Thoughts about legal or illegal,and marketing possibilities

[wjlamp]

Hi,

I read various quotes about the hobby.Mainly, about being legal ,illegal or simply indifferent,the collecting buying or selling replica watches.

From the user's(buyer's)point of view,I can see nothing illegal,or damaging to the name of a firm.One buys an item

with full knowledge (pricewise,placewise)that it is a replica.It is not the same.That does it. Why do you think

replicas are 99.999 accurate to the original? Is it difficult for a producer to make it ,like it is?

Do not think so. The laws are clear.Only an 100 percent identical item falls into the letter of the law.

And this act, is a wholly different thing.

From the makers point of view,its a little bit different. Lets say for example Panerai..

They are manufacturing watches,and their selling target is a group of people with an "x" level of income and buying habits.

They are aware of the marketing potential of their products,and their aim is to attract,a portion of the market pie to them.

How many can fork out, $ 3000 ,to buy,just a watch?,Let us not better say ,a tenner or some other OTT prices ? I kid you not .

One (1) in 10000 (ten thou).,or 9000, but that's unimportant.

Our lovely Panerai knows it very, very well and produces them, just hoping that their marketeers,will do something better

than their last fiscal period,in selling the goodies.

If they target to sell ,lets say 5000 pieces, they will be happy to reach an 80 percent of that number,cover the expenses and make

a nice profit,for living and keep being in bussines.

With these in hand ,they don't give the slightest thought for the replica that is going to the hand of a layman or woman

in the street,for a sum of $ 100 to $ 500.They are not their market.It's like bringing coal to Newcastle,or selling ice cubes to Groenland.

The guy or girl that pays this money will NEVER buy a genuine product,simply because he,she thinks that its price is out of

reach.( if you want A watch just, for the time of it ,buy a plastic wonder for $ 10 and get on with it.)

In fact ,since they are aware,of the existence of that kind of market,they can exploit the possibility of controlling it,and get some

(lots of)nourishment from it. Just take a look at what the sports marketeers do.They sell REPLICAS,of their products.They are proud of it and they are labeling them ,for what they are.Replicas.

Why on earth it's legal for them and not for the Panerais of this world.(Don't say that they sell their name..read on)

A lesser,than the high end movement,can be used into a watch,for example, with fully respectable results.

And a non sandwich dial will do just fine.Same goes for the bezels and sapphires.

They are doing it after all,and they are making a range.

An image cautious maker,produces one thing,a statement product,and says that is that.If you like it buy it.

By ranging, you "diversify" into a market, aiming at price groups.

Me wants an Arktos,you a Radiomir gold,he a Marina,she a Luminor,etc.,etc.

Me wants to pay $200 for it ,you $ 500 ,and so on

If a no name manufacturer can do it,why don't they? They can reply,saying that it will tarnish the otherwise brilliant image

of the company.Come on guys,you are in the market for making monies not drawing images.

On the other hand the maker of a replica without the written permission of the name owner is illegal.There is no doubt about it.

But let them worry about it. If it is dangerous to them, let them name the watches "anonymous" If I Like it I'll buy it.

[Pugwash]

Do not think so. The laws are clear.Only an 100 percent identical item falls into the letter of the law.

The laws are much clearer than that clear. Anything breaking another companies copyright, trademarks or patents is illegal.

Putting Rolex on the dial is breaking Trademark. Using a Triplock crown (before the patent expired) is breaking patent law. Using a Panerai crown guard is breaking trademark. Passing off as another brand is breaking Trademark and copyright.

[Pugwash]

Oh, and our buying of replicas does hurt the brand owner. How many sales has Rolex lost because someone thought their friends would assume it's a fake so they bought a different brand instead?

[cc]

The laws are much clearer than that clear. Anything breaking another companies copyright, trademarks or patents is illegal.

Putting Rolex on the dial is breaking Trademark. Using a Triplock crown (before the patent expired) is breaking patent law. Using a Panerai crown guard is breaking trademark. Passing off as another brand is breaking Trademark and copyright.

word...

[georgegrasser]

Oh, and our buying of replicas does hurt the brand owner. How many sales has Rolex lost because someone thought their friends would assume it's a fake so they bought a different brand instead?

Two sides to the coin.

I felt wearing my rep Sub was a walking advertisment for Rolex.

[Pugwash]

Two sides to the coin.

I felt wearing my rep Sub was a walking advertisment for Rolex.

What you feel and what the truth is are two different things. A lot of people don't seem to understand that uncontrolled advertising can be terrifying to an image-based company like Rolex. They don't want you as an advert. They never asked and they're not happy.

[wjlamp]

Oh, and our buying of replicas does hurt the brand owner. How many sales has Rolex lost because someone thought their friends would assume it's a fake so they bought a different brand instead?

No,no and no.

Our buying ,hurts our pocket.By purchasing silly things we loose hard earned money.

If someone fears that his genuine watch will be taken as a fake,he has no right to have the money to buy the real thing (sic).After all

what's the point of buying something, just for make it a moving exhibition advertising item for his surroundings It is oxymoron.

You buy and use something for your pleasure .Nothing more nothing less. If you (not you literally) get pleasure from showing off

you don't deserve ,need a Rolex,or something equivalent.

Who told you that Rolex doesn't like their name to be on the lips of some potential buyers,even ones that don't eventually buy

the watch ,because of the fear of being ridiculed.Somebody else with more brains than brawn will buy it. No?

[lanikai]

Soooo what's your point.... .. seriously .... i ditto Pug ... tradmark .. copyright babe...

if it were not serious the Swiss Federation would not have gone after certain "people" this year ... i won't get into details to open a Pandora's Box... just know that the Swiss Government treats Rolex like a national treasure at times...

[Pugwash]

You buy and use something for your pleasure .Nothing more nothing less.

... and this is why you shouldn't consider yourself an advert for Rolex.

Sure, there are a lot more reasons, but the number one reason is you buy a Rolex to show you can afford a Rolex. It's why gold Datejusts and Presidents way outsell sports Rolexes. Wearing a Sub may show you like a sporty dive watch, but wearing an iced gold 'Lex shows you want people to respec' your wristbling like you spray more champagne than you drink.

The day those rich Asian businessmen stop looking at Rolex as a measure of success, and move to Patek, simply because their lift operator has a fake Deejay, is the day the counterfeit industry has killed Rolex.

[new & improved osteopath]

Hi,

I read various quotes about the hobby.Mainly, about being legal ,illegal or simply indifferent,the collecting buying or selling replica watches.

From the user's(buyer's)point of view,I can see nothing illegal,or damaging to the name of a firm.One buys an item

with full knowledge (pricewise,placewise)that it is a replica.It is not the same.That does it. Why do you think

replicas are 99.999 accurate to the original? Is it difficult for a producer to make it ,like it is?

Do not think so. The laws are clear.Only an 100 percent identical item falls into the letter of the law.

And this act, is a wholly different thing.

From the makers point of view,its a little bit different. Lets say for example Panerai..

They are manufacturing watches,and their selling target is a group of people with an "x" level of income and buying habits.

They are aware of the marketing potential of their products,and their aim is to attract,a portion of the market pie to them.

How many can fork out, $ 3000 ,to buy,just a watch?,Let us not better say ,a tenner or some other OTT prices ? I kid you not .

One (1) in 10000 (ten thou).,or 9000, but that's unimportant.

Our lovely Panerai knows it very, very well and produces them, just hoping that their marketeers,will do something better

than their last fiscal period,in selling the goodies.

If they target to sell ,lets say 5000 pieces, they will be happy to reach an 80 percent of that number,cover the expenses and make

a nice profit,for living and keep being in bussines.

With these in hand ,they don't give the slightest thought for the replica that is going to the hand of a layman or woman

in the street,for a sum of $ 100 to $ 500.They are not their market.It's like bringing coal to Newcastle,or selling ice cubes to Groenland.

The guy or girl that pays this money will NEVER buy a genuine product,simply because he,she thinks that its price is out of

reach.( if you want A watch just, for the time of it ,buy a plastic wonder for $ 10 and get on with it.)

In fact ,since they are aware,of the existence of that kind of market,they can exploit the possibility of controlling it,and get some

(lots of)nourishment from it. Just take a look at what the sports marketeers do.They sell REPLICAS,of their products.They are proud of it and they are labeling them ,for what they are.Replicas.

Why on earth it's legal for them and not for the Panerais of this world.(Don't say that they sell their name..read on)

A lesser,than the high end movement,can be used into a watch,for example, with fully respectable results.

And a non sandwich dial will do just fine.Same goes for the bezels and sapphires.

They are doing it after all,and they are making a range.

An image cautious maker,produces one thing,a statement product,and says that is that.If you like it buy it.

By ranging, you "diversify" into a market, aiming at price groups.

Me wants an Arktos,you a Radiomir gold,he a Marina,she a Luminor,etc.,etc.

Me wants to pay $200 for it ,you $ 500 ,and so on

If a no name manufacturer can do it,why don't they? They can reply,saying that it will tarnish the otherwise brilliant image

of the company.Come on guys,you are in the market for making monies not drawing images.

On the other hand the maker of a replica without the written permission of the name owner is illegal.There is no doubt about it.

But let them worry about it. If it is dangerous to them, let them name the watches "anonymous" If I Like it I'll buy it.

I would have to respectfully disagree with pretty much everything you just said. The designs and trademarked names are all protected, and any item which has a corporate logo not produced by or under cotract from the manufacture has just cause for suit.

ALSO

I think it is unreasonable to say that the customer for a replica would never be a customer for a gen. I have several reps, and several gens. The main instance in which I will buy a rep is when the genuine contains a mass produced movement, eta or otherwise. I feel like I'm being had when a rep has the same movement as a gen. The gens I purchase are all manufacture movements (with the exception of the PAM24), and therefore there will be no good reps. It has absolutely nothing to do with me being part of their target market. There are so many people on this forum with gens of very high value, that clearly there are customers for both at variable places on the spectrum.

-O

[Lucas]

I have to side with Pug on this as well. I tried to justify my purchases with saying that it benefits the industry with me marketing it and what not. But I think it is correct approach to see it for what it is instead. There is no justifying buying a rep. If I get filthy rich I will switch to genuine, but now I just cant afford it and I really love watches, which is a dilema.

thats my two pence

[wheaton26]

ballsy post for a newbie. fyi, i purchased a genuine panerai after owning a rep ... and i know many other that have done the same.

[Kollektor]

Justification for reps is an exercise in futility. IMO many of your axioms are flawed. As others above me mentioned, the rep buyer is apparently in a different demographic. Most here seem to purchase both reps and gens.

[lanikai]

... and this is why you shouldn't consider yourself an advert for Rolex.

Sure, there are a lot more reasons, but the number one reason is you buy a Rolex to show you can afford a Rolex. It's why gold Datejusts and Presidents way outsell sports Rolexes. Wearing a Sub may show you like a sporty dive watch, but wearing an iced gold 'Lex shows you want people to respec' your wristbling like you spray more champagne than you drink.

The day those rich Asian businessmen stop looking at Rolex as a measure of success, and move to Patek, simply because their lift operator has a fake Deejay, is the day the counterfeit industry has killed Rolex.

Very Well said Pug ... When doing busines in Japan with high management .. the first thing they look at is "what you have on your wrist", even going to a 5 star hotel that caters to affluent Japanese .. they will as a reflex look right at your wrist ... a friend of mine "had" to get a high end rep when going to japan on business (he recently bought a gen. day,date) because he knew he would not get far wearing a seiko .. sad but true..

they put a lot of wieght on what you have on your wrist .... sounds very superficial .... but they are a very materialistic and class oriented society .... for all we spend on reps all that money could very well buy a genuine ... one.... i rather have 20 ..LOL.. would i pay 10 k for a gen panerai... or do i think it is worth that in retail dollars.... no way... if it were 18kt maybe..

Good discussion .... enjoy the debate..

Thanks ... Lanikai

[wjlamp]

Good discussion .... enjoy the debate..

Thanks ... Lanikai

You got the point Lanikai. Good discussion...enjoy the ,healthy productive ,I could add,debate.

In an open forum we can exchange, well and not so well thought opinions,but not bad mannered comments.

As for the friend who said " Ballsy ",what ? As an owner of thirty time pieces ,give or take one, I am not newbie,and I do have some

officially stamped products (watches ),but for me aren't status .( Maybe again, my social class is a little "lower east side'" and they

are unaware of what a good watch means.)

For me, watches are grown boys and girl's toys. You know, toying with the idea of buying a ......or a .......(where's that exclamation mark ...ah. ,found it!!!!!

For the "Axioms" quote ....: thats not a math class,it's simply fun.

[Cats]

Of course everyone can share his thought in this forum.

@ wjlamp i have a legal backround and i know what i'm talking about.

I even have to appear in court soon to explain why i bought i Panerai for 80 euro's via the internet.

In some cases customs allow you to import , if you have it on you as they say ( meaning in your pocket hands or what ever ) when you enter the country.

Of course in that case the number of reps is limited ( 3 pieces in my case ).

If you buy via the internet or get your watch shipped into the country via the post FEDEX etc. it's ILLEGAL

Please don't try to confince people that they are not breaking the law , we are talking about

Patents , copyrights , trademarks and brand infringement

Cats

[wjlamp]

Of course everyone can share his thought in this forum.

@ wjlamp i have a legal backround and i know what i'm talking about.

I even have to appear in court soon to explain why i bought i Panerai for 80 euro's via the internet.

In some cases customs allow you to import , if you have it on you as they say ( meaning in your pocket hands or what ever ) when you enter the country.

Of course in that case the number of reps is limited ( 3 pieces in my case ).

If you buy via the internet or get your watch shipped into the country via the post FEDEX etc. it's ILLEGAL

Please don't try to confince people that they are not breaking the law , we are talking about

Patents , copyrights , trademarks and brand infringement

Cats

Well,excuzzzzzze me....., but I am not preaching.

And If I had the powers to hypnotize and convince even a simple soul that reads some lines in an Internet forum,then ,bless my souL..

For your information ,my profession is... ta,da ...customs broker,and I'm doing it for the best part of the last 26 years.I can tell that I know and practice the law and

all the tools of my trade.Legal and illegal is an open debate ,Pandora's box ,as Lalikai quite rightly said.

The brand names that lean on laws, in order to protect themselves are practicing accordingly. I can assure you that the majority simply do not give a camel's hair about it.

On the other hand if you buy online ,you are not in danger from the customs law enforcement only.The most dangerous part of an Internet deal is Fraud.

Just think,that if someone gives no second thoughts in the danger,of selling illegal products,he couldn't care less if you part with your 80 whatevers and send you an empty carton.

Please be kind and read carefully my post,again.You will be pleasantly surprised,in, that we are saying the same thing,only differently

[P4GTR]

I like watches and i'm having fun. Thats it. I see no reason to make a mountain out of a mole hill. There were fake watches long before I purchased one and there will be fake watches long after as well.

Hopefully all of our governments have much better things to do then worry about poor 'ol Rolex and Panerai. $10,000 for a watch? C'mon, who's fooling who here.

[lanikai]

Well,excuzzzzzze me....., but I am not preaching.

And If I had the powers to hypnotize and convince even a simple soul that reads some lines in an Internet forum,then ,bless my souL..

For your information ,my profession is... ta,da ...customs broker,and I'm doing it for the best part of the last 26 years.I can tell that I know and practice the law and

all the tools of my trade.Legal and illegal is an open debate ,Pandora's box ,as Lalikai quite rightly said.

The brand names that lean on laws, in order to protect themselves are practicing accordingly. I can assure you that the majority simply do not give a camel's hair about it.

On the other hand if you buy online ,you are not in danger from the customs law enforcement only.The most dangerous part of an Internet deal is Fraud.

Just think,that if someone gives no second thoughts in the danger,of selling illegal products,he couldn't care less if you part with your 80 whatevers and send you an empty carton.

Please be kind and read carefully my post,again.You will be pleasantly surprised,in, that we are saying the same thing,only differently

Dear wjlamp .... customs brokers are our friends ... or at least mine... I had a heart to heart if you will, with customs officials and the out come was...'to protect yourself .. use a customs broker"..

At the beggining of your post i was going to ask you if you are just trying to gather information from this forum ...

but you are correct in saying that no one knows the law better than a customs broker... knows how to circumvent the law's gray areas... and that what it is all about..

so, don't take the critics soo seriously ... everyone is an authority (tech to listen to.. sssurfer, kruzer,chieftang,and a list of others)... especially here...LOL.. don't you know it's forums like these that ..."Decide the Fate of The Civilized World" .. on a daily and nightly basis>>>>LOL>>>> some even get calls at all hours from the Leaders of their countries asking... no.... pleading for advise on how to save the Planet...

Just yesterday George..... let's just say G.B. so he will stay anonymous tried to get in touch with several members asking for leads on what strap he should wear to luncheon with the British PM ... that's when we asked VB to headline a strap review so the world leaders stop bothering us all when we're trying to sleep..

most watch nuts don't play with a full deck... even if you combined all the decks of all the members you still could not come up with a full deck..

I think this forum just thrives on controversy...... but it would be really boring ... if everone had the same view point.,. ask me how MY weekend was on the forum ..... NAAHHHH better not

but we are all in this for one thing... .... we love watches ... not for profit...because we all need regulating and oiling from time to time.. .. some run slow... some run fast... some don't run at all

now if you said you were with customs... see how many members post anything to that..

Peace ..Love...LIVE STRONG AND WEAR IT WELL ....LANIKAI

[Victoria]

Just yesterday George..... let's just say G.B. so he will stay anonymous tried to get in touch with several members asking for leads on what strap he should wear to luncheon with the British PM ... that's when we asked VB to headline a strap review so the world leaders stop bothering us all when we're trying to sleep..

most watch nuts don't play with a full deck... even if you combined all the decks of all the members you still could not come up with a full deck..

Heh. Guess what? I've found out most people who are members of most speciality forums are nuts. Me leading the conga line of craziness, obviously.

Stirring the pot is good. It keeps us all on our toes. Yet, there is a difference between that and being punchy back when people don't take to your thoughts like you believe they should in one of your first posts.

Let's never lose sight of the fact, though, that we are dealing with an illegal enterprise, which steals ideas, creativity, and sweat from others.

In the big adult world we've assigned names like "trademark", "copyright", etc. to describe this, but between you, me, and the deep blue sea we still know it's just called, "cheating".

And I've yet to meet a single person who likes being cheated when they're the victim.

Hey, did anyone ever see that TV programme called "Cheaters"? I loved that show! I wanted to be on that show!

And I'm so busted when they do a series on rep collectors.

[lanikai]

really ... like there are more important things to deal with such as.... the 252 and 186 are getting ready to have their coming out party ... anyone else hear about this!!!

VB .. you are fast becoming the Head Mistress here .. ... did I use the right euphamism ???

[Victoria]

VB .. you are fast becoming the Head Mistress here .. ... did I use the right euphamism ???

Victoria, or Vic, or Vicky, lanikai pleasssse. "VB" sounds like a bad rash ointment or a substandard Aussie beer. *DUCK!!*

Head Mistress, NEVER. Mine had a moustache and took cough drops hoping staff and pupils wouldn't smell her gin & tonic breath. Well, I'm here to tell you that we did.

[lanikai]

You got the point Lanikai. Good discussion...enjoy the ,healthy productive ,I could add,debate.

In an open forum we can exchange, well and not so well thought opinions,but not bad mannered comments.

As for the friend who said " Ballsy ",what ? As an owner of thirty time pieces ,give or take one, I am not newbie,and I do have some

officially stamped products (watches ),but for me aren't status .( Maybe again, my social class is a little "lower east side'" and they

are unaware of what a good watch means.)

For me, watches are grown boys and girl's toys. You know, toying with the idea of buying a ......or a .......(where's that exclamation mark ...ah. ,found it!!!!!

For the "Axioms" quote ....: thats not a math class,it's simply fun.

"the only difference between men and boyz are the price of their toys" ... do you know who said that ......Me just now..LOL

notice after the word "customs" seems like no one is posting .... no worries Wj .... i was called a flake.. in a thread.. well i just don't like to be so rigid that it hurts.... you know the old saying sticks and stones may break my bones but whips and chains excite me...

we are all so different.... the world has shrunk because of the internet.. sometmes good,... sometimes different ..lol... we are all learning each others cultural differences through ... (who would have thought) ............ Watches ... what a paralel ... time ... watches ... universe.... ok i am getting flakey again ..time to lite a stick and zone out to a DVD... see you

[offshore]

Ahhhh Victoria,

DUCK indeed.

Just because the swill that is brewed and branded as such in other climes, may well be sub standard, I can assure you that the genuine..... as akin to the rep.... in this case, is chalk and cheese.

Bit like a Rolex with an Asian movement!

I can assure you that the Offshore household is a major consumer of C & U product, actually Carlton Draught is more highly thought of, but VB certainly has pride of place on our shelves.

And amazingly, Mr Offshore is more likely to imbibe of a rum or three; it's actually Mrs Offshore who has taste buds for a good ale.

The quality of the water, where the product is brewed, has huge bearing on the finished product, ( bit like a Swiss watch actually) Even here in sunny Queensland, the locally brewed product, doesn't hold a candle to the "genuine" Victoria Bitter, from cold old Melboune....in Victoria!

Offshore

[Victoria]

"the only difference between men and boyz are the price of their toys" ... do you know who said that ......Me just now..LOL

Man (in the full sense of the word) is an acquisitive being. Before we had castles, we had caves.

I bet you my right teat we compared which had the biggest rock, and who sported the best sabretooth pelts.

And some wiseguy started copying the designs so that cheapskates wouldn't pay full price! Oh the agony when the smoke signals were not answered about our orders. Torture!

notice after the word "customs" seems like no one is posting .... no worries Wj .... i was called a flake.. in a thread.. well i just don't like to be so rigid that it hurts.... you know the old saying sticks and stones may break my bones but whips and chains excite me...

Take it from me, the 3 fold target of personal jibes in 3 days, don't mention it casually on another thread because your insultor (is this a word? It is now, beeatches!) will never hear it.

Go back to that thread, and ram them up the keister, going full-on 150mph.

OR, you can take Moli