Apprentices asking for opinions and tips but saving 30$!

[TeeJay]

That doesn't make any sense. The forum helps to protect buyers from out-and-out scam artists, you can't do that and have a free for all. There is a free for all for rep watches - it's called Google.

I don't think you can have it both ways either. It's your prerogative not to pay, but you can't not pay and get humpty with the folk that pay for it all too.

There have been many recruitment drives before, to remind folk that it costs money to run the joint. Nothing wrong with Stephane's post in my eyes.

And what about the less 'out and out' scam artists like Andrew and Joshua, who have been proven to be liars and manipulators on numerous occasions, yet still spoken of like 'Watch Royalty'? What about the people who might think that they can be trusted at their word, buy from them, and wind up getting a smashed watch in the post? Or a watch which they paid for to be waterproofed but leakes like a seive when pressure-tested? Not everyone who posts here will know about those problems, and all the time people gloss over them, n00bs will be more inclined to trust the happy majority, only to wind up getting their pants pulled down, metaphorically speaking, as has happened to me in my recent deal with Silix.

As a forum, this place is excellent, and certainly way better than another forum of similar initials, but, I really feel that 'dealer review' sections should be open to all, and there should be no presense of any collectors here at all. If someone wants to know where someone bought a watch from, they can always PM someone. I've had people do that with me, and am more than willing to pass on the name of the respective dealer. That way, it keeps popularity and 'cult of personality' out of the mix.

I'm not getting humpty with the folk who pay for it, I'm getting humpty with the attitude that "Just because I pay for it, everyone else should too", as pointed out by others, it is simply distasteful, and not Stephane' place to make such requests in the first place. While I would accept that it is no doubt harmless over-enthusiasm, it must be remembered that others can perceive it as tasteless heckling...

[Pix]

Sure, my 'other dealer' watches might not be running, but that's because I killed them with my tinkering, 'out of the box', they were fine...

I would love to know who's the next dealer I will rely on... If you don't mind, I'd expect some names by PM. Thx

BTW, I often get PM about who or where, and always answer by return. I may think that if I would not name the dealers in my posts, I would get much more, and I may not answer everyone, for time reasons. Not mentionning the people asking things by PM, and forgetting a thank you or something that sounds like "your answer was useful". That's why I have a preference on "public" discussions over private ones.

BTW, isn't the Dealer's review section visible by all ? I can't confirm that, since I've been a *cough* VIP for some time already.

Steppen, you disagree with Stephane's way of doing, I respect that, but I learnt that when it comes to judging someone namingly, it always turns into a fiasco. I would avoid continuing posting testimonials about who did what, in all honesty. Hopefully the thread will remain gentle.

[TeeJay]

I would love to know who's the next dealer I will rely on... If you don't mind, I'd expect some names by PM. Thx

BTW, I often get PM about who or where, and always answer by return. I may think that if I would not name the dealers in my posts, I would get much more, and I may not answer everyone, for time reasons. Not mentionning the people asking things by PM, and forgetting a thank you or something that sounds like "your answer was useful". That's why I have a preference on "public" discussions over private ones.

BTW, isn't the Dealer's review section visible by all ? I can't confirm that, since I've been a *cough* VIP for some time already.

Steppen, you disagree with Stephane's way of doing, I respect that, but I learnt that when it comes to judging someone namingly, it always turns into a fiasco. I would avoid continuing posting testimonials about who did what, in all honesty. Hopefully the thread will remain gentle.

PM sent RE dealers, and no, the dealer's review section is not visible to all, but a protected forum... :smile:

[steppen]

Steppen, you disagree with Stephane's way of doing, I respect that, but I learnt that when it comes to judging someone namingly, it always turns into a fiasco. I would avoid continuing posting testimonials about who did what, in all honesty. Hopefully the thread will remain gentle.

To be honest I dont really get what you're trying to say there Pix,

its nice that you would avoid posting your disagreement with a fellow member, but when i disagree with someone's methods I speak up, if you like to avoid problems thats your prerogative not mine,

I dont see how the thread will remain gentle when the initial post was 'heckilng for money' as TeeJay aptly put it.

As I have already said this is not the first time, indeed a cursory search brings the following results:

Example 1

Example 2

Example 3

Example 4

Edited July 1, 2007 by steppen

[Pix]

Steppen, I'm stopping here, that's exactly what I can't stand : moving the things to a personal vendetta against an other member...

Nothing personal against you, just against the way you do.

:close_tema:

[b16a2]

In a way though some of those posts are noobs asking for 'collectors'. However these areas ar eonly available to VIP membership. So in suggesting to get a VIP upgrade, it is actually giving them advice on how to get to the collectors area.

If we were to simplygive a link, then surely that defeats the purpose of having the VIP area, which is a factor in the protection of this website becoming to avaialble to people who could damage our hobby?

[steppen]

In a way though some of those posts are noobs asking for 'collectors'.

Yes and more than some of them are telling new members (quote) 'It's time' (/quote) to upgrade,

It's all how you look at it, this is the way it appears to me, as I've said before, I dont believe that there is anything sinister behind it, just a case of misplaced enthusiasm.

[Stephane]

Ok.

Some of you are right.

I am a very bad guy.

That's it.

I am right too: some of you are greedy.

I should never have post this thread.

My intentions were positive.

Some of you are only flaming, which is not positive at all.

Oh, and sorry, english is not my mother tongue.

Cheers

Stephane

[geo1nah2a]

/snip

But, of course, if some guys prefer to save 30$, that's fine. Every opinion is repectable.

In this case they should not be allowed to sniff all the valuable informations from here after a certain "free trial period".

/snip

Stephane I understand that you mean well, and that you are not making it for your or anybody's profit.

But..

Some people contribute with work(admins-mods), others with money, other people contribute with opinions and reviews, and others (majority) contribute by reading the forum, thus creating the critical mass that maintains our community running. Or with a combination of all the above. Still, all are needed in our current orchestration.

If what you said in the quote was the Admin's opinion, then some people will pay and stay, but others might just chose to leave regardless of the trial period duration. This has NOTHING to do with money (at least to some of us). What do you think will happen if Linux went to a subscription-base? What would the contributors feel like?

This is a community, based on roles, and if we were going through a critical phase, then more people than you think will step up and contribute. If the admin's decide to ring the alarm, you might be surprised. The model is currently working, so, I see no reason to change something. I put my trust in the admins, and if they need something, they just have to come out and say it.

On the other hand, the VIP section and the 'privileges' that come out of it, as it currently operates, is providing a level of protection and there is no need for it to change.We both understand why we don't want any search engine or nosy guy have access to PP, emails, sites etc of our collectors.

FR

George

[Stephane]

Stephane I understand that you mean well, and that you are not making it for your or anybody's profit.

George

Well, George, this is exactly what I feel and I thank you for wording my feeling as I wasn't able to do so myself.

I was only trying to help the community.

Profits? My profit? Admin profit?

No, it's all about a community profit, for sure.

It's not my place, and, allthough it has been stated, I never though RWG was "my" place.

It's probably an excess of enthusiasm that pushed me to post this thread.

Looking at what this place brought to myself and many other newbies like me, I would love to give some more contribution.

The only way I can contribute is spend some hours to post pictorials of my deals and send some $$ when asked for (even if it is few $$, I fell like helping).

But, when I read some people posts, putting so much energy in finding my posts where I say "Isn't time..." it make it obvious to me that there are two categories of humans:

The ones that give, the one that take.

Warm regards to the ones that give,

Stephane

[Stephane]

To be honest I dont really get what you're trying to say there Pix,

its nice that you would avoid posting your disagreement with a fellow member, but when i disagree with someone's methods I speak up, if you like to avoid problems thats your prerogative not mine,

I dont see how the thread will remain gentle when the initial post was 'heckilng for money' as TeeJay aptly put it.

As I have already said this is not the first time, indeed a cursory search brings the following results:

Example 1

Example 2

Example 3

Example 4

My god, you must have spend hours to trace these posts...

How comes ?

Are you a fan ?

Do you hate me for some reason ?

Do we know each other ?

If not, let's have a drink man.

Maybe your not that bad after all...and me neither.

Cheers

Stephane

[Stephane]

@b16a2 and Pix.

Thanks guys.

@Steppen and TeeJay: you seem to have a personal problem with me

I wonder what it is though.

Cheers

Stephane

[crystalcranium]

People should contribute $5 a month to this forum to keep the lights on....no other motivations necessary.

When we can't pay for server access.....all of these "deeply held conviction" rationalizations for not "contributing to a forum that tolerates this and that" go out the window.

Paying your taxes in a democratic society gives you the freedom to debate the pros and cons. Not paying because you don't like some aspect of the debate lands you in trouble.

Letting others pay to keep the lights on while one runs around the house eating the food and sleeping in the bed....while rationalizing "hey...I contribute a lot around here too"... sounds very familliarily adolescent.

[ubiquitous]

Hey gang...

I don't think Stephane means any harm... He simply has good intentions for the forum's well being (the financial aspect of running a website, server, colo space, bandwidth, etc. while keeping things safe for all of us is, I'm sure not exactly cheap).

I do agree that if the forum has benefitted an individual in some way, shape or form, that he or she should at least consider the idea of making a contribution. Is it mandatory? Of course not... And people are free to do with their money as they see fit. But... I do know that a lot of the financial responsibility falls on admin' shoulders; the least we can do is help him a little along the way. He's been very good to us... He's helped us build a new home after the old RWG fell apart... And, he has done a great job in making sure the ship has stayed afloat thus far. Surely, that is worth giving a little back to a very generous individual who has provided us with this great forum of which our community is built upon.

Just my $0.02

[TeeJay]

People should contribute $5 a month to this forum to keep the lights on....no other motivations necessary.

When we can't pay for server access.....all of these "deeply held conviction" rationalizations for not "contributing to a forum that tolerates this and that" go out the window.

Paying your taxes in a democratic society gives you the freedom to debate the pros and cons. Not paying because you don't like some aspect of the debate lands you in trouble.

Letting others pay to keep the lights on while one runs around the house eating the food and sleeping in the bed....while rationalizing "hey...I contribute a lot around here too"... sounds very familliarily adolescent.

Why should people contribute $5 a month? Expecting other people to pay a subscription simply because you do, and morally browbeating others into doing likewise is not eactly mature behaviour. The fact is, this is not a subscription only, so it is not a case of 'paying taxes', but a case of making a coluntary contribution in exchange for certain privelages. I find it interesting that Admin is not the one making demands for money, but others who are expecting people to make the same contributions that they choose to make. I think this post makes that point perfectly

I do agree that if the forum has benefitted an individual in some way, shape or form, that he or she should at least consider the idea of making a contribution. Is it mandatory? Of course not... And people are free to do with their money as they see fit.

As long as this remains a non-subscription forum, then no-one should be heckled, browbeaten or otherwise made to feel guilty about not wanting to make a voluntary donation, especially if they have concerns about the way the forum is handled.

I'll leave it at that before I say anything I'll regret.

[Stephane]

@TeeJay:

What is it you would regret ?

Not financialy contributing ?

[ubiquitous]

As long as this remains a non-subscription forum, then no-one should be heckled, browbeaten or otherwise made to feel guilty about not wanting to make a voluntary donation, especially if they have concerns about the way the forum is handled.

I don't see where I'm browbeating, heckling, or guilting anyone into paying anything. All I'm saying is that if RWG's been good to you, to just consider the notion of helping out.

P.S. If you have issues with the way the forum is handled, then why are you here?

[TwoTone]

As long as this remains a non-subscription forum, then no-one should be heckled, browbeaten or otherwise made to feel guilty about not wanting to make a voluntary donation, especially if they have concerns about the way the forum is handled.

I'll leave it at that before I say anything I'll regret.

Like my signature says - "Where People Gather, Life Happens"

The World is full of Takers & Givers...

Nice to know where you stand TeeJay...

Likewise, nice to know where Ubi stands...

I'm glad some of our Collectors take note of these Threads...

TT

[Stephane]

Ok, so this becomes interresting indeed.

Givers / Takers.

[TeeJay]

@TeeJay:

What is it you would regret ?

Not financialy contributing ?

I was meaning that I have expressed my opinions on why I personally choose not to make a financial contribution to the forum, but instead, try and make as many contributions to the community as a whole, as possible, and I would prefer people to respect that opinion, even if they do not agree with it, and not try and change my mind. Afterall, I am not trying to change anyone's opinion about their subscriptions, I am simply explaining my own personal feelings, and I would rather leave the discussion at that point rather than continue and possibly lose my temper.

I don't see where I'm browbeating, heckling, or guilting anyone into paying anything. All I'm saying is that if RWG's been good to you, to just consider the notion of helping out.

P.S. If you have issues with the way the forum is handled, then why are you here?

I didn't feel you were heckling or browbeating at all, that was CrystalCranium. I illustrated your post as it was an excellent phrasing that it should be an entirely voluntary contribution.

Like my signature says - "Where People Gather, Life Happens"

The World is full of Takers & Givers...

Nice to know where you stand TeeJay...

Likewise, nice to know where Ubi stands...

I'm glad some of our Collectors take note of these Threads...

TT

Where I 'stand', is I give to the community through non-financial contributions. When the month's free VIP passes were given out, the only thing I actually gained, was the ability to edit my posts. I don't recall seeing any spectacularly interesting posts in the VIP Forum which were not repeated in the main forum, and as my recent deal with Silix has shown, I certainly gained no insightfull knowledge other than again, what was already posted in the main forum. As for the 'collectors', how is allowing them to 'set up shop' on the forums, which are supposed to be purely educational, in any way fair? All my best deals have been done through 'non forum' dealers, so forgive me if I am more than a tad scheptical about certain motives.

As I said, I will leave the debate here, before I say something I would later regret, but people are more than welcome to PM me if they wish.

[b16a2]

I feel there is too much based on the argument that they feel it is not justified to pay an amount for access to an area that they may not need, or due to the collectors that who are in those sections not being to the requirements or satisfaction they require. I for one don't use the VIP section all that much, I hardly ever purchase reps now, but being a part of this forum, and being involved in watches is a big part of my life now. For the sake of $30, it's not alot.

I think Stephane's post has been taken rather differently form how he wished it to be taken. I think long term members should consider upgrading, because admin, who I can imagine stump a large part of the costs personally, could quite easily say, no, we've had enough, and pull the plug. The privilege for me is to be here now, typing, not to gain access to the collectors section.

Teejay, I absolutely understand where you are coming from, it is something that should not be preached. I enjoy your posts. You have been part of this forum for a fair amount of time now, if you genuinely dislike the fact that some collectors here are in your opinion not worthy of their status, that to me is fine, I am sure you can justify that, some of it would not take much! So that leads me to conclude that the reason you are here is because you have a good time, as so am I. You probably learn alot, and you also offer alot to the forum. Therefore, for the sake of $30 a year, isn't it a small price to pay in order to help for the maintenance of not only the forum, but your hobby? However, of course you do not have to pay to be here, as you are now.

I do not look at peoples membership status and make any judgements. The way I see the subscription fee personally, is that it is not what I gain from it in access, it is what I gain from it in continuity of the board itself.

Best Wishes

[scooter]

LOL, not to be too much off topic... but, any word when us that want to donate will be able to? Kind of a moot point if you cannot donate

[Stephane]

I do not look at peoples membership status and make any judgements. The way I see the subscription fee personally, is that it is not what I gain from it in access, it is what I gain from it in continuity of the board itself.

Best Wishes

So true.

[TeeJay]

I feel there is too much based on the argument that they feel it is not justified to pay an amount for access to an area that they may not need, or due to the collectors that who are in those sections not being to the requirements or satisfaction they require. I for one don't use the VIP section all that much, I hardly ever purchase reps now, but being a part of this forum, and being involved in watches is a big part of my life now. For the sake of $30, it's not alot.

I think Stephane's post has been taken rather differently form how he wished it to be taken. I think long term members should consider upgrading, because admin, who I can imagine stump a large part of the costs personally, could quite easily say, no, we've had enough, and pull the plug. The privilege for me is to be here now, typing, not to gain access to the collectors section.

Teejay, I absolutely understand where you are coming from, it is something that should not be preached. I enjoy your posts. You have been part of this forum for a fair amount of time now, if you genuinely dislike the fact that some collectors here are in your opinion not worthy of their status, that to me is fine, I am sure you can justify that, some of it would not take much! So that leads me to conclude that the reason you are here is because you have a good time, as so am I. You probably learn alot, and you also offer alot to the forum. Therefore, for the sake of $30 a year, isn't it a small price to pay in order to help for the maintenance of not only the forum, but your hobby? However, of course you do not have to pay to be here, as you are now.

I do not look at peoples membership status and make any judgements. The way I see the subscription fee personally, is that it is not what I gain from it in access, it is what I gain from it in continuity of the board itself.

Best Wishes

Oh I agree entirely, Stepane's post was most definitely taken the wrong way, I was simply pointing out my own reasons for why I choose not to subscribe, and how others could find the 'encouragement' to subscribe as distasteful.

With the issue of my own subscription, again, I agree entirely, it is a small price to pay, but, I am simply not prepared to pay for the Cartel to have a 'captive audience', for want of a better term, or to assist in them having a place here. Yes, some dealers are good, others have been proven to be less than scrupulous. I guess my point, is at the end of the day, there need not even be a collector's section, and I feel the reviews should be open to all, particularly as the new comers are the ones who would benefit the most from them, and also the ones who would find a subscription fee more offputting. I guess I just find it ironic that CQout is really only spoken of with distain here, yet all my best deals have been via that website.

Indeed, best wishes to all.

[crystalcranium]

TJ...lay off the crack...it doesnt do you any good

As you demonstrated in the LWL thread...you have no boundries arguing your point to death when something gets under your skin. There is a psychological term for the pathologically argumentative but I'll use the lay mans term of "last word freak". You sure as hell smell putridly of paranoid delusions accusing well seasoned and balanced members of attacks and your points of argument, like an excellent delusional person, are so off the main topic and so run on "ok ...bring it on...I'll argue the next point to death" that you are making a first class fool of yourself. OK...you proudly proclaim you never intend to pay for a subscription here...great...I hope TT...one of the unbiased, nonjudgemental moderators here..is right and the community of "collectors" take note of your juvenile attitude. The fact that you post rationally 90% of the time and the other 10% you show up like Mike Tyson ready to bite off an ear demonstrates something is seriously wrong with you.

Now bring it on...quote me...argue it to death...pull apart what I said sentence by sentence...refute every point....light up another pipe....and demonstrate to the community what an a-hole you are.