Future Of This Board Is In Danger

[Star69]

i think our community is still to little to count attention - 4000 members ...

maybe 8000 watches - i think i saw this amount of watches (in cheap) at only one tourist-beach last summer

Frank

[BONDEN]

Have you seen all the sites and shops everywhere openly selling rep bags and purses etc? How about airplane parts? Nike shoes? Watch reps are a very small part of the knock off world and will continue with little trouble.

I agree. Trouble will always be there sometimes more sometimes less but the rep world will remain and survive

And I think that this board has nothing to be afraid of

[t]

users from USA, Asia or Australia must not afraid.

But user from germany or EU should be afraid, because here in Europe are hard laws against reps.

last year was closed a german rep forum and some of the user has problems with police now.

Maybe you can buy reps in USA, Asia, Canada or else on street, beach, small markets... but here in Europe the authorities will kick your ass

you think it is a joke... no it isn´t joke. Here in europe are all authorities crazy. One example: i have ordered a genuine alligator strap on ebay. Customs held it and the geman authoritities has charge me a fine of 50.000euro. It is no joke. First time i thought maybe the seller has send me a genuine 7m alligator from Florida????

after 6 month, many letters and a good work of my lawyer and some hundret euros... it ends with a warning.

all this trouble because a $40 alligator strap. What will they do if they find all my 20 reps?

i know someone from outside EU can´t understand our afraid... but here is Europe... here is reps very DANGER

Edited January 18, 2007 by tourbillon1801

[Raijor]

What a shame - efforts would be better spent catching actual criminals such as drug dealers etc. In Canada it is not illegal to purchase or own replica merchandise.

Keep you heads down EU members.

users from USA, Asia or Australia must not afraid.

But user from germany or EU should be afraid, because here in Europe are hard laws against reps.

last year was closed a german rep forum and some of the user has problems with police now.

Maybe you can buy reps in USA, Asia, Canada or else on street, beach, small markets... but here in Europe the authorities will kick your ass

you think it is a joke... no it isn´t joke. Here in europe are all authorities crazy. One example: i have ordered a genuine alligator strap on ebay. Customs held it and the geman authoritities has charge me a fine of 50.000euro. It is no joke. First time i thought maybe the seller has send me a genuine 7m alligator from Florida????

after 6 month, many letters and a good work of my lawyer and some hundret euros... it ends with a warning.

all this trouble because a $40 alligator strap. What will they do if they find all my 20 reps?

i know someone from outside EU can´t understand our afraid... but here is Europe... here is reps very DANGER

[hambone]

Two of the biggest dealers on these boards just had their websites shutdown by attorneys from Rolex, who also froze their paypal account. They were informed that the boards are being closely monitored by these same guys gunning for reps so the topic of this post is valid and makes a point, however it has not stopped these dealers, only inconvenienced them, so who can say what the future holds. I would have to agree with Ted Kennedy when he said "Let's drive off that bridge when we come to it"

[Pugwash]

What a shame - efforts would be better spent catching actual criminals such as drug dealers etc. In Canada it is not illegal to purchase or own replica merchandise.

Two points. When they're looking for drugs, like you say, and they find counterfeit merchandise, should they ignore it? And, it may not be illegal to own or purchase, but smuggling and conspiring to smuggle counterfeit items over international borders is illegal, so unless you're buying them from a bloke down the pub, you're breaking the law.

Why do customs make our lives difficult? Because we're in an illegal hobby and we know it. If they see us while looking for bombs, weapons and drugs, they're not going to ignore us. People, we are smuggling and we should be aware that at the very least we're deliberately avoiding import duty. The sooner we realise we're not the victims here the sooner we'll stop being so complacent about it.

[fitmic]

But user from germany or EU should be afraid, because here in Europe are hard laws against reps.

In Sweden it is NOT illegal to buy replicas.

[Pugwash]

In Sweden it is NOT illegal to buy replicas.

Is smuggling contraband or counterfeits legal?

[fitmic]

Is smuggling contraband or counterfeits legal?

You mean like going to Turkey on vacation and buy 5 Armani shirts and a couple of watches?

YES! (as long it is for personal use or for your loved ones)

[Pugwash]

You mean like going to Turkey on vacation and buy 5 Armani shirts and a couple of watches?

YES! (as long it is for personal use or for your loved ones)

Fair enough. So you don't get watches stopped by customs?

[madonna]

Have had my last 2 shipments stopped by Norwegian customs but it is not SO bad.

They only get treated as any other imported goods, so I must show an acceptable copy of what I have paid for it and then pay VAT 25% + about $25 for the paperworks.

So for a $200 watch that gets stopped, I have to add $75 customs duties to get it. (Much better than loosing it altogheter or having to send it back)

[fitmic]

Fair enough. So you don't get watches stopped by customs?

They watches that are stopped, is because that the declared value is too low, even for a replica.

If you can give them a WU reciept or so, you have to pay 25% in tax of the total.

[Pugwash]

Damn, you swedes have it easy!

[fitmic]

Damn, you swedes have it easy!

Especially if you live up north with 20 hrs of darkness nowadays.

[alligoat]

Two of the biggest dealers on these boards just had their websites shutdown by attorneys from Rolex, who also froze their paypal account. They were informed that the boards are being closely monitored by these same guys gunning for reps so the topic of this post is valid and makes a point, however it has not stopped these dealers, only inconvenienced them, so who can say what the future holds.

I think Hambone hit the nail on the head here. It's the dealers who are at risk first and foremost. And it's conceivable that these forums could be next in line, but being hosted by an "offshore" provider might slow them (Rolex Attys) down, but then again, if they went after the dealers over in China, and their websites, it could be only a matter of time. I doubt they'll come after individual buyers/collectors, they'd spend to much money trying to get blood out of a turnip, and there's way too many of us, hopefully.

But I'd sure hate to spend all of my time hanging out on Timezone, those pompous 'holes would drive me crazy and I wouldn't learn one-tenth of what I learn here on these sites.

[thelawnmowerman]

I think a lot of valid replies have already been made ,but in reference to Sams comment about the boards being more low profile, I would say that he is very naive of the internet . You could be as low profile as you want to be , but if their looking for you they will find you , Simple.

I cant comment on any custom issues as I believe we have it easy in UK, or so I'm told by our dealers .

[sam_tgg]

I think Hambone hit the nail on the head here. It's the dealers who are at risk first and foremost. And it's conceivable that these forums could be next in line, but being hosted by an "offshore" provider might slow them (Rolex Attys) down, but then again, if they went after the dealers over in China, and their websites, it could be only a matter of time. I doubt they'll come after individual buyers/collectors, they'd spend to much money trying to get blood out of a turnip, and there's way too many of us, hopefully.

But I'd sure hate to spend all of my time hanging out on Timezone, those pompous 'holes would drive me crazy and I wouldn't learn one-tenth of what I learn here on these sites.

I am not sure. I think it is easier for the Rolex layers to crack boards down, that try to localizate and start process in China, for example. It is true that it would not end with the reps. It will never end.

But:

1:- I will give a lot of trouble to some people.

2.- I will make the prices go high

3.- I will make more difficult to find quality like our dealers give to us

4.- I will be easier to fall into scams, etc

About mantein low level... yes, it is complicate. If they want to find you, they would do it. But, if you sell to 200 people normal reps or If you sell to 4000 people high quality reps, I think is very different. We must understand that nowaday reps, can fool most of people, even gen owners and some of ADs. And that (in my opinion) to be dangerous to ADs

[morgan]

I have a solution for putting all the replicators out of business. Are you reading this Rolex, Panerai and Omega? STOP CHARGING SUCH IDIOTIC PRICES FOR YOUR WATCHES!!! If the reppers can knock your watch off almost 100% for what it costs to buy coffee at Starbucks for a week and make a profit?? It's just steel and a mass produced movement!

[Raijor]

In Canada it is not illegal to purchase or own replica merchandise, It is illegal to purchase or own Narcotics in Canada. I note that you are from France and perhaps your laws are different, but in Canada it is only illegal to sell replica merchandise. It may be an illegal hobby in France but in Canada the hobby is not an illegal activity for buyers and owners.

Each country has their own laws respecting copyright infringement In the U.S. it is even a violation of American copyright law to import a legit Rolex watch by mail unless you are an authorized Rolex dealer. U.S. customs will interdict and seize the offending legit Rolex when ever one is discovered. I do find it very interesting that an American can purchase a Rolex in another country and wear it home without fear of seizure, however, if coming by mail from out of country not. As long as the laws in Canada remain as they are, people in Canada are not engaging in an "illegal hobby" when they buy and own replica merchandise but Rolex et al could however bring a civil action for damages on the basis of copyright infringementagainst a buyer / owner of a fake Rolex. This action is not a criminal matter, but rather a civil one and the action would only be for monetary damages with no governmental fine or criminal record and punishment being levied. The issue is not a matter of smuggling in Canada. Value is placed on the item and duties and taxes are applied to the imported item. I have had 2 Rolex replicas purchased from Joshua that were inspected by Canadian Customs and Revenue and forwarded on to me. I imagine this is not possible in the EU generally. I really am happy to read about the replica situation in other parts of the world - it puts things into perspective for me.

The following quotation is taken from James Dowling's web site.

"Rolex & USA shipments

In an attempt to protect their trademarks Rolex USA have registered their name & designs with the US Customs. Because of this US Customs will seize all Rolex watches which have not been bought new from an authorized US retailer. There are only two possible exemptions to this rule:

When the watch has been bought overseas and is being imported by the purchaser in person and is declared to the US Customs on entry to the US. This exemption is at the discretion of the individual customs agent and normally covers only one watch per person.

If the purchaser can produce a letter from Rolex USA or the company’s attorney authorizing them to import the watch. Please note in over ten years that I have never known any collector or dealer to be able to obtain such a letter.

Because of these restrictions I am not prepared to ship ANY Rolex watches to a US address, however if you are able to provide an address outside the US or are prepared to collect the watch in person or via an agent then the transaction can proceed. Please note that the 72 hour approval period starts when your agent collects the watch, NOT when you eventually receive it."

http://www.ukwatches.com/frame.html - link to Dowling's web site

In Canada there is no such problem vis a vis importing a genuine Rolex watch either.

Cheers

Two points. When they're looking for drugs, like you say, and they find counterfeit merchandise, should they ignore it? And, it may not be illegal to own or purchase, but smuggling and conspiring to smuggle counterfeit items over international borders is illegal, so unless you're buying them from a bloke down the pub, you're breaking the law.

Why do customs make our lives difficult? Because we're in an illegal hobby and we know it. If they see us while looking for bombs, weapons and drugs, they're not going to ignore us. People, we are smuggling and we should be aware that at the very least we're deliberately avoiding import duty. The sooner we realize we're not the victims here the sooner we'll stop being so complacent about it.

[Pugwash]

Each country has their own laws respecting copyright infringement

Believe me, this has nothing to do with copyright law and that statement couldn't be further wrong. As signatories to the Berne Convention, the US and Canada share the same copyright laws as the Eurpean Union countries.

This has everything to do with trademark laws instead. In Canada, you basically adopted the British trademark law and replicas are not legal. They are trademark infringements and if the trademamrk holder chooses to act against you, you will be facing a criminal, not a civil, case. However, I assume Rolex et al choose not to enforce it as strongly in Canada, as your government isn't as open to corporate interference as the US.

[Raijor]

I think you are misinformed. Canada's national police force the RCMP makes it clear on its website that Canadian law does not make it illegal to buy or own replica merchandise if it is for personal use.

I direct you to the attached link - Royal Canadian Mounted Police Department's own web site which details legality of buying and owning Replicas:

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/fio/intellectual_e.htm

Points number 5 reads

"5. If I contact the police or the company because I think I’ve purchased a counterfeit product, can I get into trouble?

The implications of purchasing a product knowing it is counterfeit are outlined in the response to question #1. Possession of counterfeit items is not a criminal offence in Canada as long as there is no intent to distribute them."

Point number 1 reads

"1. Why should I worry about buying a counterfeit product?

First of all, if you purchase a counterfeit product, you are hurting the legitimate economy – this means lost jobs and lost tax revenue. Second, you may be funding organized crime or a terrorist group. Finally, counterfeiters spend nothing on quality control and therefore do not care about what happens to consumers who use counterfeit products such as electrical devices that catch fire, pharmaceuticals that contain no active ingredients, or children’s clothing that is not fire retardant."

Do not take my word for it that it not illegal to purchase and own counterfeit items in Canada - check out the RCMP web site.

It is not even a crime to download and copy music from the INTERNET in Canada - refer to point 6 on the RCMP web site.

"6. I have a friend who downloads music from the INTERNET. Is he breaking the law?

Downloading music for personal use is currently not a criminal offence in Canada. However, this legislation is constantly being challenged and it would be wise to check often to ensure that the laws concerning this practice have not changed"

The RCMP protocol for counterfeit investigations deals with commercial operations in this area.

"8. When does the RCMP investigate counterfeit products?

According to the RCMP's protocol with Justice Canada, our priority for investigating counterfeit products targets commercial manufacturing, importation and distribution. Investigations at the retail level are generally dealt with in the private sector through civil processes. "

As you can see for yourself the Royal Canadian Mounted Police makes it clear that in Canada it is not illegal to purchase or own replica merchandise if it is for personal use and not for re-sale.

Cheers

Believe me, this has nothing to do with copyright law and that statement couldn't be further wrong. As signatories to the Berne Convention, the US and Canada share the same copyright laws as the Eurpean Union countries.

This has everything to do with trademark laws instead. In Canada, you basically adopted the British trademark law and replicas are not legal. They are trademark infringements and if the trademamrk holder chooses to act against you, you will be facing a criminal, not a civil, case. However, I assume Rolex et al choose not to enforce it as strongly in Canada, as your government isn't as open to corporate interference as the US.

Edited January 19, 2007 by Raijor

[gran]

Yeah! The end is near sam_tgg

[Pugwash]

I think you are misinformed. Canada's national police force the RCMP makes it clear on its website that Canadian law does not make it illegal to buy or own replica merchandise if it is for personal use.

Thank you for clarifying this fact. However, I was talking about buying replicas from the forum, as that is the entire point of this thread. My apologies for not making that clearer, even though in all my previous posts I mentioned it.

Your links clarify that point here: "According to the RCMP's protocol with Justice Canada, our priority for investigating counterfeit products targets commercial manufacturing, importation and distribution. Investigations at the retail level are generally dealt with in the private sector through civil processes."

They do point out that it will be a civil and not criminal case at the retail level though, so I willingly concede that point.

[jonthebhoy]

WUR DOOMED WUR AW DOOMED CAPTAIN MAINWARING!

[Raijor]

Thank you for clarifying this fact. However, I was talking about buying replicas from the forum, as that is the entire point of this thread. My apologies for not making that clearer, even though in all my previous posts I mentioned it.

Your links clarify that point here: "According to the RCMP's protocol with Justice Canada, our priority for investigating counterfeit products targets commercial manufacturing, importation and distribution. Investigations at the retail level are generally dealt with in the private sector through civil processes."

They do point out that it will be a civil and not criminal case at the retail level though, so I willingly concede that point.

Thanks for clarification and no concession necessary. Different jurisdictions have different priorities.

Cheers