Submariner build questions

[Mattjames84]

Ok so I been going about everything backwards like taking stupid chances on reps hoping something about them would be good and something I could work off of.. so I'm going to do this a bit differently. First I'd like to build a sub based off an ETA????. not sure what ref I wanna do yet, all depends on what I can find for a case I can afford which everything will most likely be second hand since I don't have a very big budget. So with all that said. My first question would be,

what's the best case to build something from that will accept an eta and for what ref?

Second question is who's got the best dial.

Last question to start this post off is, since my budget is so limited to less then $1000, is there anyone that has any parts they wouldn't mind donating to help the cause?

[alligoat]

You're still going backwards! First you need to pick a model. Secondly, you probably ought to just buy a rep that you like and then figure out what mods you can/want to do to improve it.

And remember, there's two types of etas these days- swiss and clone. Anything coming from the rep mfrs these days is probably clone, but a clone can be serviced and do ok- it's just not the same level of quality as a swiss eta. 

A while back I looked at a JF16610, it has the 3135 copy movement- the SH3135. So you buy the JF 16610 and then you have to get the movement serviced (tickleshoes or misiekeped) and spend maybe $400 with a gen datewheel. At that point you have a pretty nice watch with $850 or so in it.

Or you can go with the 116610 V9- that is probably a pretty decent watch OOTB, so you just enjoy. Maybe at some point you put a gen crystal in it, maybe you don't. If you get it with the 2824-2 or 2836-2 clone, maybe you have to service it after a while- no big deal- maybe $100-150.

The options are pretty much unlimited, but it will be a lot easier when you pick which model you like first.

 

[denimhead]

Or go the classic 5513 route, no date wheel replacement issues. A cartel base model with the Asian 2836 will be a nice start. Make sure it has the 93150 stamped bracelet. http://www.trustytime.club/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_11&products_id=14419

1. Replace the dial with a Helenarou one, comes in 3 variants of aging to choose from and already has the eta feet position.

2. Have the lug holes drilled so you can use gen spec fat spring bars, you ideally also need to reduce the inner crown guards so the gen crown has a gap either side.

3. change the plexi for a clarks T19 one, much nicer. Or just leave the rep one and age it a bit

4. Swap out the crown and tube for Gen, makes a big difference as the rep ones are all too tall in height.

5. Buy some WSO 580 endlinks off ebay

Hope that helps

DH 

[alligoat]

Excellent advice DH. I did something similar with the cartel 5513 with stubby cgs- filed the cgs inside and out, filed the seat down between the cgs, installed a 702 crown and tube, drilled the lugholes. It's still running fine on the dg2813 and is somewhat WR- I haven't been past lite swimming.

A 2846 would be a good low beat swap on the TT 5513.

[Mattjames84]

Thank for the advice so far, and I'm glad you guys suggested a 5513 because that's what I was thinking. How close to gen is an mbw case because I have a stock mbw watch in in the works which already has a gen crystal. It's a member here.. is that a good start.. as far as the movement it doesn't matter if its Asian or swiss ETA  because iv read that they are pretty much the same and everything interchanges

Does $450 for a non running mbw watch head only with gen crystal sound like an alright deal? This will be my first build so I'm not gonna go to crazy

[denimhead]

Hello again

Has the MBW case had the lug holes drilled? Also might want to check about the dial appature as I'm sure at one point a gen spec 26mm dial was too small. Dont hold me to that as I cant really remember. Honestly the cartel case has come on quite a bit since we were buying MBW subs  in 2008 and they offer a really great base. Gen plexi not really sure in terms of value these days. But If you want to swim in it then my personal option would be to go for a new Clark or sternkreuz plexi.

Cheers 

[Mattjames84]

Thanks denim. And I don't think they have been drilled.. before I pull any triggers I'll check out a cartel case and prices. They accept gen crown and tube right... I was told the mbw case was from the last stock in 2015

Can someone link me up to the cartel sight?

[denimhead]

Hi again

I've included a link for you to Andrew at trustytime  if you have a look at my original post

Cheers 

 

 

 

Hello again

Has the MBW case had the lug holes drilled? Also might want to check about the dial appature as I'm sure at one point a gen spec 26mm dial was too small. Dont hold me to that as I cant really remember. Honestly the cartel case has come on quite a bit since we were buying MBW subs  in 2008 and they offer a really great base. Gen plexi not really sure in terms of value these days. But If you want to swim in it then my personal option would be to go for a new Clark or sternkreuz plexi.

Cheers 

[Mattjames84]

Oh sorry I didn't see that link, and its funny cause I was just looking at that

[alligoat]

Does $450 for a non running mbw watch head only with gen crystal sound like an alright deal?

 

I'd probably get the cartel watch and save the money for some mods. An MBW has to have the lugs drilled, cgs trimmed, and a gen crown and tube (or the Athaya 702 crown and tube assembly) are needed. Plus with the cartel watch you get a working movement and a bracelet. 

[Mattjames84]

Yeah I'm gonna do that, so that way I can wear it while I modify it

[Mattjames84]

Is a vintage 5513 low beat? When did Rolex go high beat and what watches or should I ask after what year?

[capice]

41 minutes ago, Mattjames84 said:

Is a vintage 5513 low beat? When did Rolex go high beat and what watches or should I ask after what year?

it is....

In 1957, Rolex set about replacing their 1000 series of calibers. These were the first family of movements created entirely in-house by the manufacturer. It also introduced the next generation. Rather than launching the 1500 series in a great sweeping confusion across the board, they phased them in gradually over a number of years. These ran concurrently with the previous mechanisms in several models. They introduced Rolex Caliber 1520 and 1530 into this new wave.

The Rolex Caliber 1530 was the first of the new wave. It was the base caliber upon which the rest of the range would be founded.

The Rolex Caliber 1530

As a movement, the 1530 represented a major reworking on its predecessor. This explained Rolex’s tiptoeing approach towards its introduction. There was a host of new technology that still had to prove its worth out in the real world.

Rolex originally launched it as a 17-jewel movement. Additionally, it went through a number of significant upgrades itself during its successful run before retiring in 1965. Joining the first iteration, they also released it in 25 and 26 jewel versions. Its initial butterfly rotor graduated to the familiar half-moon type. Also, they replaced the brass colored gears with the red, Teflon-coated variety we generally see today.

While extremely precise and reliable, they considered the Caliber 1530 very much a workhorse caliber. Therefore very few were submitted for chronometer certification. Instead, Rolex fitted the movement into several of their non-chronometer models, such as the Air-King and the earliest versions of the Submariner, watches they initially deemed not to need mechanisms that had passed the rigorous COSC tests.

However, ask any watchmaker today what in their opinion is the best movement Rolex ever produced, and many will still say the Cal. 1530. Its lack of certification was down to its relative difficulty in regulating consistently rather than its overall accuracy. Before the innovation of Microstella screws were first introduced in 1959 on the Cal. 1565, the previous screw balance was far trickier to adjust, especially considering the volume of movements Rolex produce.

A comparatively low frequency caliber—18,000bph instead of the standard 28,800bph of all modern day Rolexes—the Cal. 1565 produced a five beat per second tick rather than the smoothly sweeping eight.

The Rolex Caliber 1520

In 1963, in a curious and extremely un-Rolex-like move, the Cal. 1530 started its own process of being phased out. Rolex replaced it by the less advanced Cal. 1520. As the numbers suggest, it represented something of a backwards step for the usually progressive thinking company.

It was centered on the same architecture as the Cal. 1530, and shared an identical base plate. However, it had several key differences, many of which were designed to keep its manufacturing costs to a minimum.

Rolex only produced it with a stick regulator, rather than with the Microstella system that had found its way onto the departing 1530 by the end of its run. The Breguet overcoil of the majority of Rolex’s output was substituted for a traditional flat hairspring, and it was originally released as a 17-jewel movement, although 25 and 26-jewel versions joined the range later in the production cycle.

An Impressive Performer

However, even with all the cost cutting measures, the Rolex Caliber 1520 was still an impressive performer. Rolex never intended to submit it for chronometer certification. With the full weight of the company’s engineering legacy behind it, it provided the brand’s ‘Precision’ models with a beautifully built and highly accurate engine.

Its increased frequency, 19,800bph up from the previous 18,000bph, gave it an extra boost in both timekeeping ability and resilience to shocks, and it remains a favorite among watch repairers for its workmanship and ease of maintenance.

Along with its date function equipped counterpart, the Cal. 1525, the Rolex Caliber 1520 powered Rolex’s limited selection of non-chronometer watches until 1980. By then, all but the Air-King had gained the certification and the 3000 series of calibers had arrived, becoming the standard issue for Rolex until the present day.

[Mattjames84]

Wow thank you capice you guys are awesome

[Mattjames84]

Well I just bought the vintage no date 5513 from trusty like you suggested denimhead. Hopefully my payment and everything went ok.. can't wait to get it

However I think I'm gonna need to find a 93150 bracelet course I think the one that comes with it might be different

[Mattjames84]

I'm wrong, it's the correct stamp

[capice]

you are welcome...

[automatico]

"How close to gen is an mbw case because I have a stock mbw watch in in the works which already has a gen crystal."

 

MBW cases are basically 1680 spec cases with a dial seat/window made to accommodate a 26.0mm 55xx dial, not a proper 26.5mm 1680 dial.  They will accept an ETA 2836/46 or rlx 1575 date movement.

More details in the rolex sticky.

 

Drilling lug holes...

In my experience all MBW/MBK cases I have (4) were Ok to drill out to 1.25/1.30mm because the original spring bar holes were not too close to the top or bottom of the lugs.  I have seen some cartel cases that have the holes off enough to get very close or even into the bevel at the top of the lugs when drilled out.

Sometimes you need to trim the curves in the hoods (bracelet end pieces) so they will fit up against the case, not rub the rotating bezel, and allow the spring bar to pass through.  Many if not most of the distances between the case band and lug holes are off a little bit from oem as are aftmkt hoods so the hoods usually need to be trimmed and fitted.  Be sure to also trim the rounded bottom edges of the hoods if needed so the case back can be r/r and not get in a bind with the hoods.

 

"Is a vintage 5513 low beat?"

 

All 1530, 1535 (Date), 1555 (DD) and 1560, 1565 (Date), 1565 GMT etc. are 18000 bph.  All 1520/1525 (Date), 1556 (DD) 1570, 1575 (Date), 1575 GMT, 1580 Mg etc. are 19800 bph.

Parts swapping can disguise a movement such as a 1560 with a 1570 autowind assembly etc.  Many 1560 are easy to spot because they have a 'curb feeler' arm over the hairspring to keep it from getting tangled up.  The 1520 is also easy to spot because it has a flat hairspring and regulator where the 1530, 1560, 1570 etc. have a Breguet overcoil.

 

"Does $450 for a non running mbw watch head only with gen crystal sound like an alright deal?"

 

Not too bad (imho) if the case is in first class condition and has not been 'artificially aged'...this often ruins them imho.  The genuine crystal helps too.  A non running eta clone is basically junk unless you want to have it repaired and any swiss ETA that came in an MBK will  probably be 28800 bph so you are basically buying a case, crystal, and dial.  With a n/r swiss ETA you are probably better off to the tune of $50 +/- than with a n/r etaclone.

MBK dials...5512/13 dials have usually not been modified and will be Ok but many 1680 dials have been roughly ground down to fit into the 26.0mm dial seat and the dial paint may be chipped or peeling around the edge. 

Later MBK 55xx and 1680 cases are exactly the same inside and outside, do not know about earlier cases.

[Mattjames84]

Awesome info.. so I'm gonna do a swiss 2846 in the watch I just bought.. if got pics of the original watch I wanna clone

[RickFlorida]

After struggling with cartel cases, which don't even have good specs anymore I heard... I decided to shell out 500 bucks for a Vietnam MQ 5513 replacement case.  The idea is that you could use a real rolex 1520 movement later down the road but for now I can install a ETA 28XX using the Yuki Adapter ring.

 

The struggles to make the bezel and crystals work correctly are just so great that you mind as well spend 500 or 800 bucks on a quality 5513 case/set.

[Mattjames84]

Thanks rick.. yeah I would have liked to find one of those cases but had no clue where to start. Where'd you get yours

[alligoat]

http://vintagewatchesmq.com/minhquy/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=853&category_id=96&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=1

Minh Quy is a dealer over in Saigon. He can be a little tricky to deal with, but I think he eventually comes thru in the end.

Rubyswatch is another Vietnamese dealer- check her out also

http://rubyswatch.com/Products/watch-cases/sub-c5513

Phong also has the 5513 case but he's probably quite a bit more expensive- around $1000 maybe

[Mattjames84]

So my new 5513 is coming in tomorrow what was super quick.. already have a ft first dial with watching hands on order. Quick questing for the experts.. do the lugs on this watch look to high, are they supposed to be centered more or no?

[Porterjrm]

So my new 5513 is coming in tomorrow what was super quick.. already have a ft first dial with watching hands on order. Quick questing for the experts.. do the lugs on this watch look to high, are they supposed to be centered more or no?

I don’t have an answer for you BUT..

Could you add a few more pics and details? Which 5513 did you go with?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mattjames84]

Oh I'm sorry, it's from trusty time. Vintage non date