Andrew & Josh's Response To The Little White Lies Thread...

[jkerouac]

As JTB said a few posts ago, Andrew and Joshua have been around a long time -- but not so long that even I remember their earliest offerings through the predecessor boards.

If I recall correctly, Andrew's first offerings were inexpensive ($100 or so) watches that he marketed with over the top prose. My only purchases from Andrew were made during those early days, and while the watches themselves were nothing to write home about, he went out of his way to treat me fairly when a problem arose.

I think the market (that is, members) helped educate him to the money to be made offering higher quality watches at somewhat higher prices. As his selection and quality improved, he also became more adept at communicating with the knowledgeable collector community. That he offers good value at a (mostly) competitive price does not make him any less of a competitive businessman. The success of his Web site and business proves this.

I began dealing with Joshua after my purchases from Andrew, and liked doing business with him for offering quality reps at good prices. At that time he, too, had not yet set up his Web site. Pleasant, responsive, good value on the watches that you desire. I have never had a problem with any of his watches, so I cannot comment on his service follow through-- but others have attested to that. I may not be the most active buyer on the board, and have spread my business around in order to experience different dealers, but Joshua has been and probably will remain my primary dealer. At the same time I have no dobt that he is a competitve businessman as well.

Both Joshua and Andrew owe much of their success to the people on the board. And we are fortunate to have them as members of our community. They are great guys.

But they also need to take to heart that the critiques delivered in these posts, whether in Pug's White Lies thread or in the Dealer Reviews section. Describe your wares accurately, price fairly, deliver on promises, and business will come your way. Take criticism and constructive suggestions in stride and use them to make your businesses even stronger. Try to BS or otherwise take advantage of the knowledgeable folks on the board, and there are other dealers waiting in the wings to accept our business. Pesonally I look forward to doing more business with Joshua and Andrew. But it's their call.

[takashi]

Well. For the benefits of all, agreeing with certain terms/jargon in the replica world would be necessary and definitely it's something which not only the dealers but also the buyers need to agree on. Yes, without doubt it is something pretty much a utopia. When this have happened, it will take quite some time and would not happen overnight. More or less all the questionable terms has been raised. Why don't we focus on correcting those mistakes. May I suggest posting those debatable terms as pinned post? We have to consider also that we are not the only customers. Perhaps correcting those mistakes may affect sales.

A few so called white lies that I have spotted from the previous thread:

1. Swiss ETA2892 means Asian copy of ETA2892 that has different parts to the genuine Swiss ETA2892 (think Seagull, or Asian 7750 vs ETA7750).

2. Syntethic/Genuine Sapphire vs Mineral Glass.

3. Lemania/Venus copy vs Seagull ST19.

BTW, not only the 2 dealers on the spotlight have made mistakes there are other dealers too but not all dealers.

Another point to sum it up is after sales service. For example, taking care of the customers when watch go bust or seized by customs and having very smooth communication. I think these are pretty important points too.

IMHO, there are many factors affecting one's purchase. Let's take for example; price point... This may(not) cover the white lies even more.

The bottom line is it's up to individual whether to buy from the selected dealer.

OT: I have confirmed the existence of MBW shop in Thailand MBK shopping centre. It is not a myth.

[andreww]

Can I just mention one thing that bothers me about nearly all the dealers, the pictures do not always marry up to the description.

This is a perfect example posted by Andrew yesterday.

Cartier Santos 100 chrono with swiss 7753 movemet but none of the pictures actually show one. The movement pics are crappy asia7750 and the watch dial has got a sunken date and not representitive of the swiss at all. Why on earth would I spend that much not knowing what I would really be getting!!

http://www.ttwristwatch.com/index.php?main...roducts_id=1233

Here is the link and see for yourselves.

That said I have always had good service from all the dealers and always suspected the B&R did not have a swiss movement as they did not brag about it with movement pics as they usually do!

I saw that one too. My guess is that its a special order type deal. Case, dial and strap are identical so they just use the same pics. I am pretty sure that is why there is no movement pics of the "Ultimate PO Lite" as they are likely just pics of the ultimate.

Edited February 1, 2007 by andreww

[Secondbaseman12]

Great that josh and andrew finaly reacted on the thread. But I stil have a bad feeling about this all.

MY first purchase ever was a fiddy from andrew a weak after I received my fiddy the glas exploded well this hapened to allot of people so I contacted him if it really was saphire. He sad it was and those things just hapen.

I ordered a davidsan saphire and payed a visit to a local watchsmit, he tested both crystal's and andrew's wasn't saphire and davidsan's was.

This is just plain Lieing. What is the difference between this and those scam sites???? the lie as wel.

Niels

[pabra]

So basically some people are fine with reading an ad, buy the car from a distant seller as it is sold at a good price, and try to start it while the seller runs away screaming "THE AD SAID THAT THERE WAS AN ENGINE, LOOK CLOSELY THERE'S A TANK IN THE TRUNK"?

Possible answers to this? Yeah, you shoud've tried it out! Indeed, however in this case the misrepresented car is better off so the argument is actually contraproductive. Considering that if you find Admin the Tank in the trunk, but no other engine, you'll kinda think twice before money is invested. In a watch case, the least you have to pay is the shipping back and forth.

Another one, but it was so cheeeaaap. Indeed it was, and usually you do get what you pay for. Then again, both scenarios are at the same level. In the car-example, the engine was not visible. In the watch-example, the engine was ... well... actually something else than on the picture.

[andreww]

Go to Andrew's website and look at every single watch on there. Check the specs on the crystals and movements, then acquire each one to ensure that the description is correct. As Andrew and Josh dropship, I would bet that they really haven't even handled or seen most of the watches on their sites. They have to go by the descriptions provided by their manufacturer and likely cannot be held accountable for most inaccuracies.

If you want to check their sites, feel free!

[Craytonic]

Would be interesting to see that logic applied to any other type of merchandise. Try for example the next time you go food shoping. Imagince the scene:

You come the shop assistant with a box of milk in youir hand and ask him "Hello, I found this box on which it says Milk. I just wanted to make sure, does it contain Milk, or is there a risk that it contains orange juice?" The guy responds "It contains Milk of course" Looking happily suprised you continue "It says 1 liter on the box. Is there any risk that it contains 30 milliliter instead?" And so the conversatoin would continue for every item.

Bingo!

[eddhead]

. They have to go by the descriptions provided by their manufacturer and likely cannot be held accountable for most inaccuracies.

The fact that they dropship does not mean they are not responsible for accuratly representing their products and it does not mean they are not accountable for the quality of the merchandise. In the business world, this is known as re-selling... it is just not accurate to suggest that a reseller is not accountable for the merchandise he/she markets when he dropships. Dealers need to make sure they carefully choose their suppliers,knowing full well that their business reputations are at stake when they do so.

Bottom line is, the dealers choose the suppliers they do business with.. we do not, and we should not. My job is to pay for the product, the dealer's job is to deliver the product I paid for. Period. It is up to them, and not me, to figure out how to do that. Dropshipping may present a problem, but quite frankly it is not MY problem it is the DEALERS' problem.

[olivia]

They have to go by the descriptions provided by their manufacturer and likely cannot be held accountable for most inaccuracies.

Hmmm.. not sure I agree with that. What is their responsibility when advertising a product even when specs are provided by suppliers?

They are attaching their names to the product when they decide to sell them.

[Pugwash]

They have to go by the descriptions provided by their manufacturer and likely cannot be held accountable for most inaccuracies.

Sure they can. Nowhere on their site do they say what you see is not what you get. Nowhere do they say they're merely agents. You buy watches off them and it's their job to give you what you paid them for.

[mumum]

Hmmm.. not sure I agree with that. What is their responsibility when advertising a product even when specs are provided by suppliers?

They are attaching their names to the product when they decide to sell them.

Agreed, like ANY business, when attaching your name to a product and you are the contact/face/seller (ect...) the buck stops there. It has to, like any other business. We do not know the chinese manufacturers and are not told the names of them (so that we do not baypass the 'sellers' and get direct). this is done so that consumers can only deal with these sellers. therefore, they have to also take the burden of responsibility of what they claim.

[Craytonic]

The problem with A&J's response is that it was a "Bill Clinton under investigation response." I do not intend to be political. I like Bill Clinton. I like Josh (I have never bought a watch from Andrew). But, I lot a lot of respect for Clinton the day he started playing semantic games about the definition of "is." I feel the same way here when copyrighted terms & nouns are being adjectives. Much respect was lost.

Everyone knows it was a bad description. The best response would be to put the shovel down and say "guys, sorry, I goofed and it won't happen again - thanks for keeping me straight." We will think more, not less, of you for doing so!

[deltatahoe]

I hope I'm not being over-dramatic, but let's take the other point of view. If you're happy for the dealers to use misleadign terms because you understand what they really mean then speak. Tell us worry-mongers how much we're over-reacting and convince us we're just worrying over nothing. We will shut up if the forum tells us that they don't have a problem with the dealers using potentially misleading terms.

i think this line of reasoning is a little over the top, don't you? nobody wants to be mislead. but at the same time, not everyone has the time to spend on this boards arguing over these items. most of the time in life, the most vocal (or popular for that matter) people don't necessarily represent the feelings of the majority. i appreciate your efforts to get people to speak up, but based on human nature, i don't think it will happen, even if people did feel differently than you.

i for one, think this whole thing is being blown out of proportion. sure, maybe the noobs don't fully understand that you need to ask questions and seek clarifications on various items and descriptions. from my perspective, this level of scrutiny is just a normal part of any significant purchase.

Would be interesting to see that logic applied to any other type of merchandise. Try for example the next time you go food shoping. Imagince the scene:

You come the shop assistant with a box of milk in youir hand and ask him "Hello, I found this box on which it says Milk. I just wanted to make sure, does it contain Milk, or is there a risk that it contains orange juice?" The guy responds "It contains Milk of course" Looking happily suprised you continue "It says 1 liter on the box. Is there any risk that it contains 30 milliliter instead?" And so the conversatoin would continue for every item.

you're talking apples and oranges. you think you should go about buying a $2 carton of milk and a $300 watch (replica or otherwise) in the same manner? absolutely not -- for the $300 item (at least for me), you ask questions to make sure you understand what you're getting and you make a decision based upon whether or not you believe you're getting what you're paying for.

just my thoughts...

deltatahoe

[Thor]

Just curious and really not trying to start anything but....I personally have dealt almost exclusively with one of the mentioned dealers here and personally haven't had any issues with the products I've received over 30 watches. I feel I got what i paid for and any issues along the way were resolved in a professional manner. Now I don't claim to be an expert on watches, I know a little to me it's always been about how accurate the rep is. Maybe I see through the advertising wording...Maybe I don't put much value on words such as 1:1, Sapphire, ETA...Maybe I don't care. After all these are fake watches right? Most people that are buying are taking $200-$300 that they could have purchased a citzen or seiko and decided they would rather have a knock off of something they most likey cannot afford or don't want to pay for.

Who is so honest in selling fake illegal products, giving you're money's worth and providing good service after the fact?

This board is great for information and for each buyer to learn and absorb as much as they can or want to.

For me it's an huge difference how much i pay for a watch. The factor of the price per watch is in my eyes most dependend on the movement inside. You can buy a fake Ferrari for a certain amount - now you put an engine of an real ferrari in or the on of a toyota. Both cars are looking the same but their performance is totally different. As mentioned already by certain members in the main thread most watchmakers refuse to work on Asian movements.

The replica forum board is a minorty for both of these dealers sales. The reason that we are unfolding these 'white lies' is due to our interest in watches. To the everday person who buys one replica watch to impress, it would make no difference. This is who the marketing is aimed at, they are stretching the application of descriptions.

I personally think that when new watches are advertised on this board, in their dealer section, they should tell us exactly what we are getting.

I wouldn't sign that. In my opinion most sales are made between the dealers and the members of on of the rep-boards! How many of us had only found one of the dealers websites? - I guess not even 0,1%.

If you look for an rep you'll find primary the scam sites afterwards RWG-1, which will lead to RWG-2, TRC or RWI and also to the dealers...

Andrew just changed his website - seems not too smart for someone who's selling most of the stuff to surfers who just find the site by mistake... i'm sure only a small percentage is sold via their websites - i see their websites as costumer service for the members here...

As we're still in the process of discussing the situation and the best solution for the future we rate different options we have - but as JTB posted already we'll take care of this problem and try to work something out that similar things wouldn't happen again.

Thor

[chubbchubb]

....so this seems to become the legitimate heir to the "white lies" thread....

I have bought a couple of watches and parts (straps, movements) from Andrew and one night, after I had ordered a watch, we had a very interesting and nice email exchange about our views on business ethics and business behavior... we both agreed that long-term thinking was the key to building a successful business and that the quick buck, made on the back of your customer, does not really lead to that same goal... I did then and still trust Andrew that this was truly his opinion, because he had just made me an offer to solve an issue we had with a watch, which was generous and very much in line with the opinion he had voiced in that conversation. Needless to say, I have bought from him since and will do so in the future...

I have bought reps from street dealers in New York, Naples or Istanbul, I have bought from middlemen on Ioffer, from guys on the bay and the owner of a pizza parlor 'round the corner... none of them have given me even remotely that kind of treatment and in retrospect- fair pricing. In so far I am very happy that roughly a year ago, I finally discovered the rep-board world, and through it, guys like Neil, Josh, Andrew, Jay, Angus and all the others.

On the other hand, I believe that Dealers should use an honest description of what they are offering. If it is an Asian copy of an ETA movement, that doesn't mean that it is a pos. My TTK noobmariner runs very accurately and that is fitted with the mother of all cheapo movements. But I knew what I was buying (Neil is very accurate in his ads) and I did not mind. That movement dwells in darkness - not like my 6497 in the PAM183. Even Indenial said on page one that his B&R runs flawlessly... If someone doesn't mind getting Mineral Glass instead of Sapphire or just wants an accurate case and does not care about the movement as long as it keeps good time - that's absolutely ok... but you can only make that decision if you have the FACTS! If I had a religious problem with buying a replica of anything (watch, case, wristband, movement) I wouldn't be here. So what's wrong with calling an ETA rep by its name?

Just don't sell me mineral glass as sapphire, Asian as Swiss, rep as gen or guy as girl ....

[chubbchubb]

The best response would be to put the shovel down and say "guys, sorry, I goofed and it won't happen again - thanks for keeping me straight." We will think more, not less, of you for doing so!

Missed this as I was writing my rather long post (puh!) ... this, especially the last sentence is the best short-says-it-all response to this loooooooooooooong topic...

[Goochenbrau]

Unfortunately, the entire issue is semantics.

No, its not. If it was simply semantics, the ETA copy would be exactly like a gen ETA, just labeled differently. If they are two completely different products, yet labeled the same, its intended to mislead the buyer.

[crystalcranium]

Andrew might have just posted the best response to all of this. A gorgeous Cartier Santos with a genuine, decorated ETA 7753,...lots of pictures of the inside...<$700 selling price.....Quite a watch.

"Wormy" explainations might not always fly but offer us candy........?????????!!!!!!!!!

[V]

Indeed, although why do you sound so surprised. As I say - some dealers do not treat us like fair game for a bit of 'non-disclosure' to see what they can get away with. It all comes down to how they want to do business, and how they want to be perceived by the customer.

Well, I have to say that one person's good dealer may be another person's bad dealer... depending of what you are asking of your dealer

but I forgot.. the last month in RWG we are pretend to be the holy inquisition judging Joshua and Andrew..

I say hung them to give an example to others

[andreww]

The fact that they dropship does not mean they are not responsible for accuratly representing their products and it does not mean they are not accountable for the quality of the merchandise. In the business world, this is known as re-selling... it is just not accurate to suggest that a reseller is not accountable for the merchandise he/she markets when he dropships. Dealers need to make sure they carefully choose their suppliers,knowing full well that their business reputations are at stake when they do so.

Bottom line is, the dealers choose the suppliers they do business with.. we do not, and we should not. My job is to pay for the product, the dealer's job is to deliver the product I paid for. Period. It is up to them, and not me, to figure out how to do that. Dropshipping may present a problem, but quite frankly it is not MY problem it is the DEALERS' problem.

Don't get me wrong Pug, I'm not condoning this practice, I'm just throwing out an explanation as to why things are the way they are. This whole rep industry is rife with scammers and liars. I don't think that Andrew and Josh are either of those things. I just don't see how the crystal or lume issues can be guaranteed without testing each watch?

[Pugwash]

i think this line of reasoning is a little over the top, don't you?

Yet it's the Admin's top discussion?

I don't know if I'm over-exaggerating or not, and only history can answer that one. I don't have all the answers of course, but I believe in the question.

[supermanx]

Many people were upset with paul for selling "copy 2892" movements in watches as eta, but at least in his case the watches were under $200's... I didn't buy a b&r but i remember all the prototype discussions where j&a stated they were getting it made to get specs even including the 2892 instead of the cheaper 2824 or 2836, but figured with the "ETA" 2892 it would run $350-400. When I saw it going for $300 the first thing that popped in my head was NOT that it was using a copy movement, figured it was special prices they got for commisioning the run. I dont see dealers running around listing Asian 7750 as ETA 7750. A7750 or even just 7750 but not ETA. What made them pick SuperLume instead of great lume, best rep lume... because it is immmediatly appeals to the masses. Most people here want superluminova and will pay a little bit of a premium for it.

I dont think they 2.1% intrest rate thought cuts it, even if two years down the road your rate is 9.xxx percent you would still get the 2.1. Would you be upset if someone sold you a car that they advertised you as supercharged only to find out they ment it was a super car with a k&n filtercharger and then changed their descriptions for the rest of thier cars to be superbly charged?

[watcher]

Andrew might have just posted the best response to all of this. A gorgeous Cartier Santos with a genuine, decorated ETA 7753,...lots of pictures of the inside...<$700 selling price.....Quite a watch.

"Wormy" explainations might not always fly but offer us candy........?????????!!!!!!!!!

Quite a watch but the decoration is not on a 7753! movement is it!!! Replica world with poorly replicated comments is looking like the norm!

[V]

Many people were upset with paul for selling "copy 2892" movements in watches as eta, but at least in his case the watches were under $200's...

No my friend.. here we are judging Josh and Andrew.. don't mention other dealers..

Because if we start mentioning other dealers we will find many many disturbing things that a group of us may not like ... for ALL of them.

[Craytonic]

No, its not. If it was simply semantics, the ETA copy would be exactly like a gen ETA, just labeled differently. If they are two completely different products, yet labeled the same, its intended to mislead the buyer.

This is a small point but I am right...

Semantics is "The relationships of characters or groups of characters to their meanings." I think "ETA," "Superlume," and "sapphire" all have very specific meanings attached. They are being used (incorrectly) as adverbs here. It is a semantics issue - should dealers be using ETA in this new way? I think not.