Tragic news........shooting at Virginia college

[jack]

@jack.....this isn't about agendas......it's about the future of our children.....and what certain self serving people are NOT doing to protect it....!

Anything else you want to discuss....feel free..!

OK maybe tomorrow then. It's late and I'm spent. Goodnight.

[dieselpower]

Everyone who owns a gun should use it once........on themselves.

[Tim]

[censored]...I'm not goin' to waste my time on that old chestnut.....!

As for deer.......haven't you heard of culling by responsible appointed authorities.......no need for anyone to don their checkered shirt and NRA baseball cap and go out to hunt an animal that has every right be in it's environment as you have in yours......that's one of the main reasons we build large conurbations.....besides which in the USA there are more hunters shot by other hunters than deer..... DELIBERATELY......!

The well defended populace was in jest.

But you really don't have any idea how many deer are in the US do you? You ever seen what a deer does to a car? I see it, a lot because there are so many. Since all their natural predators have been removed they breed like hoofed rabbits.

-T

[Guest TTK]

And who removed their natural predators.....besides which ...haven't you heard the conversation betwen 2x deer....!

"Have you any idea how many humans are in the US"...do you..?

"You ever seen what a car does to a deer"....?.....I see it a lot, because there are so many.

They have no natural predators...except themselves.......you ever see them shooting at each other in the woods..during hunting season......[censored]......stay away from the woods......head out on the highway......keep your motor running.....!

[Guest avitt]

What then about the thought that "A Well-armed Populace Is The Best Defense Against Tyranny"?

I live in the US, and I have a far greater fear of some whacked-out neighbor kid with a gun, than I do of tyrannical oppression...

Edited April 17, 2007 by avitt

[dawg]

My heart and prayers go out to the families that lost loved ones today. Lets not forget about that in this debate.

[Torques]

For any of those affected by this tragic situation wether that be through someone close to you or through an aquintence or even just the sorrow one feels for these young kids my heart goes out to you, thoughts and prayers coming from Australia today.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18134671/?GT1=9246

Ken

It's like Iraq practically every day, [censored] happens.

[jonthebhoy]

My point was not to defend gun ownership in this tread as I said I don't own one and never would. My point is that it is wrong attaching an agenda to a tragedy mere hours after it happens.

Agreed but when is it appropriate as it appears there has been no progress since the last tragedy (ies).

Heston's "From my cold dead hand" speech always rattles about in my head at times like these.

Little or nowt will be done.

May they rest in peace.

JTB

[jkerouac]

Gun control is an important issue for discussion, but I do not think it is the key issue here. What strikes me time and again is that we have developed a culture that is largely desensitized to violence, whether through live news, government and other social (religious) leaders who gloss over the impact of their policies on real people, movies, video games, etc.

We read about or see images of people being killed or maimed all the time. But does that really lead to an understanding of what it is like for a soldier on the front lines in Iraq, a woman simply trying to buy groceries to feed her family there or in Africa or elsewhere, or a student preparing for finals who suddenly is faced with death or severe injury to him or herself or to teachers and classmates?

The stories of maimed soldiers trying to rebuild their lives in army hospitals that are falling apart and run by the worst sort of bureaucrats, or children suddenly without limbs or eyes, those are images we should come to terms with rather than glossing over the body count in the latest video game or action movie (our hero James Bond included).

Until we come to terms with those issues, until society really feels and comes to terms with its own worst impulses and potential for inflicting pain and misery, then gun control remains a moot point.

[swdivad]

What a sad day it is for sure when these things happen.

The aliens are shaking their heads in disgust.

[jraines87]

Good Memory Olivia....

Yea a sad day indeed. I just got back from blacksburg last night. I wasn't at the college, but was close by.

[ekhunter]

what's the old saw? Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

What a load of horsesh*t.

People with guns kill people!!!

In some places in Africa, it's People with Machetes that kill People. Lots of people. Pick your weapon of choice. Killers will find a way to kill you. It's easy to blame the gun, but how about the [censored] that actually pulled the trigger. I've always felt that even though this is the "Off Topic" forum, that stuff like this only divides people on the forum. Just MHO.

[ekhunter]

The common factor in all of these incidents has nothing to do with anything other than the fact that people have access to guns......Virginia / Pennsylvania / Columbine / Dunblane / Texas....would never have taken place if these people had no access to guns.....maybe they would have resorted to knives / axe / baseball bat....none of which would have the same potential for extreme loss of life........this is not about the past....it's not about the present......it's about the future.....it's about not having this converstaion again.....and the only way that can be achieved is by taking the 'tool' of choice away from those who seek to inflict damage on society.....vexing their own frustations on others......!

A gun is nothing more nor less than a weapon....unlike a knife which can perform multiple tasks as a tool for the average person.....a gun has only one purpose.....to kill........why put that in the hands of an irresponsible public.....!

People will always kill other people......what is needed is damage limitation.......you cannot present a logical argument for the posession of a firearm........you don't need a gun for hunting....not when you can buy your steak at Wal-Mart.......you don't need it to repel foreign invaders....that's why you have an army......you don't need to protect your self......that's why you have a police force.....remember.....'to protect and serve'.......if you feel the need to have a gun for self protection......then your Government and local police force is failing you.....!

Where ever you live must be a great place. Where is it, Fantasy Island? Where were the police after a tragedy like Katrina? I'll tell you where, GONE!!!!!!! So now you are saying that the right that I have to kill my own food, rather than go to buy chemically injected food from Wal-Mart should be denied? Give me a break! What happened at VT was tragic, but you shouldn't be blaming the gun, instead, how about the jerk who decided to do this.

[SportsterRider]

In some places in Africa, it's People with Machetes that kill People. Lots of people. Pick your weapon of choice. Killers will find a way to kill you. It's easy to blame the gun, but how about the [censored] that actually pulled the trigger. I've always felt that even though this is the "Off Topic" forum, that stuff like this only divides people on the forum. Just MHO.

+1

I've been biting my tongue throughout this thread when the anti-gun proponents start spouting off. I've been a part of, and watched, discussions like this on other boards I frequent (Auto's, Motorcycles, etc..) and it never ends well. You will NOT sway a pro-gun advocate over to an anti-gun view, 'nor will you make an anti-gun proponent decide to join the NRA.

While I appreciate the idea behind an Off Topic sub, I've never seen a topic like this be of any value to any of the boards I'm on short of the political ones. Bikes, cars, sports and - Replica Watch discussions, are not served by this kind of debate. Frankly, I'm not interested in what any of you think about gun ownership and I'd rather not become hostile towards anyone here over that particular topic.

This thread was originally intended to express condolences to those who lost loved ones at VT. If anyone wants to discuss the merits of America's gun laws, why don't you start a new topic? That way, I can be sure to ignore it in full ernest...

SR

[Guest TTK]

In some places in Africa, it's People with Machetes that kill People. Lots of people. Pick your weapon of choice. Killers will find a way to kill you. It's easy to blame the gun, but how about the [censored] that actually pulled the trigger. I've always felt that even though this is the "Off Topic" forum, that stuff like this only divides people on the forum. Just MHO.

The African comparison holds no weight here......that's tribal and political genocide.....not the action of an individual......so stop being an ostrich and burying your head in the sand.....!

You're the worst kind of apologist.....you seek to blame the individual.......the truth is guns don't kill people......guns in the hands of people kill people........taking your argument......why should the West condemn Iran for trying to develop nuclear weapons........nuclear weapons DON'T kill people.....it's the despotic idiot who pushes the button that kills the people........yet we seek to stop the despot having the WEAPON.!

And yet you want to defend the argument that YOU have the right to own a weapon......what [censored]ing right.......you don't have the right to the facility to terrorize my family...neighborhood and society......when you find that you can't get over yourself........so get over your self......and go buy a pound of sausages at Tesco.........you're argument is weaker than a weak thing that's had a wash in Weakness liquid and rubbed down with a towel washed in new and improved Weakness powder...!

You sound awfully like one of those white hunters standing foot on neck of YOUR kill.........atavistic behavior that is no longer necessary.......you have the RIGHT to choose where you get your food.....chemically induced at Wal-Mart...or farm grown.....both are available to you......what RIGHT do you have to take the life of another animal.........that represents no threat to you.......I'll tell you.....no [censored]ing right.....!

Here's a little test for you.......I'm sure even you'll get it right......!

What's the difference between these 3x items......!

1. Knife

2. Lamp

3. Gun

Answer.....all 3x can be used as weapons.......only 1x is specifically designed as a weapon with the sole purpose of killing.........isolate it from human contact and it's no longer a weapon.....the other two have alternative uses......one can be used to open boxes.....cut yourself free from a seat belt when you're trapped.......or free your self from a bear trap......the second one can be used to provide illumination.....do yourself a favor.....switch yours on......and come out of the darkness....!

@Sportsrider.....condolences aren't going to bring these kids back........nor is it going to change anyone's outlook........I've listened to people like you as well......"oh this kind of debate does no good"....."we all should just get along".......debate about this kind of thing turns you off......why.....because you have no interest......I don't want to read another post from people like you.......you know .....the ones that bleat....'nothing will change"......'it's all so futile"........you've the same outlook as all those do-gooder trick cyclists that want to examine his motives for doing what he did.......did his mum not let him eat peanut butter sandwiches as a boy....maybe she wouldn't let him wear long trousers till he was 15.....WHO THE [censored] CARES........why are we interested in what his motivation was....it's not acting classes..."I am a tree".........NOBODY should care.......what we should care about is that we don't have another discussion like this again...and we don't see any more situations like this........we can't change the past....but we can sure as [censored] change the future.....!

Edited April 17, 2007 by TTK

[Steve G]

got a gun, fact i got two

that's ok man, cuz i love god

glorified version of a pellet gun

feels so manly, when armed

everytime some jerk off snaps and snuffs out the life of innocent people i always think of the above lyric's from pearl jam's song.

everytime some sick person needs to behave in the most irrepsonsible way with complete disregard for human life I cannot help but feel empathy

my heart goes out to the family's and friends of the lives lost yesterday...my heart grows sadder as another statistic is added to my country's liberal gun policy.

At least the shooter had the sense to point the gun at himself in the end....

[ekhunter]

+1

I've been biting my tongue throughout this thread when the anti-gun proponents start spouting off. I've been a part of, and watched, discussions like this on other boards I frequent (Auto's, Motorcycles, etc..) and it never ends well. You will NOT sway a pro-gun advocate over to an anti-gun view, 'nor will you make an anti-gun proponent decide to join the NRA.

While I appreciate the idea behind an Off Topic sub, I've never seen a topic like this be of any value to any of the boards I'm on short of the political ones. Bikes, cars, sports and - Replica Watch discussions, are not served by this kind of debate. Frankly, I'm not interested in what any of you think about gun ownership and I'd rather not become hostile towards anyone here over that particular topic.

This thread was originally intended to express condolences to those who lost loved ones at VT. If anyone wants to discuss the merits of America's gun laws, why don't you start a new topic? That way, I can be sure to ignore it in full ernest...

SR

You are correct. This is a terrible tragedy. Let's not forget that!!!!!!! The gun control isssue pushes peoples buttons on both sides of the issue and should be discussed elsewhere.. I knew that someone was going to spout off about 'gun control' and the thread would deteriate. We had this discussion(gun control) about a year ago in another thread when someone took a picture of a Replica watch next to a handgun, and it went south real fast. People got mad, feelings were hurt, so on. It was a tragedy what happened at VT. I pray for the families of those that lost loved ones at Virginia Tech. If someone wants to start another thread, then by all means do so. I would prefer to keep religion and politics out of any discussion on this forum because it usually leads to nothing good, just MHO!!!

[ekhunter]

The African comparison holds no weight here......that's tribal and political genocide.....not the action of an individual......so stop being an ostrich and burying your head in the sand.....!

You're the worst kind of apologist.....you seek to blame the individual.......the truth is guns don't kill people......guns in the hands of people kill people........taking your argument......why should the West condemn Iran for trying to develop nuclear weapons........nuclear weapons DON'T kill people.....it's the despotic idiot who pushes the button that kills the people........yet we seek to stop the despot having the WEAPON.!

And yet you want to defend the argument that YOU have the right to own a weapon......what [censored]ing right.......you don't have the right to the facility to terrorize my family...neighborhood and society......when you find that you can't get over yourself........so get over your self......and go buy a pound of sausages at Tesco.........you're argument is weaker than a weak thing that's had a wash in Weakness liquid and rubbed down with a towel washed in new and improved Weakness powder...!

You sound awfully like one of those white hunters standing foot on neck of YOUR kill.........atavistic behavior that is no longer necessary.......you have the RIGHT to choose where you get your food.....chemically induced at Wal-Mart...or farm grown.....both are available to you......what RIGHT do you have to take the life of another animal.........that represents no threat to you.......I'll tell you.....no [censored]ing right.....!

Here's a little test for you.......I'm sure even you'll get it right......!

What's the difference between these 3x items......!

1. Knife

2. Lamp

3. Gun

Answer.....all 3x can be used as weapons.......only 1x is specifically designed as a weapon with the sole purpose of killing.........isolate it from human contact and it's no longer a weapon.....the other two have alternative uses......one can be used to open boxes.....cut yourself free from a seat belt when you're trapped.......or free your self from a bear trap......the second one can be used to provide illumination.....do yourself a favor.....switch yours on......and come out of the darkness....!

@Sportsrider.....condolences aren't going to bring these kids back........nor is it going to change anyone's outlook........I've listened to people like you as well......"oh this kind of debate does no good"....."we all should just get along".......debate about this kind of thing turns you off......why.....because you have no interest......I don't want to read another post from people like you.......you know .....the ones that bleat....'nothing will change"......'it's all so futile"........you've the same outlook as all those do-gooder trick cyclists that want to examine his motives for doing what he did.......did his mum not let him eat peanut butter sandwiches as a boy....maybe she wouldn't let him wear long trousers till he was 15.....WHO THE [censored] CARES........why are we interested in what his motivation was....it's not acting classes..."I am a tree".........NOBODY should care.......what we should care about is that we don't have another discussion like this again...and we don't see any more situations like this........we can't change the past....but we can sure as [censored] change the future.....!

You appear to be getting very emotional in your words. It's idiots like you that truly believe in Utopia. I wish that was possible, but dream on. Their will always be bad people out there, they will find weapons of some kind, and they will kill. So you need to come back to reality. The world is not a friendly place. Do you actually want Iran to develop a Nuclear weapon with the sole intention of wiping Isreal off of the map. Think Man! You need to quit listening to '"We are the World' and get a clue. I guess you feel you can bully someone and quiten their voice by insulting them with your long vented threads.. Not going to happen. I've always liked reading your post, but you need to get a grip on yourself! I'm not going to apologize to you or anyone else for liking to kill my own food, or wanting to protect my family from criminals. The answer is yes from your earlier thread. The police and government has failed us to some degree. You must be a real animal lover. Maybe you should go try to hug a grizzly bear!!!!!!

[SportsterRider]

**Snip a lot of nonsensical blathering**

@Sportsrider.....condolences aren't going to bring these kids back

No [censored] sherlock. Neither is spewing misinformed [censored] in an attempt to express your dislike for guns.

........nor is it going to change anyone's outlook........I've listened to people like you as well......"oh this kind of debate does no good"....."we all should just get along".......debate about this kind of thing turns you off......why.....because you have no interest......

Oh, I have an interest alright. I just choose to express it properly and in the correct context (and with proper grammatical form as well. WTF is with all the ........ between........ thoughts........ TTK?)

I don't want to read another post from people like you.......you know .....the ones that bleat....'nothing will change"......'it's all so futile"........

You don't know me pal, so you might want to shut your pie-hole and pay attention before dumping your illiterate garbage here. And feel free to ignore anything I say. I'm quite sure I won't lose any sleep over it.

you've the same outlook as all those do-gooder trick cyclists that want to examine his motives for doing what he did.......did his mum not let him eat peanut butter sandwiches as a boy....maybe she wouldn't let him wear long trousers till he was 15.....WHO THE [censored] CARES........why are we interested in what his motivation was....it's not acting classes..."I am a tree".........NOBODY should care.......what we should care about is that we don't have another discussion like this again...and we don't see any more situations like this........we can't change the past....but we can sure as [censored] change the future.....!

Can you be any more myopic? The discussion of the person who did this is at the very HEART of the matter, you tool. But I guess that escapes you, eh? Maybe it would be easier to throw out some more [censored] statistics like "Hunters kill more hunters than deer in the US".

You want to change the future, eh? Well here is a little tip for you that most of us already know - change happens with PEOPLE, not objects like guns, nukes, knives OR lamps. As long as people are [censored]ed up and are willing to kill for whatever they believe in, people will kill people. Sure, if there were no guns in the world, maybe only 15 people would have died at VT. I guess that makes it okay then, since it wasn't done with a gun and it wasn't 33, right? Gimme a [censored]ing break. If outlawing gun ownership were the answer, then how is it that the UK still deals with gun crimes? Handguns are illegal in Chicago, but guess what? Ya, you guessed it.

In a perfect world, we'd have no 'weapons of mass destruction'. But guess what toto, we do. That's not going to change. So maybe focus on changing the 'animal' that uses that weapon. Think that might help?

[cool-arrow]

The common factor in all of these incidents has nothing to do with anything other than the fact that people have access to guns......Virginia / Pennsylvania / Columbine / Dunblane / Texas....would never have taken place if these people had no access to guns.....maybe they would have resorted to knives / axe / baseball bat....none of which would have the same potential for extreme loss of life........this is not about the past....it's not about the present......it's about the future.....it's about not having this converstaion again.....and the only way that can be achieved is by taking the 'tool' of choice away from those who seek to inflict damage on society.....vexing their own frustations on others......!

A gun is nothing more nor less than a weapon....unlike a knife which can perform multiple tasks as a tool for the average person.....a gun has only one purpose.....to kill........why put that in the hands of an irresponsible public.....!

People will always kill other people......what is needed is damage limitation.......you cannot present a logical argument for the posession of a firearm........you don't need a gun for hunting....not when you can buy your steak at Wal-Mart.......you don't need it to repel foreign invaders....that's why you have an army......you don't need to protect your self......that's why you have a police force.....remember.....'to protect and serve'.......if you feel the need to have a gun for self protection......then your Government and local police force is failing you.....!

Well put, I live in the UK but I am from the US, I feel alot safer knowing that someone cannot do a drive by on me. A good scrap here gives me a better chance against a gun outside the club.

[Pugwash]

If outlawing gun ownership were the answer, then how is it that the UK still deals with gun crimes?

Robbing a granny with a plastic gun counts as gun crime.

2005-6 England and Wales firearm homicides: 50

2005-6 Scotland firearm homicides: 8

Seriously, this isn't a problem on the same level as the US.

[cool-arrow]

Not having guns is a very Taboo statement to Americans, I mean hell it is in are constitution. It would cut down on gun related deaths accidental or criminal. Then you have to look at other violent crimes that would go up. Look at the London subway attacks from explosives and home grown terrorist as they call them. The Gatwick incident with British nationals born and raised in England. From personal experience I grew up in L.A. and I fell much safer in the UK walking at night then I could ever in the US. I am not scared of being shot in a drive by or being hit by a stray bullet. There are many violent crimes in England like getting glassed, beaten to death, or stabbed, but at least you have a fighting chance to defend yourself. In the US you could be parked at a stop light and someone drives up and shoots you for no reason in the world. It has happened to many people I know. I don

[SportsterRider]

Robbing a granny with a plastic gun counts as gun crime.

2005-6 England and Wales firearm homicides: 50

2005-6 Scotland firearm homicides: 8

Seriously, this isn't a problem on the same level as the US.

I wouldn't expect it to be, considering that the New York metro area alone could account for almost half of the population of England/Wales in it's entirety. But looking over the report at http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs07/hosb0207.pdf, it's clear that crimes relating to guns DO happen in the UK, despite the disarming of that populace years ago. This also doesn't study whether or not deaths/crimes, as a whole, dropped, stayed the same or increased as a result of that disarming.

The bottom line is, simply outlawing gun ownership to law abiding citizens will not solve crime, whether it's homicides, thefts, rapes, whatever. And whining about the rights of deer to exist the same way I do is one of the most retarded strawman arguments I've ever read for the pro-gun control group, by TTK. Also, to dismiss the rights of folks in this country to hunt, at TTK did, is also demonstrating a serious lack of understanding of the cultural differences between the EU, Asia, etc and NA. It's simply not apples to apples.

SR

[shultzie]

. Also, to dismiss the rights of folks in this country to hunt, at TTK did, is also demonstrating a serious lack of understanding of the cultural differences between the EU, Asia, etc and NA. It's simply not apples to apples.

Sportster - do not group all Americans together and do not make this a cultural issue. This isn't a matter by which you can identify yourself as a "cultural American".

Certainly you're entitled to your viewpoint but they do not represent mine or many other Americans.

[Pugwash]

I wouldn't expect it to be, considering that the New York metro area alone could account for almost half of the population of England/Wales in it's entirety.

New York: 19 million

UK: 60 million

I'll get back to the rest in a while, but I need to carry on unpacking.