5512/13, 1680 case info and a few questions...

[automatico]

Not counting cartel cases because of their specification hits and misses from one batch to the next, where does the replacement case situation stand today?

 

Case situation from the recent past from what I know (no claim for accuracy):

 

1...DW is long gone but his 55xx cases were Ok and affordable, around $200.  They were all 1680 spec, made for rlx 1570/5 date movements and 26.5mm dials.  Almost all had spring wire bezels and the case neck was a hair too small.  Some with good engraved numbers, some no numbers.  Came with two sizes of case backs, one oem (30.9mm threads) one not (30.4mm threads), everything else is the same.  Most case back letters/numbers were pretty good.  The case sides are slightly rounded, not flat.  Make good 'high mileage' watches and lower cost projects.  I've had better luck fitting domed aftmkt crystals than flat top cyclop aftmkt crystals on these cases using Clark or ST bezel kits.  No longer see them for sale new or used.  No O ring under bezel.  China made probably.

 

2...MBW/MBK cases are also long gone.  They were affordable when readily available and made to accept a rlx 1570/5 date movement and a 26.0mm dial (1680 was 26.5mm).  The case backs, crystals, and bezels were oem spec.  Laser case numbers/letters not very good.

Very good cases for projects using rlx, Eta etc movements.  Dial window in case needs to be enlarged for 1680 spec dial.  Has an O ring under the bezel like later models.  Sold mainly in Thailand, legend says they were made there.  Do not know how case prices are holding up, guessing $300 to $400 for an empty undamaged case with bezel.

 

3...Yuki cases are still around but not always up on their website.  They are high quality and priced around $700 to $800 last time I checked.

No O ring under bezel on mine.  Hardly ever see a used one for sale, guessing $400 to $500 used and undamaged.

 

4...IG44 cases are few and far between, been out of business a few years.  I snagged a new 1680 case from a member a few years ago and it is first rate, oem spec, precise machining, good numbers etc.  The case has a slight 'canoe' shape when seen from the side like some of the older 1680s.  No idea where they were made.  No O ring under bezel.  Probably go for around $500 if you could find one.      
   Example of 'canoe' shaped case:  https://www.fratellowatches.com/tbt-rolex-red-submariner/ 

 

5...Phong etc 'higher end' cases sell for $1000 and up.  Good quality.  High prices.  Better than Yuki?  Maybe yes, maybe no.  Have seen opinions both ways.

Do not know about O ring under bezel.  Still pricey when purchased used as long as not clumsily 'aged'...guessing $700 and up. 

 

Cases 1,2 have oem spec case tube threads but the machined case tube gasket area may not accept oem spec gaskets when using oem spec case tubes.  This can be a real hassle if decent WR is desired.  The fix is to machine the gasket seat.

Cases 3,4,5 will accept oem case tubes and gaskets.

 

My questions are:

1...Exactly what are the 'Vietnam' cases now being mentioned on the forum? 

2...Are they really made in Vn or like the 'Italian made' replicas from 15-20 years ago...made in China?

3...Is the fit and finish as good as MBK, Yuki etc?

4...Are they oem spec?

5...How much $$?

 

[capre]

Vn cases are the same cases as phong/mq uses only differance is that phong/mq are giving the cases a final touch up and charge heavily for their work. Imo not worth it as you will need a modder who can reshape the cases estetical since the supposed 1:1 is not true. Internal they are mostly 1:1

[Drummania]

You can get the vietnam stuff from rubyswatch. 

 

 

[e30m3]

So, the Cartel 1680 isn't even worth looking at for less than $150? What are the issues?

 

Yuki said 1680 case is discontinued, though Ruby has them for $650 (ouch). If one were willing to drop $650 on the Ruby, what's needed to get a 2846 working? Spacer? And will an overlay solve the ETA datewheel location issue?

 

I like the idea of using an MBW, but they're hard to come by and when they do, the Ruby case is a small jump in $$ more. 

[Sogeha]

A lot depends what you want. The winding crown is too low on the Cartel cases and they are far too thick. They are pretty much all the same case, so 1680 is actually a 5513 and the dial opening is too small, so won’t take the good aftermarket 1680 dials if I remember correctly. 

[thecloudhopper]

Subscribed. I’m going to watch this tread closely.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[e30m3]

Anyone have a good pic of cartel crown height vs MBW/Ruby/Rolex/etc? I don't mind a little casework, but moving the crown is waaaaaay outside my comfort zone.

[automatico]

"So, the Cartel 1680 isn't even worth looking at for less than $150? What are the issues?"

 

They are hit or miss in specs and overall quality.  Most are made for Eta 28xx or Asian '21 jewel' movements, not rolex.  Some are oem spec as far as case neck etc and will accept ST/Clark oem spec bezels, crystals etc but some are out of spec.  Most have the correct case tube threads but the cases may not be machined for oem gaskets between the case tube and case.

 

 

"Yuki said 1680 case is discontinued, though Ruby has them for $650 (ouch).  If one were willing to drop $650 on the Ruby, what's needed to get a 2846 working? Spacer?  And will an overlay solve the ETA datewheel location issue?"

 

Iirc a Yuki 1680 was that much or more up until they were discontinued.  Their 5512/13 cases were $600 each in mid 2014 with random serial numbers, special s/n were more.  They discounted $50 each on two cases when I got a 5512 and a 5513 at the same time so it made them $550 each.  The cases were top quality. 

 

An Eta 2846 is smaller in diameter than a rolex 15xx so any case made for a rolex movement will need a special spacer.  DWOs come in different versions so you will need to zero in on one that suits you and track one down.  They are a pain imho...hard to index/glue down over the original DW, then you will have to be sure there is enough room between the DWO and dial, next you have to make sure the hands mount far enough away from the dial...if not you will need a taller hour wheel, CP, center sweep pinion, hour wheel etc.  And on and on...

A 5512/13 project is much easier. 

 

 

"I like the idea of using an MBW, but they're hard to come by and when they do, the Ruby case is a small jump in $$ more."

 

True.  Since the last batch of MBK watches were over $400, an empty case will probably be that much by now.  I posted some info about MBK cases at the top of the rolex section in the stickies.

 

 

"The winding crown is too low on the Cartel cases and they are far too thick. They are pretty much all the same case, so 1680 is actually a 5513 and the dial opening is too small, so won’t take the good aftermarket 1680 dials if I remember correctly."

 

Same with MBK...they are 1680 spec cases with a 5513 spec dial window.  They are not overly thick though and the quality is first rate.

 

 

Free advice:

Find something inexpensive that you like and buy it now to wear while you go through the long drawn out process of putting a project watch together.  It may take a few months...or a year.  This is not meant to discourage anyone, it is just a word of advice from someone who has been around the block.

Example...my '1655' project has been on/off for 5+ years.

Why?

Because GMT part$ are expensive and hard to find. 

 

Looks like someone else found this out the hard way, a 1575GMT rolex movement just went for $3600 on eBay:

 

ROLEX GMT MASTER MOVEMENT Ref. 1570/1575 for GMT MASTER 1675 Explorer II, 1655

VINTAGE MOVEMENT / Fully Serviced / Sold AS IS

eBay item number:  163171371202

Ended:

Aug 06, 2018 , 10:29PM 

 

Winning bid:

US $3,600.00 

Shipping:

$50.00 Expedited Shipping

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[e30m3]

I'm going to just do the cartel case. I can't pull myself to find $650+ for something I'm going to stick a 2846 in anyway. I'll work the lugs down to where I like them, and drill out the holes to 1.25mm. I wouldn't be able to live with a 26mm dial, knowing the real deal is .5mm bigger (I know, I know, but that's what makes this stupid hobby such a rabbit hole to begin with...) That, and I want the watch to have the Rolex date position (not ETA). 

 

SO - is it not possible to SLOWLY sand out the rehaut with, say, 2000 grit, until I get the additional .5mm (I'm not sure I'm understanding what exactly the dial seat is, but am assuming it's basically where the rehaut hits the dial on the inside of the case)?

 

Assuming I do pull off my intended sanding, will the rehaut/crystal/bezel dimensions be correct with my having modified the case to accomodate the 26.5mm dial? That is, will it LOOK right? Or will the rehaut now be too thin, etc etc etc?

 

Bonus OT questions I'd love to have answers for: I bought a Sternkreuz 127 for giggles - is that a decent "top hat" to use, or do I need to also buy the Clark's? Or other? Any advice on the current best datewheel overlay (yes, I realize this will likely be a pain in the ass to install) and dial?

[hanski]

13 hours ago, e30m3 said:

I'm going to just do the cartel case. I can't pull myself to find $650+ for something I'm going to stick a 2846 in anyway. I'll work the lugs down to where I like them, and drill out the holes to 1.25mm. I wouldn't be able to live with a 26mm dial, knowing the real deal is .5mm bigger (I know, I know, but that's what makes this stupid hobby such a rabbit hole to begin with...) That, and I want the watch to have the Rolex date position (not ETA). 

 

SO - is it not possible to SLOWLY sand out the rehaut with, say, 2000 grit, until I get the additional .5mm (I'm not sure I'm understanding what exactly the dial seat is, but am assuming it's basically where the rehaut hits the dial on the inside of the case)?

 

Assuming I do pull off my intended sanding, will the rehaut/crystal/bezel dimensions be correct with my having modified the case to accomodate the 26.5mm dial? That is, will it LOOK right? Or will the rehaut now be too thin, etc etc etc?

 

Bonus OT questions I'd love to have answers for: I bought a Sternkreuz 127 for giggles - is that a decent "top hat" to use, or do I need to also buy the Clark's? Or other? Any advice on the current best datewheel overlay (yes, I realize this will likely be a pain in the ass to install) and dial?

Cool! It'l be a fun project! 

- I used 1.3mm for lug holes. Worked well. 

- I have a Yuki dial on the way. It's 26.5mm. I will update how I end up fitting it - I suspect I'll take .5mm off the dial though. 

- I have looked at Clark's and WSO crystals. Clark's is better - correct date mag, good height, and good construction. I've seen a lot of people post about using Sternkreuz but I haven't gotten one of those in person yet. I did this comparison over at another forum but haven't duplicated it here: https://www.rwg.bz/board/index.php?/topic/142676-1680-crystal-comparison-wso-clarks-jkf/

- I look forward to what other's have to say about DWO. I have seen a JK, BP, and Raffle's Dial DWO. So far, I like the BP the best - it is sharp/crisp, has open 6/9, and serifs. Raffle's Dial was the worst - kind of blotchy. 

 

On 8/7/2018 at 12:21 PM, automatico said:

Free advice:

Find something inexpensive that you like and buy it now to wear while you go through the long drawn out process of putting a project watch together.  It may take a few months...or a year.  This is not meant to discourage anyone, it is just a word of advice from someone who has been around the block.

Example...my '1655' project has been on/off for 5+ years.

Why?

Because GMT part$ are expensive and hard to find. 

I second this! I had my 1680 as my sole project for about 2-months and it was super frustrating to not be able to wear it. Now I have a 1680 and 1675 - as a project comes up on one, I will be able to wear the other. 

[capice]

following with great interest....👍

[e30m3]

38 minutes ago, mzinski said:

Cool! It'l be a fun project! 

- I used 1.3mm for lug holes. Worked well. 

- I have a Yuki dial on the way. It's 26.5mm. I will update how I end up fitting it - I suspect I'll take .5mm off the dial though. 

- I have looked at Clark's and WSO crystals. Clark's is better - correct date mag, good height, and good construction. I've seen a lot of people post about using Sternkreuz but I haven't gotten one of those in person yet. I did this comparison over at another forum but haven't duplicated it here: https://www.rwg.bz/board/index.php?/topic/142676-1680-crystal-comparison-wso-clarks-jkf/

- I look forward to what other's have to say about DWO. I have seen a JK, BP, and Raffle's Dial DWO. So far, I like the BP the best - it is sharp/crisp, has open 6/9, and serifs. Raffle's Dial was the worst - kind of blotchy. 

 

I second this! I had my 1680 as my sole project for about 2-months and it was super frustrating to not be able to wear it. Now I have a 1680 and 1675 - as a project comes up on one, I will be able to wear the other. 

Oh I have plenty of others I can wear while working on this one! 

[automatico]

"I'm going to just do the cartel case. I can't pull myself to find $650+ for something I'm going to stick a 2846 in anyway."

 

Good decision.  A $100 movement in a $700 case is...

Fill in the blank.

 

"I'll work the lugs down to where I like them, and drill out the holes to 1.25mm."

 

I usually go 1.3mm because you can not tell the difference by looking and with replicas you often need a little wiggle room.

 

"I wouldn't be able to live with a 26mm dial, knowing the real deal is .5mm bigger."

"That, and I want the watch to have the Rolex date position (not ETA)."

 

Oem spec dials will be the correct size...55xx = 26.0mm, 1680 = 26.5mm. 

All proper oem spec dials will also have the correct date offset.

 

"SO - is it not possible to SLOWLY sand out the rehaut with, say, 2000 grit, until I get the additional .5mm?"

 

It is easy, but only if you have a way to spin the case while sanding it to size.  If you sand it evenly and measure it often you are usually OK doing it by hand.

Remember...you only have to remove .25mm to make the window .5mm larger.

Maybe start with 600 grit paper because 2000 basically just polishes the surface.  Enlarging the window with 2000 would be slow going...like a parakeet eating a grindstone.  You do not want a shiny polished surface, another reason not to use 2000.

 

"Assuming I do pull off my intended sanding, will the rehaut/crystal/bezel dimensions be correct with my having modified the case to accommodate the 26.5mm dial? That is, will it LOOK right? Or will the rehaut now be too thin, etc etc etc?"

 

You can not tell the difference.  Sand the opening at a 90 degree angle to the case or you may end up with a tapered or sharp edge leading down to the dial.  A small straight 90 degree edge will not be noticeable but a change in the reflector area (rehaut) angle will be. 

Measure the case first, it may be correct to begin with.

 

"Bonus OT questions I'd love to have answers for: I bought a Sternkreuz 127 for giggles - is that a decent "top hat" to use, or do I need to also buy the Clark's? Or other?"

 

Crystals are one part that are sometimes not consistently accurate to oem spec from brand to brand and even within the same brand. 

 

If the case neck is oem spec (28.2mm), any oem spec crystal should be a light 'push fit' (by hand) down over the case neck.  It should not be tight enough to stress the crystal.  Crack!.

It should not be loose enough on the case neck to slide back and forth at all because the inner bezel will have to:

1...First, take up the slack between the case neck and crystal.

2...Second, clamp the crystal to the case neck.

Because the inner bezel is doing 'double duty' you can not accurately tell if the pressure required to press the bezel down over the crystal is from shrinking the crystal down on the case or actually clamping the crystal down.  Crystals that are loose on the case neck can also be too big for the inner bezel to start down over them evenly.

 

I have a 'T&E collection' of aftmkt crystals and go by trial and error until the fit is right.  I have had good luck with Clark and GS.

After you push the crystal down over the case neck, measure the OD with a precision digital caliper (a must have).  Then measure the ID of the inner bezel.  If the inner bezel is about .1 to .15mm smaller that the crystal it will usually be Ok.  Usually.  No guarantees.

 

This is one 'hobby' where the $pending curve can rapidly outpace the learning curve.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RickFlorida]

I still can't believe we are even having to have this discussion.  In the last 2 years my hobby has been making jewelry by designing them in either Zbrush or Matrix Gemvision (Rhino based) and then having my models professionally printed with the latest 3d printing software which is called material jetting.  Material Jetting is so precise that you could 3d print finger prints if you wanted to.

 

For the love of God and all that is mighty, let's create a team of people from this forum including myself and make 3D models of the 5513 case.  Now, I can't cast models into stainless steel, but maybe I can help with the workflow of the whole process of making a 3d model of the midcase which can then be CNC machined, etc.  At the vary least, we could have the midcase designed with just final thread cutting left which people like JMB could advice on.

 

Let's freaking do this people.   Let me give you an example of what can be done with technology.  A friend of mine wanted a treasure coin but didn't want to pay hundreds of dollars for even just a replica.   So I created an exact replica using Zbrush and then casting it in Silver.   For the Love of God.    With 3D scanning, we could high resolution scan an original 5513 mid case.

Edited August 24, 2018 by RickFlorida

[hanski]

19 minutes ago, RickFlorida said:

I still can't believe we are even having to have this discussion.  In the last 2 years my hobby has been making jewelry by designing them in either Zbrush or Matrix Gemvision (Rhino based) and then having my models professionally printed with the latest 3d printing software which is called material jetting.  Material Jetting is so precise that you could 3d print finger prints if you wanted to.

 

For the love of God and all that is mighty, let's create a team of people from this forum including myself and make 3D models of the 5513 case.  Now, I can't cast models into stainless steel, but maybe I can help with the workflow of the whole process of making a 3d model of the midcase which can then be CNC machined, etc.  At the vary least, we could have the midcase designed with just final thread cutting left which people like JMB could advice on.

 

Let's freaking do this people.   Let me give you an example of what can be done with technology.  A friend of mine wanted a treasure coin but didn't want to pay hundreds of dollars for even just a replica.   So I created an exact replica using Zbrush and then casting it in Silver.   For the Love of God.    With 3D scanning, we could high resolution scan an original 5513 mid case.

I would love to join in an contribute my skills where possible. While my last experience with 3D printing was 10-years ago, modeling and scanning intricate parts/pieces is in my wheelhouse. I took a historic, bronze building trim, measured/scanned the object, modeled it in Rhino, 3D printed, used the 3D print in a lost wax bronze casting technique, and came out with new bronze trim. Without a doubt, scanning/measuring a watch case should be no issue. Modeling is also a feasible, albeit time consuming task. 

 

I agree with this about almost all the parts. For instance, what is so hard about getting a dial correct? There are so many high-resolution, in-depth analysis of the various dials that it should be incredibly easy to produce the artwork and subsequently pad print the dial. If I only knew how to and had access to a pad printer - artwork is not an issue. I would even love to see dials produced with fired enamel - make them both aesthetically and functionally good! 

 

 

PagesfromWorkSample.pdf

[RickFlorida]

Ah, you and I should talk soon.  Maybe we can help with all of this.   Stay tuned.

 

Do you know if there are companies that will cast your 3D model into stainless steel?  I assume some do but I am only aware of jewelry and bronze type casting places.

CNC type places will involve lots of start up costs.  Ideally, we need an online company that you can upload your model to and then then they 3D print it using material jetting (fine detail) and then they cast it in stainless steel.

 

If any company does that, our workflow should be based on that with only final thread cutting, surface finishing, and getting the case neck where the crystal fits exactly 28.2mm

 left to do. The holes for where the crown tube and back case are should be left slightly too big due to shrinkage that occurs with casting metal. Maybe the cases will have to be finished by machinist who will do a final drilling and threading for where the case tube goes and the back of the case.   Another problem could be getting the case neck where the crystal fits perfectly 28.2mm.  Since castings have shrinkage, this too would have to be left slightly big and then faced off to exactly 28.2mm by a machinist with a lathe.  But...this would still be far cheaper than a Phong case.

Edited August 24, 2018 by RickFlorida

[hanski]

7 minutes ago, RickFlorida said:

Ah, you and I should talk soon.  Maybe we can help with all of this.   Stay tuned.

Looks like you edited the post - I’m guessing you clicked the pdf I attached. 

[RickFlorida]

Yes, please read above.   Sorry if we hijacked post everyone.  Our intention is to solve the problem that is in the original post.

[capice]

On 8/24/2018 at 8:14 PM, RickFlorida said:

I still can't believe we are even having to have this discussion.  In the last 2 years my hobby has been making jewelry by designing them in either Zbrush or Matrix Gemvision (Rhino based) and then having my models professionally printed with the latest 3d printing software which is called material jetting.  Material Jetting is so precise that you could 3d print finger prints if you wanted to.

 

For the love of God and all that is mighty, let's create a team of people from this forum including myself and make 3D models of the 5513 case.  Now, I can't cast models into stainless steel, but maybe I can help with the workflow of the whole process of making a 3d model of the midcase which can then be CNC machined, etc.  At the vary least, we could have the midcase designed with just final thread cutting left which people like JMB could advice on.

 

Let's freaking do this people.   Let me give you an example of what can be done with technology.  A friend of mine wanted a treasure coin but didn't want to pay hundreds of dollars for even just a replica.   So I created an exact replica using Zbrush and then casting it in Silver.   For the Love of God.    With 3D scanning, we could high resolution scan an original 5513 mid case.

sweet..... I have a friend who is architect by profession but loves watches and now builds his own brand. He has the cases and buckles printed, stunning quality...

 

https://holthinrichswatches.com/watches/ornament-1-satin-silver/

[RickFlorida]

On 8/27/2018 at 1:39 PM, capice said:

sweet..... I have a friend who is architect by profession but loves watches and now builds his own brand. He has the cases and buckles printed, stunning quality...

 

https://holthinrichswatches.com/watches/ornament-1-satin-silver/

Very cool? Who is casting this in Stainless steel for him after 3d Printing?

[capice]

On 8/30/2018 at 7:36 PM, RickFlorida said:

Very cool? Who is casting this in Stainless steel for him after 3d Printing?

fully 3d printed, no casting

[capre]

fully 3d printed, no casting

So the cases are 3d printed in SS?

[RickFlorida]

I recently purchased a 5513 replacement case from Vietnam (MQ) and I can say that it's a very good deal in my opinion.   I only purchased the midcase since it was all I needed so the price was good considering you have no choice now.  (Cartel cases are no longer spec. for fitting crystals).

 

The best part of paying for a 5513 replacement case from MQ or other high end case makers, is that you can either use an ETA adapter ring from Yuki or put a real 1520 rolex movement in them when you get the funds.

I got tired of fighting with the Cartel case and just paid for an MQ 5513 case and I love it so far.  The quality is amazing.  They even put the small cut out where the rolex movement screws slide in.  It's just like the real case as far as I can tell.

On 4/16/2019 at 3:04 PM, capre said:

 

So the cases are 3d printed in SS?

 

 

I doubt it but maybe it's possible.  Normally, 3D printed items that end up in metal are first material jet printed in castable resin or castable wax, and then the model is cast in the final metal.  However, there are one or two types of printers that create stainless steel directly.  But...... as far as I know...... Material Jetting type 3D printers have the absolute best resolution.  I make my jewelry designs using services that print my models with material jetting machines and they they cast it for me or they send me the model and I cast it in my garage.

Edited April 23, 2019 by RickFlorida

[automatico]

No doubt 3D printed cases are possible but they probably will still need quite a bit of finish machining.  Since rolex type cases/case backs can be stamped out of stainless steel sheet metal, this method is fast and cheap with only the press and various stamping dies being expensive.  You can probably stamp out a hundred rolex type mid cases in the time it takes to rough out a hand full of 3D cases.  Stamping out parts is one of the cheapest and fastest production methods ever devised and a 'job shop' that does production stamping could stamp them out for not much $$ with only the stamping dies costing very much.  Finish machining would probably cost the most of any of the operations.

Modern automated finish machining is not overly expensive but detail finishing by hand will be.

 

Powder metal cases...Seiko made a few runs of cases using powdered metal formed under heat and pressure (powder injection molding) 10 or 15 years back.  Their claim was it was easier to make intricately shaped cases.  They were Ok but nothing special, had one and traded it off...Kinetic iirc. 

 

Big $$…

I remember when 'a guy' in NYC sold stainless 'ratty dial submariners' with solid screw link bracelets and ST16 movements for $35 each 12 or 14 years ago.  It made me wonder how much it actually cost to crank them out.  He said he paid $12 each in China and bought space in a container and had them shipped over to NYC by the hundreds.  The dials were painted black but no lettering, he had that done in NYC...the reason for the 'ratty' tag.  He also had all steel DJ with pretty good dials (lettered in China), jubilee style bracelets, and ST16 for $50 or so (do not know how much they cost in China).  Same 36mm 16200 type cases you see today, they were made for ETA 2836/DG 2812 D/D movements, not 2824 size movements.  Oem spec crystals/bezels would fit and they did not have lug holes.

 

http://goceram.se/powder-injection-molding.htm