The Time has Come to Say Something....

[andreww]

Exactly my thoughts. Right now I can only assume (which I hate doing), that the

[eddhead]

Exactly my thoughts. Right now I can only assume (which I hate doing), that the "monopoly" is that the 4 dealers in question are allegedly buying all the watches (specific models) from the maker, so that no other dealers can get any. Since the "cartel" are the only ones that have the model, they then can charge an inflated price for them. Is this correct?

... or they corner the supply of a given good, make the commodity scarce, and dirve up the price. in this case, if a smaller dealer has fewer product on the wholesale market, the price will go up. Think of the oil cartels... they set whatever the hell price they want by controllling supply

[Edge]

We now have a situation where, 4 dealers,

Are trying to control who is allowed to sell on forums by pressurng staff over some issues

Are trying to corner the market by discouraging the factories from sellign to the "smaller" dealers by using the fact that they have a massive customer base, thanks to us using their site, to try anf force some things from the factory by threatening to take business elsewhee.

Are buying up as much stock of popular models as possible in order to control as much of the market for that watch as possible and control the prices etc.

Are controlling who can and can't have PAYPAL

Are trying to push out smaller dealers to create a larger market share.....

The list goes on, I have seen and heard it all, and the main thing is that the dealers in question can't really come out a say too much in fear of being further isolated.

[b16a2]

Ok I started off reading the thread about a cartel, and got to page 4 and it seemed to be all about a slanging match about the B&R, haven't we been there before!

The B&R project was a disappointment for me. It supposedly came with a good movement and superlume . Like has been mentioned, the photo's of the movement were lacking, but does this point the finger to the dealer knowingly removing the picture and selling it as something it is not? It's circumstancial, but very suspicious.

Sinc this watch we haven't seen anything like it happen again. So was it to test the waters, or was it a pure mistake? Even if it were a case of testing the water, of course the dealers are not going to admit it was a case of seeing if they could get away with it, it would destroy the trust we are looking for.

I happen to believe it was a big [censored] up. Mistakes were made, issues were raised. As Edge has said, it is something we can all use to make decision for the future, BUT it is ridiculous to keep bringing it up in such an aggressive manner. It is going to get us no-where.

If we have a problem with a cartel group, price fixing and what the hell else I don't know, lets address this issue, maybe in light of the B&R issue, but for a whole post to become a slanging match between TWG (who is the only dealer who was in the [censored] with the B&R who has come forth and willing to post here) and us as the community.

We are a community and need to stick together. Thiis our safe haven for buying quality replicas from qualty dealers. - Agreed

We need to address the possibility of the B&R being more than a mistake, and make sure it doesn't happen again - Agreed

We need to pull together and sort out an issue of price fixing if there is one - Agreed

We need to try and increase the dealers quality of service to how it was just a year ago - Agreed

What we don't need is to [censored] off the dealers, and for them to [censored] us off. Yes there are plenty of other dealers who are there to supply a great service, but I have had good service from Joshua, TWG and Angus in the past, and I for one don't want to see their services disappear. Let's sort this out constructively!

However, if there is some evidence that does conclude there is something sinister going on, it should be put forward. It would make people's lives alot easier in understanding the bigger picture!

[fotoman]

I think ongoing diligence about the misrepresentations is a good thing but I agree with some of the recent posts that much of this, movement issues, lume AR etc, was covered passionately in the LWL thread.

What about customer complaints and the issue of collusion to inflate prices????? Are these still issues that warrant discussion?

Crystal - Andrew said there was price fixing in one of the other threads today.

I don't think the BR issue was "covered" in the other thread.

Here is why - First off, the BR is still listed as Asia ETA when they are using 2$ movements.

We, the community, said, Ok, we understand some of the BS is just sales - but movement fraud is fraud.

And - they haven't changed a bit. Still same watch, just now put Asia ETA.

I love andrew and josh, but, i can't stand for this. If we don't speak up now then it will only get worse. The time has come for a "come to jesus" moment. The dealers being spoken about can chose 2 paths 1. is straighten up - fly right - and stop BS'ing US, we wil figure it out eventually (that is the dumb part, how long did they think they could go on selling 2$ movements as ETA - and thats the part that really chaps my ass because they basically thinkn that i and All of us are stupid.)

Then, they need to stop this bs about "its the factory" that is price fixing not us. Cmon

if there are 1000 stock of these watches - and your not buing all of them up, then how are you the "only" dealer who can sell them. I mean the BS coming out of both sides of his mouth is unreal.

I can't sit on the fence and watch anymore. Its gone to far.

[ryyannon]

I see Josh is in 'da house....

[crystalcranium]

We now have a situation where, 4 dealers,

Are trying to control who is allowed to sell on forums by pressurng staff over some issues

Are trying to corner the market by discouraging the factories from sellign to the "smaller" dealers by using the fact that they have a massive customer base, thanks to us using their site, to try anf force some things from the factory by threatening to take business elsewhee.

Are buying up as much stock of popular models as possible in order to control as much of the market for that watch as possible and control the prices etc.

Are controlling who can and can't have PAYPAL

Are trying to push out smaller dealers to create a larger market share.....

The list goes on, I have seen and heard it all, and the main thing is that the dealers in question can't really come out a say too much in fear of being further isolated.

Are they doing this as individuals or as a group pooling resourses and contacts???

If it's individually, then..what issue can we have with it. This is the business. Big fish get the opportunities, little fish get eaten. Even operating as a group, it's hard to make a judgement about their practices and motivations in an illegal trade. Maybe in the end the product will be better and more available if controlled by a group. When I buy a watch from a Swatch company or one of the other Swiss cartels, I dont loose sleep over RGM struggling in Lancaster PA.

[Edge]

The problem is that thye B&R scam wasn't the first time this has happened.

[eddhead]

We now have a situation where, 4 dealers,

Are trying to control who is allowed to sell on forums by pressurng staff over some issues

which is exactly the problem with RWI.. conflict of interest arising from dealer/site sponsership. Frankly admin staff at that site GAVE these dealers that power when they forked over the purse strings... sorry but that is the way it is... try putting the jeannie back in the bottle now.

Are trying to corner the market by discouraging the factories from sellign to the "smaller" dealers by using the fact that they have a massive customer base, thanks to us using their site, to try anf force some things from the factory by threatening to take business elsewhee.

Are buying up as much stock of popular models as possible in order to control as much of the market for that watch as possible and control the prices etc.

Are controlling who can and can't have PAYPAL

Are trying to push out smaller dealers to create a larger market share.....

The list goes on, I have seen and heard it all, and the main thing is that the dealers in question can't really come out a say too much in fear of being further isolated.

It is hard to think that is not the case. It it is, i.e. if these dealers are going to collude on the supply side, shouldn't we be thinking of some way to collude on the demand side...

[b16a2]

What other scams have occured aaprt from the B&R? Do you mean other watches that have had different movements to ones advertised?

[Lyndonville]

Dude, you have a large set of brass balls.

[crystalcranium]

It is hard to think that is not the case. It it is, i.e. if these dealers are going to collude on the supply side, shouldn't we be thinking of some way to collude on the demand side...

Let me propose a hypothetical. If collusion among a small number of dealers didn't give the small guys a snowball's chance in hell but it did give us great watches, very affordable, and if the dealers in question would clean up their advertising claims ethics, would we give a damn about the little guy. Would we be having an altruistic discussion about fair business practices if the Cartel was giving us what we want? What if the price fixing was in our favor?????

[fotoman]

However, if there is some evidence that does conclude there is something sinister going on, it should be put forward. It would make people's lives alot easier in understanding the bigger picture!

the BR issue has clearly not been taken care of as they are still selling cheap movements and calling them asia eta.

Do i want to confront the dealers that have treated me well and take time to build relationships with new ones? no

but, these guys are walking all over us and must think were stupid that we would never realize what they are up to.

The price fixing has been admitted by andrew in another thread

The prices have been going up. What is this BS with the 400 Chronomat

or even what is this BS with the 300 PO 007 edition. Same Freaking watch with a different seconds hand - costs 100 more?

if your not insulted by all of this blatent lying, fraud price fixing ect, well i am.

In response to this BS they put out more BS. They didn't take us seriously int he last thread. So we need to be more agressive.

This is totally in opposition to my interests, i'm prepared to burn a valuable bridge here - because i just can't let it get worse.

I hope the rest of you that believe that the BR/ White Lies thread realize that nothing has changed -

i hope you all think through this as seriously as i have. I hope you come to the same conclusions. If we don't stand up, they will continue to do business as usual and you will continue to not know what movements come in your watches.

the BR is the photographic evidence of the collusion + Fraud that were talking about.

I hope that this is a slap in the face of the dealers - i hope it serves to wake them up

[eddhead]

Let me propose a hypothetical. If collusion among a small number of dealers didn't give the small guys a snowball's chance in hell but it did give us great watches, very affordable, and if the dealers in question would clean up their advertising claims ethics, would we give a damn about the little guy. Would we be having an altruistic discussion about fair business practices if the Cartel was giving us what we want? What if the price fixing was in our favor?????

On the otherhand, hypothetically, once a small number of highly influential dealers acting with a common interest control the supply, what is to prevent them from charging whatever they want, and selling low-grade products? As a consumer, what recourse do you have if you cannot take your business elsewhere. Lack of competition in the market means lack of choices and leverage for the consumer. That cannot be in our long term or short term interests. Do you think ExxonMobile would have makde $10BN in profits last qtr if they actually had to compete for your business?

[Edge]

Other watches have had "Misleading" representations, which we have put up with until they started using it to fraudulantly advertise what movement is in the watch.

Remember the whole Sapphire Crystal saga, where they said that some watches had "Synthetic Sapphire" so translated in to truth, that means NON sapphire crystal. We accepted it at the time saying, maybe translation issue, maybe misinformation or whatever but coupled onto the B&R etc. these little thing just keep adding together.

As for the cartel, yes we shouldn't complain to watchdog etc. as it is an illegal trade and therefore there are less than honest people involved, BUT the whole point of this place is to try and collect togetehr the most honest people involved to try and allow for safe and relatively trouble free trade of these goods. If we start allowing them to lie to us and control prices and who gets to deal etc. the how long before we start seeing outrageous prices, lack of diversity and lack of quality.

When they control the boards, they have no obligation to quality control or honesty about new models or developments as noone is here to disprove them, we are in a good place at the moment with the choices we have available to us, and shortening this choice will only serve to drive up prices and drive down quality and service.

the issue with RWI is not the fact that they have 5 star dealers, it is the fact that some of the cartel dealers are affecting policy, who do you think lobby's for the removal of dealers? when in reality the issues with these new dealers are smaller than those that we are having with the so calle "trusted" 4 reffered to here.

[fotoman]

Let me propose a hypothetical. If collusion among a small number of dealers didn't give the small guys a snowball's chance in hell but it did give us great watches, very affordable, and if the dealers in question would clean up their advertising claims ethics, would we give a damn about the little guy. Would we be having an altruistic discussion about fair business practices if the Cartel was giving us what we want? What if the price fixing was in our favor?????

Crystal - they are Lieing to us. Look, when i go buy a rolex watch from a dealer, its price fixed. Rolex has a contract with its dealers saying you can't sell for less than X.

Ok, Fine

But - this is a backroom handshake and they refuse to admit it. To make it worse, assume that Rolex started putting asian movements in its watches. They would still command a high price guaranteed by the price fixing.

this isn't just a group of people that want to make a few extra bucks, this is a sustained conspiracy to defraud.

[crystalcranium]

As for the cartel, yes we shouldn't complain to watchdog etc. as it is an illegal trade and therefore there are less than honest people involved, BUT the whole point of this place is to try and collect togetehr the most honest people involved to try and allow for safe and relatively trouble free trade of these goods. If we start allowing them to lie to us and control prices and who gets to deal etc. the how long before we start seeing outrageous prices, lack of diversity and lack of quality.

So what are we to do????? I'm not challenging your contention something should be done.....just asking what can be done? I'm ready to carry a sign and picket!

[eddhead]

the issue with RWI is not the fact that they have 5 star dealers, it is the fact that some of the cartel dealers are affecting policy, who do you think lobby's for the removal of dealers? when in reality the issues with these new dealers are smaller than those that we are having with the so calle "trusted" 4 reffered to here.

Look, I do not want to argue about RWI because I made a decision a long time ago to not frequent the place, but i cannot help but think that designation of '5 star dealers' has a direct influence on how much influence dealers wield in terms of policy. It is all about the power of the purse.

[Physher007]

"Replica Watches group is a website dedicated to provide you with the most reliable information available about replica watches. We provide information on every aspect of replica watches, from detailed analysis of the movements inside the replicas to the best info available on the websites and dealers that provide replica watches. To make sure we provide unbiased info, all the info you will get is provided from the good and bad experiences by our 4000+ members forum. "

"Some vendors say that their replica watches are 100% Swiss; others say that they have Swiss movements; and others represent their replicas to be Grade 1 or higher. A buyer must understand that there is NO grading system for replicas, thus don

[Guest sony]

The below is the e-mail I received from Joshua of perfect-clones aka WatchWindersWorld.

I asked if he could get me a better price on the Breitling Chronomat Evo.

After that e-mail, I just stopped buying from those 4 dealers.

Whatever they say is NOT justified, because they charge at least 200%-300% of the GuangZhou street price, and who knows how much more they charge out of factory price.

---------e-mail from joshua-------------

HI ,

Sorry .. no deal..you will not get this watch other than andrew, angus, king and me..

Quit trying cos we have all tied down the price..

thanks

joshua

Edited March 27, 2007 by sony

[chubbchubb]

67.... and counting....

[Edge]

What we are asking at the moment is that people vote with their feet and refuse to deal with them and support some of the othr dealers, whoever you choose I'm not out to support any dealer in particular but it's time to do something. It may also be an option to remove any of their links to off site website selling reps so that new members don't get suked in.

This is at least until we can come up with a long term solution. OR they change their ways and stop lying to us, as has been mentioned the B&R thing is still going on cos they haven't changed their sites to portray the fact that the movement is absolutely crap, and not an ETA or direct copy of one.

The best case scenario is for us to go back to having out trusted dealers and everything be open and HONEST. If that includes these 4 then GREAT if not so be it, I would rather do with a little less choice than run the risk of being lied to.

I have nothing personally against any of the 4 dealers I have dealt with 3 of them in the past without issue, but it has to be a big picture thing and not, well they are fine with me so screw everyone else mentality.

If one of us gets screwed we all get screwed we are a cumminity, so lets stand as one.

What we are asking at the moment is that people vote with their feet and refuse to deal with them and support some of the othr dealers, whoever you choose I'm not out to support any dealer in particular but it's time to do something. It may also be an option to remove any of their links to off site website selling reps so that new members don't get suked in.

This is at least until we can come up with a long term solution. OR they change their ways and stop lying to us, as has been mentioned the B&R thing is still going on cos they haven't changed their sites to portray the fact that the movement is absolutely crap, and not an ETA or direct copy of one.

The best case scenario is for us to go back to having out trusted dealers and everything be open and HONEST. If that includes these 4 then GREAT if not so be it, I would rather do with a little less choice than run the risk of being lied to.

I have nothing personally against any of the 4 dealers I have dealt with 3 of them in the past without issue, but it has to be a big picture thing and not, well they are fine with me so screw everyone else mentality.

If one of us gets screwed we all get screwed we are a cumminity, so lets stand as one.

[RWG Technical]

REF: are there other watches with misrepresented movements in them?

Yes there are...

The Omega Aqua Terra listed as having an "ETA 2892" in it, has a copy Seagull movement, and it's been and continues to be listed this way.

RG

[crystalcranium]

The below is the e-mail I received from Joshua of perfect-clones aka WatchWindersWorld.

I asked if he could get me a better price on the Breitling Chronomat Evo.

After that e-mail, I just stopped buying from those 4 dealers.

Whatever they say is NOT justified, because they charge at least 200%-300% of the GuangZhou street price, and who knows how much more they charge out of factory price.

---------e-mail from joshua-------------

HI ,

Sorry .. no deal..you will not get this watch other than andrew, angus, king and me..

Quit trying cos we have all tied down the price..

thanks

joshua

Wow...Newbie balls. Thanks for sharing that with us. Sorry Josh, but that email is disgusting.

[zetterdawg]

I bought the B&R.

I love the watch - it's probably one of my favorites if not my favorite.

Do I wish it had the superlume as advertised? Yes

Do I wish it had a better movement? Yes (and I'm crossing my fingers than the shitty engine doesn't give out)

Would I have bought it for $250 knowing it had almost no lume and a crappy movement? Probably not.

Visually it is very close to the gen. That's worth something to me, but I would prefer not to be manipulated into a purchase.

Buyers need to vote with their dollars. Start buying your reps from dealers that cowboy up and tell you the good with the bad about the watches.

The only problem with that is some rep supply is being controlled among 4 dealers (ie the hublot, who else carries it??) Voting with your dollars will help with that. If manufacturers make exclusive deals with dealers that jack up prices and we don't buy them, the manufacturers will open up supply to other dealers. It's all dollars and (common) sense.

Z