Chronus Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 Is that equipment an expensive complication, or just a simple device like a jeweler's hand-held diamond-tester? Yep a simple hand-held diamond-tester, like sssurfer has described before. It works too, I have tested against genuine crystals, and then tried the glass in the window etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vmena Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 Like posted in TRC: This has been discussed many times and always some one says: "We are dealing with "FAKE" illegal goods"... We all know, but then we are also dealing with "illegal dealers"... and when I say illegal dealers I'm talking about the level of confidence we can have in them. Watches are fakes, but my money is "gen" and they (specially within these forums) must be very clear and transparent with us. We also make a lot of things for them, trying to protect them from "crazy noobs", "paypal claiming maniacs", etc. We deserve they sell what they advertise. And they must (at least once) personally verify their watches and time to time check a lot of them again... my .2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddhead Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 And I take Neil's point, half the time dealers are taking the factory description. Unlike many here, I am satified with the status quo and focus more on having honest relationships with the dealers themselves who are trustworthy. And lest you forget the unwashed masses who believe all this stuff are subsidizing our habit. Someone has to overpay for stuff. You won't if you do your homework. I say this in jest but there is some truth to this. Which to me raises another interesting point. Look, the dealers on this board are reputable and honest. And some undergo vigilent QC processes before shipping. Good for them. But in other cases, we too often excuse less than exemplary QC, and breakage issues by rationalizing that most dealers drop ship. I do not mean to sound unreasonable but as a consumer is that really my problem? Just as it is my responsiblilty to pick my dealer, it is the dealer's responsiblity pick their supplier. Or find some other way to ensure the quality of the goods they ship. My job is to pay for the watch. The dealer's jop is to deliver a working product that looks and perfoms to the standards it was advertised at. How they do it is not my concern. I work with the dealer, not the supplier. The dealer's job is to find the watch understanding that the quality of the merchandise wll factor into his/her reputation as a provider. They are accountable for managing the sales process. One final editorial comment. This board's management rightfully goes to great lenghts to not endorse specific dealers. None the less, we as participants implicitly endorse the dealers who pariticpate here through our favorable review. We ofen encourage new visitors to use these dealers , and castigate those who go elsewhere and get ripped off, sometimes going as indicating they deserved it. Fair enough. But if that is the track we are going to take, we owe it to the community at large to ensure that standards around proof in adverstising are maintained. Look, let me re-emphesize.. by and large the dealers who participate here deliver fair value... a good product at a fair price. But the marketing aspect of the process can at times border on the mis-leading. Terms like "1:1", "perfect", "Asian ETA" are confusing and inappropriate. Maybe it is the result of english being a second lannguage to some, but once one dealer uses those therms, the exagerations tend to escalate as others feel the pressure to follow suit or run the risk that consumers will not recognize their products as carrying eqaul value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted January 20, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 One final editorial comment. This board's management rightfully goes to great lenghts to not endorse specific dealers. None the less, we as participants implicitly endorse the dealers who pariticpate here through our favorable review. We ofen encourage new visitors to use the dealers here, and castigate those who go eleswhere and get ripped off, sometimes going as indicating they deserved it. Fair enough. But if that is the track we are going to take, we owe it to the community at large to ensure that standards around proof in adverstising are maintained. Yes, I agree. I hope my post doesn't lose a dealer any sales, and it's not specifically aimed at Josh and Trusty, even though they are the most lax on their terminology, yet if a dealer keeps deliberately misleading us, their best advertisers, this will have a knock-on effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chronus Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 And I take Neil's point, half the time dealers are taking the factory description. Unlike many here, I am satified with the status quo and focus more on having honest relationships with the dealers themselves who are trustworthy. Yes, I correspond with dealers before making a purchase where possible. Some dealers have warned me off some watches before saying the movement is unreliable or it is a copy movement etc. or if a watch is not genuine titanium, or midlinks are plated etc. as well as the "synthetic sapphire" thing. They usually know I don't want mineral crystal. Dialogue is always the best way here I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nebakanezzar Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 Little White Lies We're Supposed To Tolerate? So you mean, like, honor amongst theives and all that? LOL! sometimes you guys really make'a me raff! ...though I am kinda suprised by this thread coming from Pug.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddhead Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 Yes, I agree. I hope my post doesn't lose a dealer any sales, and it's not specifically aimed at Josh and Trusty, even though they are the most lax on their terminology, yet if a dealer keeps deliberately misleading us, their best advertisers, this will have a knock-on effect. I hope not to. Please see this as constructive criticism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted January 20, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 ...though I am kinda suprised by this thread coming from Pug.... Really? Yet you've seen all my "It's not a Lemania" posts and my "That's no ETA" posts, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nebakanezzar Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 (edited) Really? Yet you've seen all my "It's not a Lemania" posts and my "That's no ETA" posts, right? No, I guess I havent. I guess I just assumed, based on the threads of yours I have read (and enjoyed), that you had enough common sense to not beleive everything you read, and to realize the reality of this little hobby we all enjoy... Edited January 20, 2007 by Nebakanezzar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted January 20, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 No, I guess I havent. I guess I just assumed, based on the threads of yours I have read (and enjoyed), that you had enough common sense to not beleive everything you read, and to realize the reality of this little hobby we all enjoy... Yes, but I also have the blind ignorance to think I can make a difference. We let them do this and it is getting worse. Beginmariner? That's no ETA movement, yet the mail from Josh said "Due to the current serious shortage of swiss movt, I have called in 100pcs of Swiss Eta 2836-2 complete watches to salvage the swiss 2836-2 new movt to cope with my daily demands of my sales in daydate and datejust. The left behind swiss cases with sapphire crystal, i have install with Asian Eta 2813, 21600bph movt and is now offering these at special free shipping price of USD 108/-" ETA-2813? wtf? How many noobs bought these thinking they were getting a slow-beat ETA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chronus Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 Look there maybe certain things that go to far, i think calling a segull movement an ETA is wrong, i have said so on the other threads like this. Remember the "closed-factory" Bond SMP? Turns out that had a copy 2892 movement. From what I understand these are still working well though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted January 20, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 Remember the "closed-factory" Bond SMP? Turns out that had a copy 2892 movement. From what I understand these are still working well though. Yes, but it's still not an ETA2892, though. Does it take gen ETA parts in case of breakdown? You buy an ETA watch in the hope that the parts are out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nebakanezzar Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 (edited) Yes, but I also have the blind ignorance to think I can make a difference. We let them do this and it is getting worse. Beginmariner? That's no ETA movement, yet the mail from Josh said "Due to the current serious shortage of swiss movt, I have called in 100pcs of Swiss Eta 2836-2 complete watches to salvage the swiss 2836-2 new movt to cope with my daily demands of my sales in daydate and datejust. The left behind swiss cases with sapphire crystal, i have install with Asian Eta 2813, 21600bph movt and is now offering these at special free shipping price of USD 108/-" ETA-2813? wtf? How many noobs bought these thinking they were getting a slow-beat ETA? common, we all know any movement that begins with "Asian" or contains "Asian" somewhere in the description, is some sort of asian copy....and if we cant figure that out, we dont belong here... same with crysatls, if it says anything other than "Saphire" before and/or after "Saphire", such as "Synthetic Sapphire" than warning flags go up in my head, and I ask questions.....the only time I have scene a problem with crystals labeled as "Saphire" not being "Sahire" is on the domed crystals (127, 212 ect.), and on those, I belive the dealres were miss informed by the manufacturers, and not "lying" to us. And as far as 1:1, the only true 1:1 is a gen...if you truly think you are buying a 1:1 or "perfect" $2-300 copy of a $5-10,000 watch you are either stupid or a fool... And as for newbs, they need to do more reasearch before buying, and have realistic expectations....things could be worse for them, they could be paying $600-1,000 for lesser quality reps on the scam sites. Edited January 20, 2007 by Nebakanezzar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fitmic Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 You buy an ETA watch in the hope that the parts are out there. Exactly!!! For me, that's the main reason buying replicas with ETA movements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted January 20, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 common, we all know any movement that begins with "Asian" or contains "Asian" somewhere in the description, is some sort of asian copy....and if we cant figure that out, we dont belong here... Not so. There is a common term Asian ETA vs Swiss ETA that's already in use. It's used for the nickel vs gold-coloured movements elsewhere. same with crysatls, if it says anything other than "Saphire" before and/or after "Saphire", such as "Synthetic Sapphire" than warning flags go up in my head, and I ask questions... Once again, you're going against common use here. The scientific term, used by everyone on the planet apart from Joshua and Andrew, is Synthetic Sapphire meaning boule-grown Sapphire. It's as stupid as calling digital photos Scans. You're using a term that means something outside of this site to mean something different here. This is why I know when I get a Synthetic Sapphire off TTK, I'm getting boule-grown sapphire. If we're supposed to be able to compare beforehand what we're buying, we have to ensure everyone is using the right terms. I don't like being lied to, and I especially don't like being called naive for wanting it to stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gran Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 I like this thread thank you for being so forceful on this topic Pug The reason for giving "misleading" or "untrue" information about a watch is likely in order to charge a higher price or to make people more interested in buying it....quality matters but in some cases the dealer/seller just does know (or even care) if the watch has a bona fide ETA in it or just a nice Asian movement...white lies = money g. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nebakanezzar Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 Once again, you're going against common use here. The scientific term, used by everyone on the planet apart from Joshua and Andrew, is Synthetic Sapphire meaning boule-grown Sapphire. It's as stupid as calling digital photos Scans. You're using a term that means something outside of this site to mean something different here. This is why I know when I get a Synthetic Sapphire off TTK, I'm getting boule-grown sapphire. Ok, you can remain to live in you perfect little world where every term means exactly what you want it to mean, and live with disapointment. or you can join us in the real world, where language and cultural differences exist, and to survive, you need to be a bit of a skeptic, read between the lines, and ask questions... Not so. There is a common term Asian ETA vs Swiss ETA that's already in use. It's used for the nickel vs gold-coloured movements elsewhere. I have never scene a dealer advertise a movement as Asian ETA when refering to it being nickle or gold colored..I challange you to show me one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted January 20, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 Ok, you can remain to live in you perfect little world where every term means exactly what you want it to mean, and live with disapointment. or you can join us in the real world, where language and cultural differences exist, and to survive, you need to be a bit of a skeptic, read between the lines, and ask questions... In the real world, synthetic sapphire means sapphire. This isn't a cultural term open to interpretation. Do you check every bottle labelled "water" to make sure it actually is water? As for Asian vs Swiss ETA, check google. No dealers here use the term for the colour, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvt Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 Nonskeder makes some excellent and very true points, as does Pug. What this shows is sadly a sort of loss of inocence. People want to fool themselves, not just in believeing that these, generally speaking, poorly made and inespensive watches are somehow equal (or even better than) the genuines they ape, but also in believing that the dealers are somehow our buddies. We like to think that we are the smart folks, in a little private club getting the REAL low down on these goods. We are getting the truth while the poor idiot masses are oput there going to Perfect Swiss web sites and getting robbed. Well the truth is tha WE ARE THE IDIOT MASSES. You see, we are accepting lies, we are fooling ourselves, and we are somehow willing for forgive this deception simply because we are being ripped off less badly than some others may be. A lie is a lie is a lie... period. If you tell me a watch has a genuine ETA 2892 in it, and in fact it has a cheap Asian copy, then you have lied. There is no secret code there, there is now wink and a nod, it is a lie so a fake watch with a fake movement can be sold for more than it otherwise would merit. Nonskeder has said it, it begins with a lie, it ends with a lie, and we buy then to lie. Lie to ourselves, lie to others, whatever... all the same. So while I agree 100% with Pug that we ARE being deceived I also agree with Nonskeder that asking a liar to just stop lieing to us because we want to have special inside connections, well that is a pipe dream. There are those few dealers who state facts, warts and all, and it is pretty damn easy to find them. The others, the ones who lie to our faces and laugh at our backs... they will never change. So you can choose to still buy from them, and you can choose to try and decipher what is truth and what is fiction, but you cannot deny the facts that you are being lied to every bit as much as the guy on the street corner is. And BTW, the vaunted old factory Bond SMP that were sold as having genuine ETA 2892s in them are NOT running well. It would not exactly be impressive if a watch managed to run 2-3 years anyway, but that is not even the case. Mine dies shortly after getting it, I have had conversations with The Zigmeister who said his dies and the movement was "junk" which he replaced with a gen, and I know three othersd who have also had the movement die in less than 6 months. And remember, we paid for a gen movement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted January 20, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 Nonskeder makes some excellent and very true points, as does Pug. What this shows is sadly a sort of loss of inocence. People want to fool themselves, not just in believeing that these, generally speaking, poorly made and inespensive watches are somehow equal (or even better than) the genuines they ape, but also in believing that the dealers are somehow our buddies. The emperor has no clothes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherrington Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 Ummmmm...I see Josh and Andrew are conspicuous by their absence. Be nice to hear from them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FxrAndy Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 Ok, you can remain to live in you perfect little world where every term means exactly what you want it to mean, and live with disapointment. or you can join us in the real world, where language and cultural differences exist, and to survive, you need to be a bit of a skeptic, read between the lines, and ask questions... You dont seem to get it do you what we are asking the dealers to do is just tell US the truth, if it is mineral glass then call it that, if it is Saphire then we all know it is synthetic because that is what it is, and if it is a chiss/swinesa ETA then it is an ETA on the other hand if it is an asian movement running at 28800 then we will be happy if it is advertised as that. If ford advertised a V8 but you got a V6 you would be Pi**ed wouldent you, unless when you read between the lines you half expect to get a V6 when it is advertised as a V8? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nebakanezzar Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 In the real world, synthetic sapphire means sapphire. This isn't a cultural term open to interpretation. Do you check every bottle labelled "water" to make sure it actually is water? I do infact, because there are infact different types/grades of bottled water all labeld as water...some is spring water, some is distiled water, some has additives ect. but this is not the real world. the reality of this world is, this is an underground criminal activity..dealing with people of a different culture who speak a different language... As for Asian vs Swiss ETA, check google. No dealers here use the term for the colour, however. thats my point exactly Pug, here on this forum, you need to understand that Asian in the discription of a movement means not swiss. but common Pug and fess up, you see asian in the dicription of a movement on a $150 chinese rep...in the back of your minds you know it is not going to be swiss...weather it be the term asian or the low price, you know...you just choose to belive what you want to beleive... from what I have read here, we arent even sure the true Swiss ETA reps are truly Swiss ETA. the reason being the movement has to be put together in switzerland to be a true Swiss ETA, and it is thought these movements are put together in china...(please correct me if I am wrong on this) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted January 20, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 but common Pug and fess up, you see asian in the dicription of a movement on a $150 chinese rep...in the back of your minds you know it is not going to be swiss...weather it be the term asian or the low price, you know...you just choose to belive what you want to beleive... Well, obviously. However, I'm not the kind of person we're supposed to be warning of scams. And on the whole Swiss thing, that's another can of worms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gran Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 The emperor has no clothes. but he got plenty of replicas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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