Tragic news........shooting at Virginia college

[Guest TTK]

The bottom line is, simply outlawing gun ownership to law abiding citizens will not solve crime, whether it's homicides, thefts, rapes, whatever.

Correct....you cannot wipe out ALL crime......but this wasn't a crime until after the leading events.....and those events were quite simple........this guy was ALLOWED to walk into a gun store and buy

WEAPONS.......WEAPONS of MASS DESTRUCTION.........if there was a ban on all posession of WMD's..........then he would have to gone underground......that makes it more difficult......and perhaps he would have not been able to obtain the WEAPONS of MASS DETSRUCTION....perhaps he would have had to resort to a chair leg......or a big knife.......or a katana......which would surely have been more noticeable than a couple of 9mm with high capacity magazines.....!

Give me an argument that shows that ALL US citizens should be allowed to own a Calico 100 or a MAC 10.......AR15........there is no LOGICAL argument for it.....it's the YANKS in your country not the Americans that need to waken up and realise the question.....HOW MANY MORE MASS BODY COUNTS DOES THE ANTICHRIST HAVE TO COMMIT IN ORDER FOR YOU TO SMELL THE COFFEE......your'e living in a country that is tearing itself apart from within.....MUSLIMS all over the world are uniting....and you people are dividing....from politics.....to your judicial system.....to innefective Intelligence agencies.....police forces.......religious bodies........lack of tolerance at both extremes of the spectrum........wake up...all empires crumble from within before external forces start picking at the bones.......!

I've listened to ALL of the rhetoric of gun lovers......( I'm an ex firearms owner.....having competed in PP1 and PP2 competition).....I understand guns very well.......regardless of all the rhetoric.......to date...no Pro-Gun lobbyist has presented a logical argument for the posession of firearms......they can't........simply because there is no logical argument......self defense....why have a police force......if the police force isnt working...change it.....hunting.....there's no need for hunting nowadays.....protecting your family....haven't you heard about REALLY secure locks and alarm systems.....!

If I go to sleep and wakened by a noise.....I make as much noise as possible.....and switch on every light......I've never had anyone hang about in the circumstances....burglars in the UK ...are on a mission to steal assets.....DVD players......jewellery etc....they don't hang about to confront the householder ......and I simply call the insurance company and the only fight is whether I'm getting new for old policy....!

In the States...it's different......Americans are so paranoid.....they'll arm themselves to the teeth......robbers know that and go prepared......usually it ends up as simple burglary.....with the burglar stealing YOUR firearms and then shooting the next victim....I don't know many robbers who register with the local authorities .....they arm themselves from the rest of the populace....!

The question is very simple.......!

1. Would you think that if EVERY person in the US was disarmed ....it would be a safer place...!

or

2. Would you think that if EVERY person in the US was armed........it would be a safer place.....!

Every journey of a 1000 miles begins with a single step.......it's a hard journey....but you have to undertake it.......if not......where do you think coloured people would be....without those pioneers who campaigned for equality.......where do you think the US itself would be if they hadn't taken the steps to overthrow the tyranny of George III's rule.......!

As for hunting......you're no more a hunter than I am a rocket scientist......EVERY hunter I've ever spoken with was a potential sociopath......unable to recognise the consequences of his actions.....but ever willing to try and justify his outlook and purpose...."we're simply culling the population"....truth is with very few exceptions....Innuits and those who live in totally isolated areas have the NEED to hunt....YOU have no NEED to hunt.....you can simply walk down to Wal-Mart........but NO.....you're a big macho hunter......are you not...it's MY RIGHT.......me Tarzan....you Jane.....huh.....!

I wouldn't expect it to be, considering that the New York metro area alone could account for almost half of the population of England/Wales in it's entirety.

Typical Yank........boasting again......tell us again about how 3000 "AMERICANS" died on 9/11.....!

Edited April 17, 2007 by TTK

[KB]

Guy's I fully understand the need to explore how these astrosities happen but I do wish you could have taken the time to start new threads for this.

For me in this thread, it's time to morn the children.

Ken

[Admin]

Just STOP right here....This is not a for/against guns threads. Any further discussion about this, and I will close the thread, so please show some respect to the threads topic!

Edit: I see Ken jumped on this before me....

[ekhunter]

Sorry!

[KB]

Sorry!

I figured you were typing at the time, this is why I gave you time to correct it.

Ken

[ekhunter]

I figured you were typing at the time, this is why I gave you time to correct it.

Ken

Thanks!

[SportsterRider]

Sportster - do not group all Americans together and do not make this a cultural issue. This isn't a matter by which you can identify yourself as a "cultural American".

Certainly you're entitled to your viewpoint but they do not represent mine or many other Americans.

I don't see how that quote lumps all Americans together. To admit that NA culture DOES have a segment (and a large one at that) that enjoy's hunting, fishing, whatever, is not the same thing as saying ALL Americans feel this way. For the record, I don't hunt. I never developed much of an interest in it, but I can respect the fact that others do. I have friends in Canada and the US that are avid hunters. I also have friends from both countries that have no desire to hunt.

Anyway, hope that clears that up..

SR

[olivia]

Good job, Admin.

[Polynomial]

What's the difference between these 3x items......!

1. Knife

2. Lamp

3. Gun

Answer.....all 3x can be used as weapons.......only 1x is specifically designed as a weapon with the sole purpose of killing.........isolate it from human contact and it's no longer a weapon.....the other two have alternative uses......one can be used to open boxes.....cut yourself free from a seat belt when you're trapped.......or free your self from a bear trap......the second one can be used to provide illumination.....do yourself a favor.....switch yours on......and come out of the darkness....!

Ya not selling knifes and lamps on the board are you?

[Polynomial]

Just STOP right here....This is not a for/against guns threads. Any further discussion about this, and I will close the thread, so please show some respect to the threads topic!

Edit: I see Ken jumped on this before me....

Exactly. What happened has nothing to do with guns, this was a seriously mentaly ill person, he could have run a lorry into a group of school chilldren, blow up a building or set the lecture hall on fire, the availability of guns wouldn't change his medical condition, which was clearly serious.

[Pugwash]

the availability of guns wouldn't change his medical condition

No, it would merely change the body count.

What happened was truly tragic and was only possible at this scale, like all the other school massacres, through the easy access to the tools with which to do it.

I hope something like this never happens again, but I know it will. It may have nothing to do with guns, but when we had our own massacre in the UK, we changed our gun laws and have been lucky not to have had a repeat performance. Coincidence?

[Pugwash]

Sorry for continuing to bring up the gun debate, but to separate this tragic event from the gun debate is impossible. We all know that everyone here is exceedingly sorry for what happened to the victims as it's human, and the way of dealing with it is to discuss it.

[KB]

Undoubtably Puggy but my concern is that the gun debate discussion can and should happen in another thread.

Ken

[Torques]

The African comparison holds no weight here......that's tribal and political genocide.....not the action of an individual......so stop being an ostrich and burying your head in the sand.....!

You're the worst kind of apologist.....you seek to blame the individual.......the truth is guns don't kill people......guns in the hands of people kill people........taking your argument......why should the West condemn Iran for trying to develop nuclear weapons........nuclear weapons DON'T kill people.....it's the despotic idiot who pushes the button that kills the people........yet we seek to stop the despot having the WEAPON.!

And yet you want to defend the argument that YOU have the right to own a weapon......what [censored]ing right.......you don't have the right to the facility to terrorize my family...neighborhood and society......when you find that you can't get over yourself........so get over your self......and go buy a pound of sausages at Tesco.........you're argument is weaker than a weak thing that's had a wash in Weakness liquid and rubbed down with a towel washed in new and improved Weakness powder...!

You sound awfully like one of those white hunters standing foot on neck of YOUR kill.........atavistic behavior that is no longer necessary.......you have the RIGHT to choose where you get your food.....chemically induced at Wal-Mart...or farm grown.....both are available to you......what RIGHT do you have to take the life of another animal.........that represents no threat to you.......I'll tell you.....no [censored]ing right.....!

Here's a little test for you.......I'm sure even you'll get it right......!

What's the difference between these 3x items......!

1. Knife

2. Lamp

3. Gun

Answer.....all 3x can be used as weapons.......only 1x is specifically designed as a weapon with the sole purpose of killing.........isolate it from human contact and it's no longer a weapon.....the other two have alternative uses......one can be used to open boxes.....cut yourself free from a seat belt when you're trapped.......or free your self from a bear trap......the second one can be used to provide illumination.....do yourself a favor.....switch yours on......and come out of the darkness....!

@Sportsrider.....condolences aren't going to bring these kids back........nor is it going to change anyone's outlook........I've listened to people like you as well......"oh this kind of debate does no good"....."we all should just get along".......debate about this kind of thing turns you off......why.....because you have no interest......I don't want to read another post from people like you.......you know .....the ones that bleat....'nothing will change"......'it's all so futile"........you've the same outlook as all those do-gooder trick cyclists that want to examine his motives for doing what he did.......did his mum not let him eat peanut butter sandwiches as a boy....maybe she wouldn't let him wear long trousers till he was 15.....WHO THE [censored] CARES........why are we interested in what his motivation was....it's not acting classes..."I am a tree".........NOBODY should care.......what we should care about is that we don't have another discussion like this again...and we don't see any more situations like this........we can't change the past....but we can sure as [censored] change the future.....!

If just one of those victims had a firearm, they might.... have stopped that guy at the beginning of his rampage. It's crazy. No one has anything to fear from law abiding citizens who carry guns.

[Guest TTK]

No one has anything to fear from law abiding citizens who carry guns.

Oh yeah.....tell that to all the victims of law abiding citizens who were law abiding right up until the point their status changed....!

The VT murderer was a law abiding citizen....only difference was he was a law abiding citizen LEGALLY entitled to hold Weapons of Mass Destruction.....and 32 innocent people witnessed his transmogrification from law abiding citizen.....to mass murderer...!

I really think what you meant to say was......no-one has anything to fear from law abiding citizens who don't carry guns......now I'm not a gambler....but I recognise a sure bet when I see it.......DUH....!

If just one of those victims had a firearm, they might.... have stopped that guy at the beginning of his rampage.

If just NONE of those involved had a WMD they would DEFINITELY have stopped him in his tracks.....before any rampage....DUH.....!

Edited April 18, 2007 by TTK

[dosanim]

Exactly. What happened has nothing to do with guns, this was a seriously mentaly ill person, he could have run a lorry into a group of school chilldren, blow up a building or set the lecture hall on fire, the availability of guns wouldn't change his medical condition, which was clearly serious.

First, my prayer goes out to victims, their families and also family of assailant. As Polynomial put, all previous shooting rampages, Columbine, Amish village etc, were done by disturbed individuals. Oklahoma bombing as well.

If legally buying gun was not possible, do you think assailant would have been given up on this? I do not think so. There would be a good chance that he would acquire illegal gun and ammo anyhow. Many times, issue becomes matter of owning gun or not. To me, evaluating and helping these individuals to prevent this tragedy comes first, though it is not an easy task.

Edited April 18, 2007 by dosanim

[dieselpower]

There are communities in the USA where it is a REQUIREMENT to own a gun to join that community.

Question: Should this stance be adopted throughout the States?

Discuss.

[Torques]

Oh yeah.....tell that to all the victims of law abiding citizens who were law abiding right up until the point their status changed....!

The VT murderer was a law abiding citizen....only difference was he was a law abiding citizen LEGALLY entitled to hold Weapons of Mass Destruction.....and 32 innocent people witnessed his transmogrification from law abiding citizen.....to mass murderer...!

I really think what you meant to say was......no-one has anything to fear from law abiding citizens who don't carry guns......now I'm not a gambler....but I recognise a sure bet when I see it.......DUH....!

If just NONE of those involved had a WMD they would DEFINITELY have stopped him in his tracks.....before any rampage....DUH.....!

You don't "get it". I wish you the best, take care.

[HauteHippie]

Anything else you want to discuss....feel free..!

Here in the US, the same people who think it's impossible to deport 11 million illegal Mexicans think that it's entirely plausible to confiscate 250 million firearms. Even if it were plausible, it won't prevent people apt to comitting heinous crimes from obtaining weapons to do so. No, gun control won't work and wouldn't have worked in this case (guns were already banned on campus as is), however a little psycho control would have gone a long way. Here you had an individual writing disturbingly violent papers and plays for class assignments, stalking multiple women, intimidating students AND teachers, setting fire in a dormitory, and being admitted for psychiatric evaulation. Based on what little we already know, this guy should have been long since prosecuted and expelled. But instead of addressing the facts, so many people want to use this tragedy to demonize guns yet again. The gun grabbers are single minded, waiting for moments like this to make emotional exploitations. And to top it off, what seemingly hasn't been covered are all the bills that went down which would have given these students a fighting chance by allowing them to carry on campus. If a fire had killed this many people because there were no fire extinguishers, that almost certainly would have been reported. Yet here you had a well documented psycho on campus who was brushed under the rug, while at the same time fellow students were denied their right to defend themselves against him. Terrible.

Oh and by the way, I have some advice for non-Americans who think they know best how to run our country. But since this is a family channel, I will decline to share it.

[Admin]

HELLOOOO!!!! No more pro/agains guns I believe I said a couple of posts ago.....

[KB]

I just don't get it all these innocent kids who lost their lives and instead of an outpouring of grief (which one would expect) we have the anti and pro gun lobbies using the thread as a debate table.

I ask you all for the last time to try and focus on the topic of this thread and take your petty squabbles elsewhere!

Ken

[riskman1]

For any of those affected by this tragic situation wether that be through someone close to you or through an aquaintence or even just the sorrow one feels for these young kids my heart goes out to you, thoughts and prayers coming from Australia today.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18134671/?GT1=9246

Ken

Kenberg, thank you for the sentiment. My sister graduated from that school, and it is truly ragic what happened. I didn't get a chance to read all the posts, but i hope people don't start saying, "Gee, if only we had gun control"! We have major gun control, esp. at Va Tech (no guns allowed on campus) and what did it get them?

[woody]

a truly sad week thus far here in the states. Condolences to the deceased, the family members, and the community. I really hope through this painful experience, we can modify the legal system and the mental health system here, so we can avoid tragedies like this from happening in the future.

[olivia]

Her words silenced the room on a topic that silenced the nation. Famous Poet Nikki Giovanni was at the memorial service helping a nation come to grips what the deadliest mass shooting in modern history.

Her presentation of this work cannot be replicated by mere reading...it must be heard...the way she presented it.

"We are Virginia Tech.

We are sad today and we will be sad for quite awhile. WE are not moving on, we are embracing our mourning. We are Virginia Tech.

We are strong enough to know when to cry and sad enough to know we must laugh again.

We are Virginia Tech.

We do not understand this tragedy. We know we did not deserve it but neither does a child in Africa dying of AIDS, but neither do the invisible children walking the night to avoid being captured by a rogue army. Neither does the baby elephant watching his community be devastated for ivory; neither does the Appalachian infant killed in the middle of the night in his crib in the home his father built with his own hands being run over by a boulder because the land was destabilized. No one deserves a tragedy.

We are Virginia Tech.

The Hokie Nation embraces our own with open heart and hands to those who offer their hearts and minds. We are strong and brave and innocent and unafraid. We are better than we think, not quite what we want to be. We are alive to the imagination and the possibility we will continue to invent the future through our blood and tears, through all this sadness. We are the Hokies. We will prevail, we will prevail.

We are Virginia Tech. "

Edited April 23, 2007 by olivia

[yepme]

My heart goes out to the families who lost loved ones in this terrible tragedy. The loss of these young lives and the impact it will have on their families is incalculable.

Lets show respect to the victims and follow Ken's advice and keep the firearms discussion out of this thread. If you have strong enough convictions one way or another ... start a gun control thread, I'd gladly participate.

Live every day as it is your last, hug your loved ones and tell you you love them every day, you never know when it will be your last opportunity to do so.