Does Anyone In This 'forum' Believe In God?

[fotoman]

I must admit I cringed when V started this thread discussions on Religion rarely run smooth, however I must admit you guys have by and large handled yourselves very well.

What I find strange is this constant need for people to question each others beliefs, some of my closest friends (including my wife) are regular church goers so I know it is possible to live in harmony, in my opinion V's treament of those little old ladies was rude not just to their religion but to them as senior citizens.

Ken

pretty much the thread has been apretty good debate -

I live in harmony with many religious folk and "believers" my family all believe in some sort of diety. buti have to disagre with you my good friend it is I that take supreme insult at having people waste my time trying to "save my soul" or peddle some other sort of crap (like, help me win my magazine selling contest) by knocking on my door. I generally tell them that i'm sorry i worship regularly at the church of Satan.

I don't really have a problem with anyone being religous. I do have problems when peoples religous starts interfearing in my life. I don't go knocking on your door saying, your world view is wrong, you should see things my way. I don't go around legislating theh practice of religion out of existance to protect the population (as they try to legislate their religion to protect me)

If your going to hang yourself outthere and insult me at my home then you better expect to get similiar treatment.

[fotoman]

I always was dumbfounded how/why people believe in modern times. People continue to pray while there has been no creditable study ever done that shows that there is any effect from doing so. As I said before... If the monotheisic personable god were to exist s/he could only be one of three possibilities. 1) powerless 2) abscent or 3) evil. 11 million people exterminated by Hitler's Germany God was your pic 1, 2, or 3?

Interestin article in the New York Times Magazine... Why do we Believe.

http://www.nytimes.com/pages/magazine/inde...artner=rssyahoo

Actually there is a unique effect that praying has on the brain of the person praying. It is similiar to a "high" this is what is thought to be the medical explination of the "religious experience" some people feel.

its also what is thought to be the "healing" that some people experience with a faith healer. - but there is no doubt that there are areas of the brain that have special activity that is related to prayor

Now, praying for someone else to get better, doesn't do anything.

[fotoman]

I don't think there is much evidence for that in V's initial post.. that they had no respect for his beliefs. They asked him essentially the same question that V asked everyone in this forum, i.e., Does anyone in this 'house' believe in God? Do you conclude that V is trying to change our beliefs?

HUGE difference, - V is our friend, and is posting in an open forum that is set up for such a purchase

These people went uninvited to his door. Ostensibly insulting his world view

[olivia]

HUGE difference, - V is our friend, and is posting in an open forum that is set up for such a purchase

These people went uninvited to his door. Ostensibly insulting his world view

Show me in V's post where they insulted his world view. We are all making certain assumptions as to their intent, which I do not believe is supported by what we were told.

Suppose this is a true story. I know of two elderly ladies who believe in God. They have a dear friend who is gravely ill. These two ladies believe in prayer. They decide to try to find others who believe in God to pray for their friend and go through a community to find such believers. They knock on V's door and ask if anyone in this house believes in God. Do you think thay is some sort of insult?

Edited March 6, 2007 by olivia

[fotoman]

Show me in V's post where they insulted his world view. We are all making certain assumptions as to their intent, which I do not believe is supported by what we were told.

Suppose this is a true story. I know of two elderly ladies who believe in God. They have a dear friend who is gravely ill. These two ladies believe in prayer. They decide to try to find others who believe in God to pray for their friend and go through a community to find such believers. They knock on V's door and ask if anyone in this house believes in God. Do you think thay is some sort of insult?

yes, i do.

I guarontee that those people went to his door intent to convince them of their world view? otherwise why bother him.

If anyone comes to your door just asking for prayor, its a scam so they can get you onto their stuff. All kinds of scams out there, jews for jesus and the like.

Religous zelouts out to peddle their religion are out to do only 1 thing.

They believe that their world view is the only right one and therefore i am wrong, Otherwise why would they spend their time, precious as it is, on me.

Therefore, Unless V agreed with their world view - which is a safe assumption he did NOT by the reaction he gave - they were there to insult him and his world view.

i would find it insulting if i were religous and some athiests kept bothering me. I only engage in debate when invited or when it is already occuring in public, why? because i'm challenging your world view, your challenging mine - only 1 is right, the other is at a minimum wrong at a max dellusional.

There is a reason you don't discuss politics and religion at dinner - Someone will be insulted.

you can only deal with these situations with a mutual non-insulted agreements - which, one should voluntarily agree to when entering the debate.

And as i have said at the begining, anyone insulted by my remarks can take comfort in the fact that i will burn for all eternity

[Craytonic]

I don't think they were trying to insult his world view.

Nothing against whoever started this thread, but I think most athiests have major issues with hubris, they are always 100% sure about their beliefs and are "insulted" that someone else would believe different. I think it is silly not to admit the possibility there is a God, and assuming thus they are somewhat justified in their beliefs, they really thought they had his best interests at heart. They were not selling crack or asking for a magazine subscription.

It is silly to act like you have all the answers... no one does. No scientist can say "this is where the world came from." There are theories (big bang, etc) but they change constantly and any scientist will tell you that they are far from proven fact and can offer little more certainty that "this is what I believe happend but I can't prove it."

I am not catholic but the Jesuits I have encountered here and there are the best example of religous scholars I know - they are always deep in thought about their beliefs. If you ever have the chance I encourage conversing with one of them, they go far beyond "blind faith" in their beliefs and usually have a very well thought out dogma. Think about it, they have nothing better to do all day than study and learn so they are very interesting to talk to. They typically devote at least an hour or two to thinking about it every day.

We have people come by about once a month trying to convert us to his or that but I always politely tell them that I am very busy or just don't open the door. No reason not to be civil.

[Craytonic]

They believe that their world view is the only right one and therefore i am wrong

See my post above, Athiests are exactly the same way; I have never met one that didn't have some wise-ass comment they heard on late night TV about "how could God let X happened if he existed" or this or that (which I typically find ill-thought out and insulting).

Athiesm is as much of a belief system that is preached and taught as any religion by its converts.

[Craytonic]

Nothing against present company.

[KB]

Pho my friend your argument is based on the assumption that they knocked on V's door with the intent of changing his views, I believe they were in fact just reaching out as Olivia has stated, simply trying to find others in the community that share their beliefs.

It's a fact that the various church's do in fact find new congregation members like this they also find people in need of their welfare services, the real door knockers are the Mormons.

The is a million jokes on how to get rid of Mormons but the method I use is quicker and more effective than all of them, I just say "I'm sorry but we are Church of England"...............all done, all over and the funny thing is I didn't have to be rude.

Ken

[fotoman]

Pho my friend your argument is based on the assumption that they knocked on V's door with the intent of changing his views, I believe they were in fact just reaching out as Olivia has stated, simply trying to find others in the community that share their beliefs.

It's a fact that the various church's do in fact find new congregation members like this they also find people in need of their welfare services, the real door knockers are the Mormons.

The is a million jokes on how to get rid of Mormons but the method I use is quicker and more effective than all of them, I just say "I'm sorry but we are Church of England"...............all done, all over and the funny thing is I didn't have to be rude.

Ken

anyone that says they were just out to meet the neighbors is trying to SELL you something.

Craytonic - I think its silly that you would even think there is a god or would even entertain the possiblity in the face of any evidence being that none would exist.

now that we both think each other is silly, let me show the fallacy in your last statements

First, - I'm not insulted that YOU belive in god - Frankly, i could give a crap (no offense intended, mearly ment as a generic you) What i'm offended at is that You (or more to the point THEM) feel the need to bother me with your beliefs - that you feel the need to wage political war (or they do) to effect me, my family and my fellow country persons

I don't pretend to have ANY answers - what i pretened to do, i smake observations and conclusions based upon observations. I'd be happy to concede there is a god if someone could show me some evidence to the point.

The hubris is on teh part of the "faithful" who feel they need to "save" me or society or gays or abortions or any of that crap that the "religous" go after.

I would point out that i am not confusing "religion" and "faith" as the "faith" persons don't go knocking on doors. Only Those with the interest in pursuing their own cult knock on doors.

Those who believe in some higher power and use it to guide their everyda actions - go for it, what do i care

Athiests - don't have an "anti religion" agenda - Atheists aren't "out" to get anyone -athiests are not obessed with the actions of others. the Religious people - start this fight - although they would have most think that is the athiest who, by not participating in a baseless "belief" we are somehow the instigator

this is exactly equivilent to the Republican who says that the Democrat has Voted For Higher Taxes, by Failing to vote for a tax cut. - You can't re-write the status quo in order to change the agressor.

i'm not offended by you, believer - i'm offended by your attempting to screw with my life !! :)which, in my opinion is something to take offense at. - As you may believe these people are doing a good deed.

Let me be clear - i'm also offended by tele-marketers - I'm offended by "cold calls" I'm offended that the chick at walgreens asks me at checkout if i would like to help in their "sales campaign" to buy candy bars. - No, i'm patrionizing your store, don't make me feel GUILTY for not buying more products - i find it very offensive that they feel it nessecary to pester me with that in the same t one they would ask for a donation for a charity

I'm also offended by most charity's because they are scams - especially the United Way - What a scam, their overhead is like 40 Percent.

Having spent time at the "high end" of society, i've seen to much for someone my age - the way the world really works, the scams that religion, charity, politics, minority set asides "community activists" - lots of things i used to support. - Fact is, the rich run the world, the rest of us are just pawns in their rat maze.

anyone tells you different they are trying to sell you something

:Best thing i can figure is to find a small corner of the world and figure out a way to enjoy life while you can.

[fotoman]

i'm going to bow out of this now, cause i'm not sure how much farther we can debate without me really saying something that someone will not forget and find offensive - and frankly, thats not where i want to go.

[Craytonic]

anyone that says they were just out to meet the neighbors is trying to SELL you something.

Did they ever ask you to buy anything? Isn't there a polite refusal? I don't see the point in not just being civil. The world really is a better place if you are polite. I just really don't see the point in not giving a "No thank you." Sure you find they are bothering you... but come on.

Craytonic - I think its silly that you would even think there is a god or would even entertain the possiblity in the face of any evidence being that none would exist.

Such a staunch belief! I think you will find most people that believe in God, myself included, are always doubting our faith for this reason or that, and will entertain any idea at least for a second until they fully evaluate it. I am always willing to consider any athiest's theory. However, athiests are almost always instantly dismissive of the others that believe. There is no "picture" evidence (there are plenty of other ways to go about demonstrating the need of a prime mover, etc) you can point to that says God does or does not exist. period. end of story. This means there are two options - a) God does not exist, or he does and there is no way to prove it to you.

Just as easy as you can say "prove to me there is a God." I can say "Prove to me God did not create everything." Neither of us can prove jack. (There are many rational proofs I find convincing that are logic based that I find convincing but I will be the first to admit I don't have the skill or familiarity to recite and defend them so I will leave their research as an exercise to the reader)

Have you ever read a paper where a researcher tries to detect something? If they don't find it, they will say we did not DETECT anything, not that it does not exist (sample to small, measurements not acute enough, etc). That is the _responsible_ answer a truly scientific mind would give (look at any research paper).

I am constantly amazed when athiests say I don't believe in God because he let "x" happen. That simply invites the counter points of both a) you don't know the full consequences of what "x" caused in the long run, and look at all the good things that have come about that should not.

Athiests - don't have an "anti religion" agenda - Atheists aren't "out" to get anyone -athiests are not obessed with the actions of others. the Religious people - start this fight - although they would have most think that is the athiest who, by not participating in a baseless "belief" we are somehow the instigator

This isn't really fact based, so I will just point out that it always seems the opposite to me. Perhaps the problem is all people think someone is persecuting them, who knows?

Having spent time at the "high end" of society, i've seen to much for someone my age - the way the world really works, the scams that religion, charity, politics, minority set asides "community activists" - lots of things i used to support. - Fact is, the rich run the world, the rest of us are just pawns in their rat maze.

anyone tells you different they are trying to sell you something

Congrats on the time in the high end of society, I hope you enjoyed your stay!

So

a) you want to be left alone

the world is going to [censored]

c) life is meaningless unless you have money

Nothing personal, but it sounds like a bitter, empty existence?

I can add that religious people tend, on average to be happier. Of the professions, ministers (and doctors) live the longest. I think this has something to do with religion giving meaning to their life. Obviously, this begs the question of do they turn to religion for that meaning, but that is an entirely different issue.

Let me add I am a very strong believer, but I don't really participate in organized religion and attend services at a maximum twice a year with family as time spent together over easter and Christmas. Any "observation" of my own is thought and/or reading. I enjoy the works of many athiests, William Barrett being my favorite (followed by Sarte). That said, I believe organized religion is "good" for society as a whole.

[Guest TTK]

Dunno want to get into the God thing........all I know is this.......a fruit fly lives for 24 hours......then it dies......heaven must be f***g overflowing with flies......dun sound like a good place to be......and as for all the birds over all the millennia....knee deep in guano......gimme a break.....

[narikaa]

Blind Faith...a wonderful thing

Epitomized most graphically in its idiocy by the Jehovah's Witnesses...........

Who rigidly believe that Heaven is limited only to exactly 144,000 Jehovah's Witnesses - There is no life after death (except for the 144,000)..........this for a organization of an estimated 6.5million souls............That's still recruiting!!!!!

.

[jonthebhoy]

.........and with 144,000 witnesses........he's bound to get sent down!

[narikaa]

.........and with 144,000 witnesses........he's bound to get sent down!

toooooo right

bang to f'''in rights they are

but the toe rags wont cough and put their 'ands up to it

diabolic f'''in liberty 'f ask me

[fotoman]

Did they ever ask you to buy anything? Isn't there a polite refusal? I don't see the point in not just being civil. The world really is a better place if you are polite. I just really don't see the point in not giving a "No thank you." Sure you find they are bothering you... but come on.

Such a staunch belief! I think you will find most people that believe in God, myself included, are always doubting our faith for this reason or that, and will entertain any idea at least for a second until they fully evaluate it. I am always willing to consider any athiest's theory. However, athiests are almost always instantly dismissive of the others that believe. There is no "picture" evidence (there are plenty of other ways to go about demonstrating the need of a prime mover, etc) you can point to that says God does or does not exist. period. end of story. This means there are two options - a) God does not exist, or he does and there is no way to prove it to you.

Just as easy as you can say "prove to me there is a God." I can say "Prove to me God did not create everything." Neither of us can prove jack. (There are many rational proofs I find convincing that are logic based that I find convincing but I will be the first to admit I don't have the skill or familiarity to recite and defend them so I will leave their research as an exercise to the reader)

Have you ever read a paper where a researcher tries to detect something? If they don't find it, they will say we did not DETECT anything, not that it does not exist (sample to small, measurements not acute enough, etc). That is the _responsible_ answer a truly scientific mind would give (look at any research paper).

I am constantly amazed when athiests say I don't believe in God because he let "x" happen. That simply invites the counter points of both a) you don't know the full consequences of what "x" caused in the long run, and look at all the good things that have come about that should not.

This isn't really fact based, so I will just point out that it always seems the opposite to me. Perhaps the problem is all people think someone is persecuting them, who knows?

Congrats on the time in the high end of society, I hope you enjoyed your stay!

So

a) you want to be left alone

the world is going to [censored]

c) life is meaningless unless you have money

Nothing personal, but it sounds like a bitter, empty existence?

I can add that religious people tend, on average to be happier. Of the professions, ministers (and doctors) live the longest. I think this has something to do with religion giving meaning to their life. Obviously, this begs the question of do they turn to religion for that meaning, but that is an entirely different issue.

Let me add I am a very strong believer, but I don't really participate in organized religion and attend services at a maximum twice a year with family as time spent together over easter and Christmas. Any "observation" of my own is thought and/or reading. I enjoy the works of many athiests, William Barrett being my favorite (followed by Sarte). That said, I believe organized religion is "good" for society as a whole.

this forum isn't adiquite for our debate, the issues are too numerous and too complicated, i have answers to all your points.

I believe i can show you how live exists WITHOUT divine intervention - in fact i can prove the concept of "intelligent design" false in 2 sentances

If, life - and its complexity , MUST have been created because it couldn't have happened on its own - whatever "Created" it must be at least as complex as the thing it creates - Therefore, the logic is meaningless -

I recomend The god Delusion by Richard Dawkins - in fact i would love someone who likes the subject to read the book and critisize it - i have seen some people try to - but they end up critisizing the author and not the content -

he does away with every good argument i have heard.

Religion - on a Whole - is Very Very BAD for the world - More blood has been shed in teh name of religion then any other cause in history, bar none. Sure, religion, played a vital role in controlling the masses to organize society in the early stages thereof- it provides comfort to those who seek answers. And frankly i think the human brain is not smart enough to comprehend the world we exist in - and that on the whole, religion closes the gap between comprehension and reality.

I didn't say that the world sucks unless your rich - i said that the rich run the world and that most of the "institutions" out there-that many hold dear are just money making machines for the manipulative power hungry

The world, is in fact, a bad place. - Its sad really. My existance is not however empty - i fill it with daily enjoyment of my immediate surroundings, primarily my family. I simply don't need to feel that i'm part of some big cosmic plan just to be happy.

Most people believe in god - in the US anyway

But most people used to believe the world was flat, the sun revolved around the earth, that Air was made up of a lack of molecules, the flying was impossible, that mermaids existed, that their particular King was hand picked by god. - So whats your point - we have been delusional about something since the begining of time - AND - it has alwasy been in furtherance of our own divine image of ourselves

its quite egotistical to think that we are all part of some grander universe make up- its quite humble to think were no better off than the fruit fly - just another bunch of atoms eeking out an existance.

Frankly, i could go on all day - AND- frankly, if we were in person, i would win the debate - mostly because i am right- and i have history, science, and logic on my side vs. Faith - the only concept in the world where ignorance is praised lack of curiousity is praised.

I'm sure it would be one hell of a debate, you sound quite good at debating - however - i happen to be un-beatable if i am right on the facts - which i am here

there are a shitload of things i can't do right, or well, but - this, i got down

till one day when we meet in person = or in the afterlife - we can finish this there.

[Craytonic]

this forum isn't adiquite for our debate, the issues are too numerous and too complicated, i have answers to all your points.

I believe i can show you how live exists WITHOUT divine intervention - in fact i can prove the concept of "intelligent design" false in 2 sentances

If, life - and its complexity , MUST have been created because it couldn't have happened on its own - whatever "Created" it must be at least as complex as the thing it creates - Therefore, the logic is meaningless -

I recomend The god Delusion by Richard Dawkins - in fact i would love someone who likes the subject to read the book and critisize it - i have seen some people try to - but they end up critisizing the author and not the content -

he does away with every good argument i have heard.

Religion - on a Whole - is Very Very BAD for the world - More blood has been shed in teh name of religion then any other cause in history, bar none. Sure, religion, played a vital role in controlling the masses to organize society in the early stages thereof- it provides comfort to those who seek answers. And frankly i think the human brain is not smart enough to comprehend the world we exist in - and that on the whole, religion closes the gap between comprehension and reality.

I didn't say that the world sucks unless your rich - i said that the rich run the world and that most of the "institutions" out there-that many hold dear are just money making machines for the manipulative power hungry

The world, is in fact, a bad place. - Its sad really. My existance is not however empty - i fill it with daily enjoyment of my immediate surroundings, primarily my family. I simply don't need to feel that i'm part of some big cosmic plan just to be happy.

Most people believe in god - in the US anyway

But most people used to believe the world was flat, the sun revolved around the earth, that Air was made up of a lack of molecules, the flying was impossible, that mermaids existed, that their particular King was hand picked by god. - So whats your point - we have been delusional about something since the begining of time - AND - it has alwasy been in furtherance of our own divine image of ourselves

its quite egotistical to think that we are all part of some grander universe make up- its quite humble to think were no better off than the fruit fly - just another bunch of atoms eeking out an existance.

Frankly, i could go on all day - AND- frankly, if we were in person, i would win the debate - mostly because i am right- and i have history, science, and logic on my side vs. Faith - the only concept in the world where ignorance is praised lack of curiousity is praised.

I'm sure it would be one hell of a debate, you sound quite good at debating - however - i happen to be un-beatable if i am right on the facts - which i am here

there are a shitload of things i can't do right, or well, but - this, i got down

till one day when we meet in person = or in the afterlife - we can finish this there.

You are all over the map, god faith, history, religion. You can't cherry pick one event from each you like and call it an argument - it is fun to spout off but it isn't proof of anything. There are no "facts" here, this is why the existence of God is the longest running debate in the history of mankind - it is something you can't "prove" on way or the other in the terms you describe. When it comes down to it, both sides as far as science goes are empty handed and you can't really debate with someone who doesn't admit it (and that 2 sentence "proof" is meaningless). Sorry, but there is no logic here and I can't argue with that.

[Pugwash]

There are no "facts" here, this is why the existence of God is the longest running debate in the history of mankind - it is something you can't "prove" on way or the other in the terms you describe.

As an atheist, I realise that this debate will never be won. Phoband may be arguing from the same side of the line as me, but I felt his opinions on how he could win the debate a little ... um, overreaching. What next, solve the Arab/Isreali conflict to the joy of both sides?

[fotoman]

As an atheist, I realise that this debate will never be won. Phoband may be arguing from the same side of the line as me, but I felt his opinions on how he could win the debate a little ... um, overreaching. What next, solve the Arab/Isreali conflict to the joy of both sides?

Cmon you guys can't take a joke

Arab Isreali can't be solved - and i've done alot of research into this - because, they want opposing ideas - its like trying to solve the Hitler/ Jewish debate one wants the other wiped off the face of the earth - no negotiating room.

[Pugwash]

Arab Isreali can't be solved

That's the point.

[fotoman]

You are all over the map, god faith, history, religion. You can't cherry pick one event from each you like and call it an argument - it is fun to spout off but it isn't proof of anything. There are no "facts" here, this is why the existence of God is the longest running debate in the history of mankind - it is something you can't "prove" on way or the other in the terms you describe. When it comes down to it, both sides as far as science goes are empty handed and you can't really debate with someone who doesn't admit it (and that 2 sentence "proof" is meaningless). Sorry, but there is no logic here and I can't argue with that.

As i said, too many issues to complicated - i'm not all over the map, i'm discussing 10 different issues simultaneously. because those are the ones that are brought up. many overlap - thats just the wya it is, which is why you can't discuss this on a message board.

The Facts that are on my side relate to evolution - science ect ect - religious folks "claim" that "science doesn't explain it all" only because they want to create doubt so they can take comfort and reinforce their world view.

Its All Explained. And anything that might not be, can not be explained by the existence of a god.

I can't prove god doesn't exist, but i can prove there is no reason for god to exist.

Seriously, you don't understand the intelligent design proof? iits pretty simple - You can't say with a straight face that - a Creator created what we see, because its too complicated for it just to happen. Because who created the creator - DUh, a more complex creator? the point is, life happens, the universe just exists. You can't rely on the "complication" of things as evidence of a creator, because who created the more complicated creator - the logic is non- existent.

I was kidding (somewhat) on saying i'd win. Again you don't get tone in a forum.

But seriously though i have facts, science and history on my side. When you take history, facts and science into the picture - what you see is, all of the reasons religion and "God" were invented - all of the reasons that religion and god persisted through the ages into the modern times - and even some of the reasons it persists today.

Now that you observe all this and understand how and why we got here - and realize that the major organized religions of the world are generally made up of a bunch of BS (based upon borrowed myths - Noah, borrowed from a Babylonians flood myth yadda yadda) we know who wrote many of these things, we know at what time many were written, we know about the arbitrary way that the current "bibles" were put together, leaving some in, leaving some out - we know that some items in the book are Sacred and some are ignored.

organized religion - is really laughable as it relates to its own internal integrity of what they purport to stand for.

Take "organized religion" out of the matrix - and where is the showing, thought of - or basis for a God. you may not buy into organized religion, but tell me where you get the basis for your supreme being if not borrowed from some of this.

Tell me where you understand this being is and does. Its based on a "feeling" that is individual to just you - or you are borrowing in part or in a whole from an organized religion.

thats what i'm talking about regarding facts - related to history, related to science, related to evolution. I can explain how it happened. You can only explain how you "feel"

[fotoman]

That's the point.

Differnt than the topic here, - Arab Isreali can't be solved because both want A and there is only 1 A that can't be split.

God either exists or it doesn't. - There is a right and wrong, there is an A for one side and a B for the other. Therefor the argument can be won. in my view - if you look to human behavior - it explains god, religion, war, society, greed, lust, ect ect ect -

we don't say depression is caused by satan, because we know its a chemical imbalance that can be fixed by either drugs or therapy - 300 yrs ago, they were possessed by satan.

When we can explain things - they lose their supernatural basis. And thats what i'm saying - i can lay out the case to move away the fog of confusion over how and why and NON of the answers have to do with a God.

therefor, i can erase the basis for and need for a god.

[Craytonic]

Its All Explained.

I am sorry but you are just ranting at this point. I don't see any point in continuing, you can't really debate with someone who has the whole world (from start to finish) figured out (but congrats, I will never achieve that feat). It just is not that simple, and I have my plants to water and suitcases to pack.

‘We know nothing at all. All our knowledge is but the knowledge of schoolchildren. The real nature of things we shall never know.’ - Einstein

[fotoman]

I am sorry but you are just ranting at this point. I don't see any point in continuing, you can't really debate with someone who has the whole world (from start to finish) figured out (but congrats, I will never achieve that feat). It just is not that simple, and I have my plants to water and suitcases to pack.