I wonder why, I wonder why...

[automatico]

Here are a few things I have wondered about for years, ever since the 'top of the line' replica vintage rolex cases came upon the scene 20+ years ago and the art of laser welding cases has become a welcomed/detested fact of the collector's life:

 

Q1...How could anyone (including 'rolexperts and purists') be able to tell a new or 'like new' high grade replica vintage rlx case from a new or like new original case IF the case shape is 'right on the money' and the case back stampings and letters/numbers between the lugs are exactly the same as OEM and match the assumed year of production?

A1...My answer is no one could really tell for sure.

Q2...Why is that?

A2...Because I have seen some cases that have fooled everyone who has examined them, and this includes some highly ranked 'experts'.  This was quite a few years ago btw.

Something else...I have seen '444' replacement cases called out as being Fake! and who really knows if no 'proof' of it being genuine is provided?  Maybe they are, maybe they are not.

Q3...Why would a 'dedicated, highly skilled forger' not just buy the best replica case they could get and detail it to match an OEM case using serial numbers from a damaged original case?

A3...They have most likely been doing it for years.  

Q4...Why would I say that?

A4...See my first answer above.

Q5...Why is it when a 'refurbished' case may in reality have been a rotted out piece of junk is considered to be 'correct and genuine'?

A5...Because they are 'purists' and if the case in question is assumed to be more than 50% 'original virgin material'... it's just Fine and Dandy.

The answer above is just a guess of course but from what I have seen and read, most of the laser welded aka 'refurbished' cases are accepted by the 'rolexperts/purists' as being Ok.  

 

All the above is the reason why I can be Ok with MBK/DW/Yuki/IG44/JKF cases.   

I wonder why I wonder.   

[freddy333]

A couple of thoughts - As long as the text between the lugs & inside the caseback are engraved/stamped (as opposed to laser etched or similar), I would not be able to conclusively say a case or caseback is gen. It has been 30+ years since the last time I saw a NOS gen case or dial for sale. Do the math.

[automatico]

"It has been 30+ years since the last time I saw a NOS gen case or dial for sale. Do the math."

 

Yeah, not many around for sure.  What I was getting at are 'refurbished' cases that appear to be in maybe 85% to 90% condition with excellent dials etc.  This is where most of the deception will take place imho.  I used a nos case/watch compared to a super pro refurb as an example of how good a highly accurate and detailed replica case could be.

 

I believe a refurbished or replica case could be made as good as needed, all the way from average to nos condition using modern restoration techniques and a high level of skill.  Same goes for modifying a high grade replica case.

 

Nos...

Have two nos rolex from the 1970s/1980s...6430 Speedking, 6694 OD, and a 'like new' 1603 DJ.  Bought them new from AD, never wore the first two, wore the DJ a few times.

Also have three nos 1016 dials...2 tritium, one Luminova signed T<25 and a lot of other nos parts left from earlier days in the hobby...dials, clasps, hands, bracelets etc, one nos no hack 1575, auto-wind parts, crowns etc.  Plus a few cases that would be considered 90%+.  No 55xx, GMT etc.

I will admit to being a little bit crazy though.   

[Timelord]

22 hours ago, automatico said:

Here are a few things I have wondered about for years, ever since the 'top of the line' replica vintage rolex cases came upon the scene 20+ years ago and the art of laser welding cases has become a welcomed/detested fact of the collector's life:

 

Q1...How could anyone (including 'rolexperts and purists') be able to tell a new or 'like new' high grade replica vintage rlx case from a new or like new original case IF the case shape is 'right on the money' and the case back stampings and letters/numbers between the lugs are exactly the same as OEM and match the assumed year of production?

A1...My answer is no one could really tell for sure.

 

I wonder why I wonder.   

 Very valid points!  I have been always sceptical for decades about this very whole topic !

 

I guess that at some point we draw the line psychologically as to the balance of probabilities of what may be beyond reasonable doubt to what is the real deal or not!  
 

Most of this horological subject is predominantly based on the the preowned  and vintage market!   So those that are comfortable in giving the benefit of the doubt on what is highly likely to be real or not continue to sail on! 
 

Lets  be honest that unless you have walked out of an authorised dealer with a new timepiece with seals on it, then you will always have that slimmest shadow of doubt as to the origin of what you have!  Even walking out of an authorised dealer is not  an absolute certainty either!   Why?  When I bought my last new genuine? Datejust from the local authorised dealer some 20 years ago, she ( some 20 year old gorgeous looking saleswoman) removed the seals off my watch while getting the boxes and paperwork ready for me! She also said that I had a cooling  off period to return it back within a certain time  frame if not worn,  which I do not remember what it was!  I could have easily changed the case with a replica case that would have been perfectly worked on it with serial numbers and  all!  Very Difficult to do but not impossible!

 

Therefore I came to peace of mind that if I was to be part of this hobby, I would either forever put any doubts out of my head and enjoy or pull out and move onto a different hobby. If it smells like a dog, barks like a dog , looks like a dog and licks you or bites you like a dog, then it must be a dog!    So if  perfect forger can replicate a case to the point that it will pass the authorised service centre, then I will accept it as such and forever hold my peace!  Let’s be honest that it is apiece of manufactured item and not a diamond nor a rare Opel, nor gold that has been forged. 

 

Many times I have even asked myself if both items  are made from the same place and just marketed different!   In today’s world with the exposure of past scandals that we never knew about, nothing surprises me!!
 

if it is as good as the original, then all chances are that it is the original!  I don’t have a problem with any replica that I have owned as any special touches and modifications made pretty much makes them hand made!  I truly prize my jackjo super seadweller at the same level as some of my genuine pieces!   I see nothing special with the genuine pieces when reflecting on their price tag!  In some ways it is all in the mind!  will get off my soap box!😀

[Ronin]

On 3/28/2022 at 9:59 AM, automatico said:

 

Q3...Why would a 'dedicated, highly skilled forger' not just buy the best replica case they could get and detail it to match an OEM case using serial numbers from a damaged original case?

A3...They have most likely been doing it for years.  

 

Exactly.  And for the icing on the cake take said case, give it one or two “polishings” consistent with servicing and I think you are more than in the clear. 
 

There comes a time when aftermarket parts are simply a necessity. Personally, I think there needs to be more encouragement and acceptance ‘with disclosure’ amongst Rolex purists. Live and let live. With openly sold ETA(or other) conversion kits when that 1030/1530 eventually dies. And vice versa.  Water damaged dial, no sweat, here’s a redial. 
 

Just be open and honest about it. It’s just a watch. Don’t shun a guy for using a replacement case, bezel, etc. 

 

I would to see someone post on TRF or VRF an otherwise Genuine Rolex with B&P but powered by ETA because the 1030 died in 1985! 😝. They’d probably be banned. 

[Nanuq]

+1000 hear, hear!

Then let’s visit any of the UK’s sites for Series Land Rovers. We call them “rivet counters”, the people so obsessed with from-the-factory perfection that no detail is beneath mention. And guess how many of them have aftermarket galvanized chassis? They are widely accepted because it’s disclosed as a good thing.

Meanwhile “perfect, unpolished” cases pass on TRF and VRF as genuine and original when the entire vintage community knows they’ve been laser welded and restored, and they all look the other way. Because the vintage heavyweights with more influence and money than God himself, have deemed them “genuine”.

It’s all lies, stoking extremely overinflated egos. Nothing more. And at the end of the day, it’s just a bloody wristwatch.

[automatico]

Ronin and Nanuq make some very good points!

 

No doubt many Bonafide Vintage Watch Dealers will omit important details or outright lie about a watch they are selling...laser repair, movement and/or dial swap etc, etc.

Otoh, the vast majority of RWG members did not lie about any watch they have sold or traded, genuine or replica.

 

So...who are really the bad guys here?

It might not be us.

 

Nanuq:  "We call them “rivet counters”, the people so obsessed with from-the-factory perfection that no detail is beneath mention."

If it passes the 'rivet test' what's next?  Do the Riv Ctrs want proof the vehicle still has the original oil in the crankcase?  Probably, if they are as nutty as watchnuts.

"Hey!  are those rivets in your pocket or are you just glad to be here?"

 

Ronin:  "There comes a time when aftermarket parts are simply a necessity."

 

Agree 100%.  I have noticed ST and a few others have a whole line of high quality movement parts for rlx 15xx, 30xx, and 31xx movements.  It was bound to happen since 'The Emperor' cut parts off and who can tell the difference anyway? 

"Hey!  that stretchy oyster has a fake rivet in it!"

 

It's all about the rivets.

 

I have only one used vintage rlx watch that I know for sure is all original except it has an inscription on the back.  I've had a few in the past but stopped asking. 

After all this, I am beginning to wonder if my JMB '1016' case is 100% original.   

He said it was.

 

 

 

[pompompurin]

In my opinion, some cases like JKF (cartel) cannot fool the finest experts, even after extensive reshaping/ lathe work, because their bloody crown/ stem/ tube height is off! It is a fatal flaw that is not acceptable within gen-spec parameters of the gen world.

e.g., JKF (cartel) 5513, 1680, 5512, 1665, st19 daytona cases all have the wrong crown/ stem/ tube height. Furthermore, the JKF (cartel) 1675 cases have the wrong crown size to begin with causing too much crownguard material to be removed: therefore, this fatal flaw is impossible/ too hard to also correct.

But a modified Vietnam case... that is another level and story. I have heard stories before where extensively modified Vietnam cases were able to pass RSC inspection. 

[DrGran]

16 hours ago, pompompurin said:

But a modified Vietnam case... that is another level and story. I have heard stories before where extensively modified Vietnam cases were able to pass RSC inspection. 

 

Please do show some pictures of said  Vietnam cases to go with this story

[pompompurin]

9 hours ago, DrGran said:

 

Please do show some pictures of said  Vietnam cases to go with this story

I don't have pictures of those particular cases. It is something that I heard before from other watch enthusiasts. 

[DrGran]

6 hours ago, pompompurin said:

I don't have pictures of those particular cases. It is something that I heard before from other watch enthusiasts.