The Time has Come to Say Something....

[hk45ca]

@edge,

i am glad you at least have been able to get the members attention about this topic. i brought up the price fixing and controlling the market when the evolution was releast but no body would listen.

good job brother. i am in total agreement with you.

marc

[jeff g]

14,000 views. Is that a record? On ANY forum??????????????

BTW...where can I find the best sub?

[obelisque]

[TwoTone]

i am glad you at least have been able to get the members attention about this topic

@Tulsa

That he did...

TT

PS: Can't you just feel the LOVE around here...

[Yannou]

Anyway they are lying I know a dealer that can supply the new Breitling Steelfish superocean ETA version with AR for 200-220$ including shipping vs 338$ from josh.

Interesting...If you could send me a PM...

[fitmic]

Interesting...If you could send me a PM...

Me too!

[crystalcranium]

To me, the bottom line here is where are we going to draw the line of acceptance. Despite 6 pages of primarily angry rants about the injustice of this all, the fact remain that the big 4 still offer a reliable, safe, inexpensive way on the whole, to purchase a wide variety of replica watches. The accusations are serious, but they are still a far better choice than the majority of sites of dubious quality, pricing and security. For a newcomer to the replica world, can we in all seriousness say "Welcome to our community. You are safe from being ripped off by the $900 Submariner sites" and when they do a back flip over Joshua's $188 ETA Sub tell them "Well, you don't want to buy from that guy either...we have ethical problems with him"????? I'm not saying we shouldn't,....just asking what is our stand based in here??? Is it purely ethical, that we will not tolerate lies and a specific level of shady business, or that these guys are really ripping off customers? I believe, when you honestly look at the continium of replica dealers on the whole, the big 4 still lie well within the desireable part of the curve. Do we really do our preamble of protection and care of the replica buyer the best service by branding these guys as bad actors???

I think we need to nip their widening circle of liberties with the truth in advertising in the bud, but I don't think off with their heads is the best answer. I still think a fraud forum would be the best way to keep everyone as honest as possible.

And doesn't Edge's contention that these guys are still minor players in world wide picture of the replica game, dependant on us, have a flip side? Despite the ethical problems, aren't they still a rare relative safe haven for rep buyers? Should we lump them in with the rest???? Does it have to be one or the other??? Can we advise in another way????

[TeeJay]

To me, the bottom line here is where are we going to draw the line of acceptance. Despite 6 pages of primarily angry rants about the injustice of this all, the fact remain that the big 4 still offer a reliable, safe, inexpensive way on the whole, to purchase a wide variety of replica watches.

Dude, are you serious?? What is reliable about someone who lies to and manipulates customers/potential customers, and who willingly missrepresent their product hoping no one will find out? Did you not see the comments pointing out that this is a wholly Asian approach to business? This is not an aberration of behaviour, but Standard Operating Procedure. How many times do I have to say it before people start to listen?? Giving people like this a 'second chance', is only giving them a second chance to continue to lie and rip people off. It would not be tollerated in a n00b scam dealer, and likewise cannot be tollerated by these dealers, just because they are popular. The fact they are popular makes their behaviour even worse, because it makes them 'buddy [censored]ers'.

The accusations are serious, but they are still a far better choice than the majority of sites of dubious quality, pricing and security.

These 'accusations' are PROVEN FACTS. People, myself included, have posted private emails, found posts on other forums, pointed out the lies in the 'defensive' posts of Cartel Dealers in this very thread. At what point will it start sinking in that these dealers HAVE abused people's trust, and if given the chance to do so again, WOULD do so?? Sure, they are charging less than some of the Major scam sites, but they are still liars. It doesn't matter if you're being lied to a little or a lot, when at the end of the day, you are still being lied to! I'm pretty new to the community, so I have no personal bonds with these dealers. For those who have developped good relations with them, I'm sure it is scary to think "Where'm I going to get my watches from now?" The ARE other dealers available. There are other dealers available RIGHT HERE. There are other dealers on cqout. I've seen Rolexes on cqout for

[crystalcranium]

What I was asking for is some sober, calm perspective based reflection on the entire picture here. Dispite your prosecutorial ire and bombast, this is not an either or. Got some news for you dude....all advertising involves subtrifuge in one shade or another. It isn't as simple as "They lied...they're out". That's not how this board operates and survives as a highly respected haven for replica buyers.

[TeeJay]

What I was asking was for some sober, calm perspective based reflection on the entire picture here. Dispite your prosecutorial ire and bombast, this is not an either or. Got some news for you dude....all advertising involves subtrifuge in one shade or another. It isn't as simple as "They lied...they're out". That's not how this board operates and survives as a highly respected haven for replica buyers.

No, legitimate advertising does not involve subterfuge. That is called False Advertising, and I bet there are laws against it in America just as there are laws against it here in England. This is not a legal business, so no one (on either side) has any legal comback should someone come up short on a deal, so it relies on people being 100% honest in all matters of their dealings. Correct me if I'm wrong, this board operates and survives to prevent people from being scammed. Yes? No?

Would the behaviour of the Cartel be tollerated in some n00b Scam Dealer?

Of course it would not.

The fact it is being done by people who have become a part of the community makes it even worse, it makes them buddy [censored]ers, not just scammers.

Do you like being ripped off?

If not, why tollerate it?

[crystalcranium]

No, legitimate advertising does not involve subterfuge. That is called False Advertising, and I bet there are laws against it in America just as there are laws against it here in England. This is not a legal business, so no one (on either side) has any legal comback should someone come up short on a deal, so it relies on people being 100% honest in all matters of their dealings. Correct me if I'm wrong, this board operates and survives to prevent people from being scammed. Yes? No?

Would the behaviour of the Cartel be tollerated in some n00b Scam Dealer?

Of course it would not.

The fact it is being done by people who have become a part of the community makes it even worse, it makes them buddy [censored]ers, not just scammers.

Do you like being ripped off?

If not, why tollerate it?

I'm not going to argue with you. Perhaps I should have used the word "manipulation" to describe what drives all advertising methodologies. Every time you sip on a soft drink or buy a box of detergent, your choice has been manipulated and influenced by inputs of which you are only partially aware. Is that lying in your book? Sure, telling me its an ETA when it's not is a lie and that's exactly what's being called out here. How reprehensible a lie it is in the grand scheme of things is up for debate and discussion. Your vote is loud and clear. You're an absolutist. It either is or it isn't. Sinner or saint. You're the guy carrying the protest sign outside, pumping his fist, chanting your cause,....I'm more a grey zone negotiator trying to broker understanding inside the building between all parties involved.

Several weeks ago, Pugwash posted a bold thread calling attention to "little lies" (notice the wording...little lies...is there such a thing in your book???) that were increasing in number and uncomfortably pushing the limits of advertising ethics. The response to the thread was enthusiastic, angry, and concerned. When no noticible change came of it, Edge posted an even more passionate call to arms to take some action or come to some consensus over what to do about this troubling trend. This won't go away, the dealers in question have to address it. My question in the previous post was about do we do the replica buying community a service throwing out the baby with the bath water?

[coolfire]

That is an interesting statement... one of the most interesting I have seen on any of the Forums. What puzzles me is why you would make it, but not put it on the line and say how many. As it stands it is simply a gratuitous assertion.

And , yes ,I agree about Jay...he has always been straight forward with me.

Hmmm... My money has always gone to Jay only, for the past 2-3 years... And that will continue for as long as he's in this biz.. and as long as I love reps! :thumbsupsmileyanim:

[TeeJay]

I'm not going to argue with you. Perhaps I should have used the word "manipulation" to describe what drives all advertising methodologies. Every time you sip on a soft drink or buy a box of detergent, your choice has been manipulated and influenced by inputs of which you are only partially aware.

Sorry, but I'd have to disagree with you there. Sure, my initial experience of a product might be influenced by advertising, but my continued favortism of one brand over another, is the result of my own experiences, as I said about in the thread about Rolex straps and clasps, in that I do not judge a product on the prestige of its name, but the quality of it as a product. Quick example. I prefer Pepsi to Coke. Always have. Although I will drink Coke if I have to, my preference is for Pepsi, because it is sweeter. However, Coke is the much more widely advertised product.

Sure, telling me its an ETA when it's not is a lie and that's exactly what's being called out here. How reprehensible a lie it is in the grand scheme of things is up for debate and discussion. Your vote is loud and clear. You're an absolutist. It either is or it isn't. Sinner or saint. You're the guy carrying the protest sign outside, pumping his fist, chanting your cause,....I'm more a grey zone negotiator trying to broker understanding inside the building between all parties involved.

On the contrary, I am by nature a negotiator myself (I'm a Libra, so it goes with the territory) I'm perfectly willing to listen to both sides, and am better than most at seeing someone else's point of view, even when it isn't my own, but, I have absolutely no tollerance for liars of any kind. As someone else pointed out, and has gone unnoticed, we are, for the most part, Occidentals looking at this from a Western Business point of view. The point I'm trying to make, is that the Cartel Dealers have a different set of Cultural Values to us in the west. Doesn't make them bad people, but it does mean that they can only be trusted to act according to those cultural values.

That is why I have kept trying to point out that 'partial restrictions' would be useless, as to people with Chinese cultural values, that is taken as weakness, and an opportunity to continue as before, and it frustrates me when people do not understand this, and, out of the goodness of their hearts, want to give them a second chance, oblivious to the fact that it will not be viewed as kindness or a second chance, but merely an opportunity to continue as usual, because the behaviour has been 'tollerated and excused'.

Several weeks ago, Pugwash posted a bold thread calling attention to "little lies" (notice the wording...little lies...is there such a thing in your book???) that were increasing in number and uncomfortably pushing the limits of advertising ethics. The response to the thread was enthusiastic, angry, and concerned. When no noticible change came of it, Edge posted an even more passionate call to arms to take some action or come to some consensus over what to do about this troubling trend. This won't go away, the dealers in question have to address it.

And the point I've tried to make, is the dealers will not address it. Andrew and Angus have both commented on this thread and both were proven to be lying to get themselves off the hook, so that was not addressing anything. As I said above, people need to realize that they are dealing with a very different set of cultural values to their own, where the truth is as fluid as water as long as it serves its purpose.

My question in the previous post was about do we do the replica buying community a service throwing out the baby with the bath water?

And as I answered you, of course it would be doing this community a service, because it would mean the dealers who have been proven to be liars and manipulators will not be around to continue to do so. As I said, there are OTHER dealers available besides the Cartel. There are other dealers HERE. There are other dealers on cqout. I can't vouch for their honesty as I have not yet used their services, but I would rather risk money on a new dealer than risk money on one who had been proven a liar. Like I said. $20 (appx) Rolex. Might not be a spot on accurate rep (I haven't seen one yet, so I can't say it is), but, for $20 it's certainly a good start for a conversion project, or as a watch that would only be worn when you wear the 'good shoes'. If you're concerned about the community, then maybe rather than trying to negotiate with people who will only lie again, it might be more productive to seek out new lines of supply.

[crystalcranium]

Sorry, but I'd have to disagree with you there. Sure, my initial experience of a product might be influenced by advertising, but my continued favortism of one brand over another, is the result of my own experiences, as I said about in the thread about Rolex straps and clasps, in that I do not judge a product on the prestige of its name, but the quality of it as a product. Quick example. I prefer Pepsi to Coke. Always have. Although I will drink Coke if I have to, my preference is for Pepsi, because it is sweeter. However, Coke is the much more widely advertised product.

On the contrary, I am by nature a negotiator myself (I'm a Libra, so it goes with the territory) I'm perfectly willing to listen to both sides, and am better than most at seeing someone else's point of view, even when it isn't my own, but, I have absolutely no tollerance for liars of any kind. As someone else pointed out, and has gone unnoticed, we are, for the most part, Occidentals looking at this from a Western Business point of view. The point I'm trying to make, is that the Cartel Dealers have a different set of Cultural Values to us in the west. Doesn't make them bad people, but it does mean that they can only be trusted to act according to those cultural values.

That is why I have kept trying to point out that 'partial restrictions' would be useless, as to people with Chinese cultural values, that is taken as weakness, and an opportunity to continue as before, and it frustrates me when people do not understand this, and, out of the goodness of their hearts, want to give them a second chance, oblivious to the fact that it will not be viewed as kindness or a second chance, but merely an opportunity to continue as usual, because the behaviour has been 'tollerated and excused'.

And the point I've tried to make, is the dealers will not address it. Andrew and Angus have both commented on this thread and both were proven to be lying to get themselves off the hook, so that was not addressing anything. As I said above, people need to realize that they are dealing with a very different set of cultural values to their own, where the truth is as fluid as water as long as it serves its purpose.

And as I answered you, of course it would be doing this community a service, because it would mean the dealers who have been proven to be liars and manipulators will not be around to continue to do so. As I said, there are OTHER dealers available besides the Cartel. There are other dealers HERE. There are other dealers on cqout. I can't vouch for their honesty as I have not yet used their services, but I would rather risk money on a new dealer than risk money on one who had been proven a liar. Like I said. $20 (appx) Rolex. Might not be a spot on accurate rep (I haven't seen one yet, so I can't say it is), but, for $20 it's certainly a good start for a conversion project, or as a watch that would only be worn when you wear the 'good shoes'. If you're concerned about the community, then maybe rather than trying to negotiate with people who will only lie again, it might be more productive to seek out new lines of supply.

As I said, your condemnation of said dealers and their practices is noted and clear. You obviously believe they would be a continued detrement to this community. I don't understand, other than some pretty obvious narsisistic self aggrandizing, why you continue to challenge my desire to have a discussion (with others obviously) in another direction.

[TeeJay]

As I said, your condemnation of said dealers and their practices is noted and clear. You obviously believe they would be a continued detrement to this community.

What I believe, is not the point. The point is the facts that have been PROVEN (by both myself and others) that they would be a continued detriment to the community.

I don't understand, other than some pretty obvious narsisistic self aggrandizing, why you continue to challenge my desire to have a discussion (with others obviously) in another direction.

Self-aggrandizing narcissism? How is my pointing out facts self-aggrandizing or narcissistic? If you do not understand why I continue to, not challenge your desire, but point out the uselessness of it, then I have clearly wasted my time in pointing out the lies and manipulations that these dealers are guilty of, and I find that more than a tad frustrating. If you want dealers, I have GIVEN YOU dealers, both here and elsewhere, so why keep believing that some arrangement can be made with the Cartel for them to return here as trusted dealers? You've been given the facts, why are you refusing to accept them? That is my only reason for challenging what you have said, because to be honest, you sound like you are saying "I don't care if Andrew and Josh rip people off, they were popular guys, so I'm going to buy from them regardless of the proof being that they cannot be trusted." I don't mean to put words into your mouth, but that is what your message is coming across as. And so by extension, it comes across that if you think it's okay to keep dealing with them here despite the risk of getting ripped off, then it's okay for others to deal with them here and also possibly get ripped off.

If people want to keep dealing with the Cartel, then fine, that's their right. But. This forum exists to inform people about dealers who ARE trustworthy and warn them about ones who are not, not allow people to potentially get ripped off by dealers who WERE trustworthy, have now 'gone over to the Dark Side', but are still being 'given the chance' to make things right.

[crystalcranium]

What I believe, is not the point. The point is the facts that have been PROVEN (by both myself and others) that they would be a continued detriment to the community.

Self-aggrandizing narcissism? How is my pointing out facts self-aggrandizing or narcissistic? If you do not understand why I continue to, not challenge your desire, but point out the uselessness of it, then I have clearly wasted my time in pointing out the lies and manipulations that these dealers are guilty of, and I find that more than a tad frustrating. If you want dealers, I have GIVEN YOU dealers, both here and elsewhere, so why keep believing that some arrangement can be made with the Cartel for them to return here as trusted dealers? You've been given the facts, why are you refusing to accept them? That is my only reason for challenging what you have said, because to be honest, you sound like you are saying "I don't care if Andrew and Josh rip people off, because they were popular guys, so I'm going to buy from them regardles of the proof being that they cannot be trusted." I don' tmean to put words into your mouth, but that is what your message is coming across as. And so by extension, it comes across that if you think it's okay to keep dealing with them here despite the risk of getting ripped off, then it's okay for others to deal with them here and also possibly get ripped off.

If people want to keep dealing with the Cartel, then fine, that's their right. But. This forum exists to inform people about dealers who ARE trustworthy, not allow people to potentially get ripped off by dealers who WERE trustworthy, and have now 'gone over to the Dark Side'.

Uncle...you win

.......last word freak.....

[Guest sony]

So what's the deal?

After combined total of more than 100 pages of discussion at 3 forum, this incident very much resembles precedents...

A problem comes up, we discuss for days, dealers ignore or lie more, time passes, people forget... life goes on.

Dealers get fatter and cockier.

[TeeJay]

Uncle...you win

.......last word freak.....

I really do not mean to come over as a last word freak (although I know I can appear that way) it is just a case of I have found out and posted information about the Cartel which proved their dishonesty, I have pointed out the differences in cultural attitudes prevelent and how they cannot be dealt with in Western Terms, so I just find it frustrating when people appear to ignore that evidence and still believe that there is a more diplomatic sollution, despite being shown evidence to the contrary.

Peace out.

[TeeJay]

So what's the deal?

After combined total of more than 100 pages of discussion at 3 forum, this incident very much resembles precedents...

A problem comes up, we discuss for days, dealers ignore or lie more, time passes, people forget... life goes on.

Dealers get fatter and cockier.

What's the deal? Who knows. Depends what the admin on the various forums are prepared to do about the situation.

[b16a2]

@ CC and Teejay, it's good to see a disagreement about this, but in a way that is conducted with some decorum

Far too many times in this post I have seen things blown way out of proportion, when in actual fact we all want the same result, but through different approaches.

Myself, I believe that some form of punishment is necessary. What they did was to abuse their status, based on the evidence provided in this forum. To banish them forever, too harsh. To let them off and say don't do it again, too lenient. We have to strike a happy medium. A medium that will allow us to progress with a hobby, that for most part is bloody enjoyable, so there is no doubt in our mind, which causes us to question ourselves everytime we press that 'buy now' button.

[TeeJay]

@ CC and Teejay, it's good to see a disagreement about this, but in a way that is conducted with some decorum

Far too many times in this post I have seen things blown way out of proportion, when in actual fact we all want the same result, but through different approaches.

Myself, I believe that some form of punishment is necessary. What they did was to abuse their status, based on the evidence provided in this forum. To banish them forever, too harsh. To let them off and say don't do it again, too lenient. We have to strike a happy medium. A medium that will allow us to progress with a hobby, that for most part is bloody enjoyable, so there is no doubt in our mind, which causes us to question ourselves everytime we press that 'buy now' button.

I'd like to think I've been nothing but polite in my discussions here. My use of the term buddy [censored]er might come across as less than, but to be honest, I cannot think of any other phrase to appropriately describe that kind of behaviour.

I can see what you're saying, but as others have pointed out, a n00b scammer would be instantly banned, would they not? That being the case, why should the Cartel be shown any less stringent behaviour? After all, by being trusted members of the community, that makes their behaviour more distastefull, because it was directed to people who respecetd and trusted them.

It just seems to me that people want to 'give them a chance' because they were trusted members, which is admirable, but, that kind of leniency does not translate into Chinese Business Practice, and would simply be taken as weakness, and it is the apparent inability to grasp these cultural differences, and the implications on how things should proceed, that I have found a tad frustrating.

[eddhead]

Uncle...you win

.......last word freak.....

Ok, so I will try it.. but just once..

Tee-Jay, I think you need to be very carefull with the hard line position you are taking here. I am not condoning false advertising and 'little white', black, or othewise lies. I am also not entirely comfortable with the establishment of a 'cartel' but I am equally not sure that cartels are unethical. Certainly, they are not consumer friendly, and pose a threat and should at least be fully transparent, but I am on the fence with respect to what to do about it.

My larger concern is in relation to a TJGladeRaider post on another thread. If we are not carefull we are going to begin losing valuable members soon. Historically this has been a place watch enthusisats come to to discuss watches first, and dealers related matters second, but lately it has been the other way around, and it is not fun for people anymore. We all benefitted from the comradarie, friendship, and exchange of ideas and I worry about those things being at risk . We are like a virtual community here and I think we enjoy each others virtual company.

Cllearly these are issues that needs to be addressed and I give both Pug and Edge credit for having the guts to raise it. My fondest hope is that we look at them, work them out, and move past them as friends, That means we have to be sensitive to the realtionships and friendships some of the members have with the dealers in question or we will tear this place apart.

On another thread, a few of our more respected members have already expressed dissatisfaction with the virtoral and rhetoric expressed here and as a result have indicated a reluctance to continue to post. We could begin to lose members.. valuable contributint members... if we are not sensitive to the relationships that have been established between these dealers and our community these many years. Do we need to police the place? For sure. But let's be reasonable with our actions.

To the dealers:

On the surface this thread would appear to be a push back on the establishment of "cartel", partnership, loose affiliation, whatever. And while this is important, for least several of the posters I believe that for many, the overriding issue ontinues to be a lack of closure over issues rasied in the "little white lies" thread. The level of noise around here would substatially drop, if you took acountabilit for using terms like ETA 2836 etc to descibe an ETA CLONE movement, admitted that it constituted an error in judgement and stipulated it will not happen again. It seems to me that the people hurting the most over this are the same ones you worked so hard to foster relationships with ... it is a personal thing with them.. they trusted you and they feel like you let them down. But it is not something that cannot be overcome..... it would be a shame to jeopardize all those relationships you worked so hard to nurture over this... especially when they are still salvagable.

[b16a2]

I can see what you're saying, but as others have pointed out, a n00b scammer would be instantly banned, would they not? That being the case, why should the Cartel be shown any less stringent behaviour? After all, by being trusted members of the community, that makes their behaviour more distastefull, because it was directed to people who respecetd and trusted them.

I see your point. A new dealer who came in and acted in this way would be given the shove. They have been around for a long time and should know better than to do such a thing. Personally I feel a harsher punishment is the most suitable. I think a ban forever is too harsh. Stopping their dealer rights and outside linking would protect noobs from any possible direct future problems. Ok, people can recommend them, but the mods would have to duly take that unto themselves to prevent such recommendations being made publicly. It would also allow them to re-establish themselves and maybe if they can PROVE to us that it won't happen again, they can be re-instated. This would show them we do mean it and anymore acts such as the ones we have seen will be followed by a suggestion to hop skip and......

Hell I've only been here for a year, so I could be talking out my [censored] here. This is my view. They have completely abused their trust, is it forgiveable? If it were to never happen again, tkae a punishment and learn from it I think so.

It is clear that we are all after one thing - - - - A safe community. Now again this all comes down to how this can be achieved. Only the admin and mods can decide that fate based on our voting and our views. Time will tell.......

[TeeJay]

Ok, so I will try it.. but just once..

Tee-Jay, I think you need to be very carefull with the hard line position you are taking here. I am not condoning false advertising and 'little white', black, or othewise lies. I am also not entirely comfortable with the establishment of a 'cartel' but I am equally not sure that cartels are unethical. Certainly, they are not consumer friendly, and pose a threat and should at least be fully transparent, but I am on the fence with respect to what to do about it.

My larger concern is in relation to a TJGladeRaider post on another thread. Historically this has been a place watch enthusisats come to to discuss watches, not dealers and we have all benefitted from the comradarie, and exchange of ideas. We are like a virtual community here and I think we enjoy each others virtual company. This is an issue that needs to be addressed and I give both Pug and Edge credit for having the guts to raise it. But it has to he addressed in a reasoned, careful way, and we need to be sensitive to the realtionships some of the members have with the dealers in question or we will tear this place apart.

On another thread, a few of our more respected members have already expressed dissatisfaction with the virtoral and rhetoric expressed here and as a result have indicated a reluctance to continue to post. We could begin to lose members.. valuable contributint members... if we are not sensitive to the relationships that have been established between these dealers and our community these many years. Do we need to police the place? For sure. But let's be reasonable with our actions.

To the dealers:

On the surface this thread would appear to be a push back on the establishment of "cartel", partnership, loose affiliation, whatever. And while this is important, for least several of the posters I believe that for many, the overriding issue ontinues to be a lack of closure over issues rasied in the "little white lies" thread. The level of noise around here would substatially drop, if for instance using terms like ETA 2836 etc to descibe an ETA CLONE movement constituted an error in judgement and stipulated it will not happen again. It seems to me that the people hurting the most over this are the same ones you worked so hard to foster relationships with.. it would be a shame to jeopardize those relationships when they are still clearly salvagable.

Given your comment to the dealers and the fact that you think that those relationships are salvagable, it is pretty clear that you are not prepared to accept the points I have made, so I will not waste any more of my time trying to make them. If you want to continue to deal with the Cartel, that is by all means your right, but given the information that has been posted, I would think anyone who still felt they were trustworthy is doing little more than lying to themselves, and deserving of whatever happens. I've given the information that I had to help others, if they choose to ignore that information, so be it.

[TeeJay]

I see your point. A new dealer who came in and acted in this way would be given the shove. They have been around for a long time and should know better than to do such a thing. Personally I feel a harsher punishment is the most suitable. I think a ban forever is too harsh. Stopping their dealer rights and outside linking would protect noobs from any possible direct future problems. Ok, people can recommend them, but the mods would have to duly take that unto themselves to prevent such recommendations being made publicly. It would also allow them to re-establish themselves and maybe if they can PROVE to us that it won't happen again, they can be re-instated. This would show them we do mean it and anymore acts such as the ones we have seen will be followed by a suggestion to hop skip and......

Hell I've only been here for a year, so I could be talking out my [censored] here. This is my view. They have completely abused their trust, is it forgiveable? If it were to never happen again, tkae a punishment and learn from it I think so.

It is clear that we are all after one thing - - - - A safe community. Now again this all comes down to how this can be achieved. Only the admin and mods can decide that fate based on our voting and our views. Time will tell.......

I quite agree with what you're saying, and if we were talking about Western dealers, then I would agree, a lesson could be learned and trust rebuilt over time, but we are not. We are talking about Chinese Dealers, who have different cultural values and considerably different business ethics, and what works to make one group repentant, the other group will simply see as a green light to continue as before, and I've found it frustrating that people don't seem to be taking that information on board.