Read a true story about JOE and tell all your friends !

[namor]

Oh Joe. It's always the same - you just miss the point.

I never stated you didn't told me that cyclops removing/reglueing is a seperate job.

It's ok. That's a work for it's own and you charge something for that. It's ok.

But fact is you never told me that the cyclops is crooked on this one - I just received it as is.

How can I order a cyclops reglueing job from you when I never saw that watch before ?

If you had told me that - I would have had the possibility to think about it.

Other thing you're riding on for no sense is that price-thing.

Again - please show me a post from me where I do say you are overpriced ?

Find me that passage and then we can discuss further about this.

Just a little reminder for you all: as I said before I have all mails in my postbox - nothing to hide.

If necessary members who know me personally are invited to read them in original order here on my harddisk.

I can forward them to the mods, but this would only cause suspicion whether I changed them before forwarding or childish stuff like that - as you see not everyone here is debating at the same respectful level.

[RWG Technical]

Sorry no flames from me, I think in french and write in english, so it takes me time to get this all down...dont' be too disapointed...

So rather than lower myself and get into a pissing contest - yet again I will keep it short and sweet (I knew without a doubt, that my single post would stir up a hornets nest. Joe your biting the hand that fed you...how soon they forget...).

Well as expected, nothing has changed, Joe is still Joe, and flips out at the least comment I make, any of you ever wonder how my comment could stir up so much hate and resentment?

I have never met anyone so vehemently against the person who got him started and taught him so much... Joe you have the shortest memory and are the biggest lier I have ever met. You may think that people are not smart enough to see through your lies, but your sadly mistaken...

Rather than go on and prolongue the agony for those reading this, the long and short of it is this, you will draw your own conclusions and base your decisions on whatever turns your crank. I can't, and won't try and rebutt any of Joe's totally ludricous lies - and that's all they are lies, unfortunatly the truth is [censored] baffles brains, it always has, and it always will...prepare to be baffled yet again, and have the whole topic turned around so that everyone looses sight of the real issues...

Those that know and have delt with me, know the truth - those that haven't, well believe what you will.

Floor is yours Joe, have at it sir, everyone is listening...

For the sanity of everyone here, this is it from me, please see page 1, and re-read my comments, then decide if the response from Joe is justified - given what I said. Then wonder why???

Cheers,

RG

[namor]

interesting. so if tommy fixed the crystal, why is it still not alligned??? stay tuned kids!

There is nothing to be tuned yodaddynukka.

The pictures show the watch I received. The Thread is about paying big money and getting a poor watch.

The actual condition of the watch is completely uninteresting for this topic. (But if you're curious I described what I did with it on page 4)

[rbj69]

Oh Joe. It's always the same - you just miss the point.

I never stated you didn't told me that cyclops removing/reglueing is a seperate job.

It's ok. That's a work for it's own and you charge something for that. It's ok.

But fact is you never told me that the cyclops is crooked on this one - I just received it as is.

How can I order a cyclops reglueing job from you when I never saw that watch before ?

If you had told me that - I would have had the possibility to think about it.

Other thing you're riding on for no sense is that price-thing.

Again - please show me a post from me where I do say you are overpriced ?

Find me that passage and then we can discuss further about this.

Just a little reminder for you all: as I said before I have all mails in my postbox - nothing to hide.

If necessary members who know me personally are invited to read them in original order here on my harddisk.

I can forward them to the mods, but this would only cause suspicion whether I changed them before forwarding or childish stuff like that - as you see not everyone here is debating at the same respectful level.

ok i cant remember for sure if i didnt tell u the cyclops was crooked before i sent it but the fact is i still sent u a after picture , like i do for everyone, even so i still made good on the crooked crystal even though , so what is your point , r u saying i didnt come through , r u saying im only human , or what?

the point is u said the word scamm which is a LIE< i never scammed u did i? if so tell us how i scammed u please ?

[namor]

@ziggyzumba

Well said.

I complained about that before - just flaming, turnaround facts, pulling the topic away, many lies and agression.

And still no answer. Not one answer.

And no comment to other peoples issues waiting for months.

[rbj69]

Sorry no flames from me, I think in french and write in english, so it takes me time to get this all down...dont' be too disapointed...

So rather than lower myself and get into a pissing contest - yet again I will keep it short and sweet (I knew without a doubt, that my single post would stir up a hornets nest. Joe your biting the hand that fed you...how soon they forget...).

Well as expected, nothing has changed, Joe is still Joe, and flips out at the least comment I make, any of you ever wonder how my comment could stir up so much hate and resentment?

I have never met anyone so vehemently against the person who got him started and taught him so much... Joe you have the shortest memory and are the biggest lier I have ever met. You may think that people are not smart enough to see through your lies, but your sadly mistaken...

Rather than go on and prolongue the agony for those reading this, the long and short of it is this, you will draw your own conclusions and base your decisions on whatever turns your crank. I can't, and won't try and rebutt any of Joe's totally ludricous lies - and that's all they are lies, unfortunatly the truth is [censored] baffles brains, it always has, and it always will...prepare to be baffled yet again, and have the whole topic turned around so that everyone looses sight of the real issues...

Those that know and have delt with me, know the truth - those that haven't, well believe what you will.

Floor is yours Joe, have at it sir, everyone is listening...

For the sanity of everyone here, this is it from me, please see page 1, and re-read my comments, then decide if the response from Joe is justified - given what I said. Then wonder why???

Cheers,

RG

i really dont feel like getting into a [censored] contest with u either but u always start it and play innocent ,!like u r doing again, this time im sick and im even more furious with u , i thought u were at least human and the way u acted when the new rwg went up in our talk i thought u were trying to be a nice person and befriend me but now i see u just wait for the chance to say something negative but the good thing is i never trusted u anyway , and i really do appreciate some of the stuff i have learned from but it seems u have learned a few things from me as well so i feel its a wash i still dont work much on movments i just let my movment guy do the mechanic work for me , now i have to leave for a spell like u said people now have the truth and i am no worry about what they conclude cause the people that know me know me and i stand by my work , yes right now im ill but soon i will be back to my old self makeing watches pretty for everyone

[triplehd]

I had two watches modded by Joe which I am very very pleased with the results and currently waiting for another watch for Joes' mods. I even posted one on the boards - Omega GMT, which was praised by many other members. In addition, when I see members posting their watches with mods by Joe - everyone would praise the watch and the workmanship by Joe. I never saw a post bashing Joe or Joe's work, until now. If Joe's work is flawed, why are there tutorials by Joe posted on all of the boards? At the sametime, why do people request Joe to create tutorials?

We have one member who did not like the work by Joe and waited to post his dislikes. Then, we have many other members coming out of the wood works bashing Joe - for what? Because he didn't respond to your e-mails? your pms? your posts?

When Joe posted that he wasn't feeling well, what did everyone write besides get well - "Don't worry about the watches, they can wait" or "Your health is more important - my watch can wait." Now all of a sudden, everyone is coming out saying that they are waiting way too long for their watches. Well, if he writes a thread stating that he is sick and cannot work on watches while poeple are sending him watches, what do you expect - your watch next week?

And for those who complain about the prices - remember - Joe will quote you prices either prior to you sending out the watch and definitely before he starts working on it. Once Joe quotes you a price, there are two options - either accept the price and send Joe the watch or do not accept the price and do not send the watch to Joe. And there's always the option of sending your watch to someone else if you do not like Joe's prices.

As for the mods process itself, people will contact Joe about modding a watch. Remember, we are going to Joe. We are requesting mods from Joe. Joe is not coming to us nor is he forcing any of us to get mods. Wanna know how many times he talked me out of getting certain mods done to one of my watches?

[rbj69]

@The Zigmeisterzumba

Well said.

I complained about that before - just flaming, turnaround facts, pulling the topic away, many lies and agression.

And still no answer. Not one answer.

And no comment to other peoples issues waiting for months.

u can t read here again for u IM SICK AND IM BEHIND AND I AM WORKING ON GETTING CAUGHT UP , take care

[namor]

ok i cant remember for sure if i didnt tell u the cyclops was crooked before i sent it but the fact is i still sent u a after picture , like i do for everyone, even so i still made good on the crooked crystal even though , so what is your point , r u saying i didnt come through , r u saying im only human , or what?

the point is u said the word scamm which is a LIE< i never scammed u did i? if so tell us how i scammed u please ?

Joe, I'm not really sure you if you read all of the pages. You seem not. No problem, you can now and we will go on when you're through that - ok ? Fair chance to everyone.

It's just so tiring to explain everything half a dozen times - all of your questions were asked before and answered by me.

After reading all you will perhaps realize that I want NOTHING from you. No money, no watch - if you want to donate to our home but I want NOTHING.

Since last summer I read a little issue with you here, a little there and always stood still. Lately this issues were growing and after reading posts from members waiting for their watches for months I decided to share my experience too.

[rbj69]

Joe, I'm not really sure you if you read all of the pages. You seem not. No problem, you can now and we will go on when you're through that - ok ? Fair chance to everyone.

It's just so tiring to explain everything half a dozen times - all of your questions were asked before and answered by me.

After reading all you will perhaps realize that I want NOTHING from you. No money, no watch - if you want to donate to our home but I want NOTHING.

Since last summer I read a little issue with you here, a little there and always stood still. Lately this issues were growing and after reading posts from members waiting for their watches for months I decided to share my experience too.

the whole point is when u come out calling me a scammer please state what your problems were and if they were fixed , if so then whats the problem and how can u say i scammed u? my point is u did not get scammed the problems u have may have existed but were minor and very fixable which i did and now u repay me for standing behind my work to make u happy by insulting me, that is something u will have to live with me not me, i know i did everything i was supposed to do for u , and one other point is u paid 600 bucks not for only my work , u paid 220 for the watch , i read somewhere where u made it sound like u paid me 600 for the work done on that watch and u only paid around 350 bucks for my work and parts, take care and i will come back tomorrow to see what else i have to set straight, geesh a guy can even be sick around here ,and remember i can make a mistake im human but i take my time and i dont make many , but if i do i will fix the problem that is facts

regards joe

[Nebakanezzar]

I didn't chose a short-cut Nebakanezzar, this was a regular option Joe offered. I never said Joe crooked the cyclops (just to take an example) - it sure was crooked including the bad bracelet.

Only thing that would make sense in this case is to exchange that bad watch with king and write me a little mail that the whole watch will be delayed 2-3 weeks cause king delivered a less nice watch with serious issues.

That easy. It was wrong to start a whole modding package on such a watch.

But that is not the problem of the customer ! If I get a watch from a dealer and the send it to Joe he is not responsible for any existing issues with that watch.

But if he regularly offers in his pricelist to get the watch for you and mod it directly and THEN send it out to you he IS responsible for that. He even charged 20,- USD more than kings regular price.

He explained me this additional fee and that was ok for me. I prevented trouble to have the watch firstly sent to me, than to Joe and then back to me.

well, this depends. if this is a service that Joe "offers", than yeah I geuss that implies he should be responsible for making sure the watch he recievs is in good order. if this is a service "you" asked of him, than I dont think it would be his responsobility to make sure the watch is in good order...as you would be giving up the right to inspect it yourself...either way, you are putting yourself in a bad possition "assuming" he would check it over and bypassing the step of having the watch sent to you first to inspect. Ultimatly (weather Joe should have or shouldnt have checked it) you chose to rely upon him...IMH that is to some degree your fault for being lazy (maybe not the best term...but you get the point I think). when I talked to Joe about a DRSD, I now remember he did mention he could have it shipped to him...but I remember thinking I would want to see it first myself, and not wanting to pursue that option.....I know zig does not (or at least didnt before) accept watches that are shipped directly to him from dealers...for just this reason I would assume.

but yeah, I guess Joe probobly should have closly inspected the watch on arival.

what about having palp fix the problems? did that occure? is the watch better now?

[triplehd]

Namor - how much did you spend on mods?

You wrote:

- I am scammed for more than 600 bucks. (And YES friends ! SCAMMED definetely IS the right expression for this !!!)

u paid 220 for the watch , i read somewhere where u made it sound like u paid me 600 for the work done on that watch and u only paid around 350 bucks for my work and parts,

I was under the impression that you spend $600 worth of mods.......

Edited May 15, 2006 by triplehd

[Thor]

As stated before... everyone should be free to express his opinion about another member if it's not offending... sometimes this isn't very easy for some of us... we have to keep in mind that a lot of us aren't native english speakers and have some language problems...

If all of you have to post in your second or third language you learned for some years in school, i'm sure some troubles are only based on the language problem... same could be by using the word "scam" it could have different meanings to the ones using it...

I don't see a problem if a customer isn't happy with what he gets for his money... we all expect different things... a good friend of you can recommend you an restaurant... he really likes it there and think it's the money worth while you don't like the style the cook is preparing the food and so on... i'm sure a thrid friend of yours like to hear both opinions...

I think if someone has another opinion it all should be discussed in a rational way so all parties profit from it...

I would suggest that in future the moddders and guys offering similar service make a pic before and after modding the watch so the customer could see the results... (it wouldn't take too much time) if a customer isn't happy with the work and the modder things this is ok... both pics before and after should be sent to an expert assessment... which could judge is the work is done properly or not... i would nominate all well known modders into this jury (40% of the whole jury), some of the members here with the most knowledge and best eye for the moddings (40%), and some members which are designated by lot of the whole community (20%)...

All members in the jury doing it out of free will the ones elected only for a month... i'm sure we could make something like our admin-section so these members could have an private room to make their decissions...

The call for the jury should be an exception... and done by one of the involved persons...

[namor]

Namor - how much did you spend on mods?

You wrote:

- I am scammed for more than 600 bucks. (And YES friends ! SCAMMED definetely IS the right expression for this !!!)

Whole package including all was exactly 640,- USD I now have my bank-statement on my desk where my bank charged me that amount for a money order.

@Joe

quote me please - where did I say I paid 600,- USD for the modifications only ?

[RWG Technical]

now ziggy u r so funny .............. but i think u just wanted to get the heat off your back with your problem customers

Name one for the benifit of the forum, I have no problem customers...

that is fine we can resume your childish fun to try and discredit me , doesnt bother me at all,(just remember im not base and im not shady) i wish we had all the things we talked about in front of us , like my prices and yours , i remember u showing off a piece u did that really was not up to par

Childish, well I wonder how my comments on page one, resulted in this verbal gibberish... That wouldn't be the Comex sub I did. If I remeber your comments on eveyone's work, you were always negative towards each and every person who tried to do their own work, so that comment is just your normal negative Nellie not liking anyone doing anyting but you...

but i didnt say anything it was over at trc with one of your customers,(u asked and i actually wrote u some help to make it better) and then u told your price u charged him like u were way cheaper than me and i came on there and said that is funny cause u say im expensive for the same work but u were actually higher than me(i think it was like 10 bucks but nevertheless u were more and it doesnt bother me until u run your mouth ) , lmao u left quickly on that one as u always do when u see your hands getting slapped (like everytime we discuss our issues) lol

Hmmm, so I charged $175 for the "Works package" and you charge $700 for the same work, I can link the thread if you like...you must be using the new math...wrong again...

but i have been here working on watches for a long while,(as long as u mr. ziggy)

Sorry, wrong again sir, I have been around watches for 35 years, your into your second year, try again...

pretty much with 100% feedback till now(unlike u mr. zig)

Again, plse show me one customer that was not happy with my work, only one... I remember many of your watches ending up on my bench for repair, following your first tries at watchmaking, and you remember them as well...

to sum it up ziggy u r a snake

Very mature comments, as usual...keep deflecting the topic at hand...

peoople that love ziggy seems like those r the only people who have problems with me

You simply hate the fact that I am willing to give to the forum and post informative posts, or the fact that I invented many of the procedures you are using today. If it wasn't for me, you would still be polishing golf clubs...you have a short memory and are the most ungrateful person I have ever met, I saved your ass many times...and you know it, I also taught you much of the stuff you know and use...remember?

i still love all of u , i just dont understand none of u , that could be a good thing i guess lol

So do we, I just dont' understand you either...guess the summed up comment would be that you feel very threatned by me and what I know, so this is your way of confusing the issue. However this time, I will answer and rebutt each and every one of your comments because they simply aren't true...

RG

[Nebakanezzar]

Hang on, I just read Palps post...so i understand it to say he fixed the problems on the watch already?

If this is so, what is the problem? Joe sent you a messed up watch, but offerd to fix it, when you declined due to shipping issues he agreed to do it your way by having Palp fix it...so he went out of his way to do it your way inorder make sure it got fixed?

if I am reading this right, what exactly is the problem Namor?

[triplehd]

if I am reading this right, what exactly is the problem Namor?

How many other people had an issue(s) with Joe's work and only his work (yes, everyone is waiting for their watches, we know that). Who else besides Namor received poor workmanship from Joe?

Again, I only read praises for Joe's work.

[rbj69]

The Zigmeister old trickster as u r , u r ludicrous to say what u just said, u never doen crown guards till i did u even admitted it was not so easy and u said 175 for your works package, mine is 150 not 700 again u dont want a pissing contest but u r begging for it as usual, the only thing that ended on your bench back then was montys sub and a guy name mike because u told me to put vaseline all in it actually words "glob it on thick" so i did and the result was bad so i had him send it to u to fix cause u felt u should because u told me to do that to it actually , tell the facts bro, i have nothing to hide, and montys was my very first watch for money , and u r correct i pressed the release mechanism too hard and at the time didnt know enought to fix it but still stood by my work lmao u crack me up , talking about digging , how about when mike sent u the watch and u added this and that stating u got taxed extra and it needed this and that, also how about the lello crown incident from bertieng u got so mad cause he was not satisfied with that crappy job ,

also u r funny as hell u taught me how to remove a bezel and it was the wrong way , lmao and i have had many do it yourselfer try your little methods and mess them up aka bend them aka scar the hek out of them , so r u really helping them or hurting them lol , i think u want them to do it themselves because u know it is tidious and u may get u some work from them messing up , let me tell u i dont recommend doing many things here because it is easy to mess it up and will cost u more sometimes, we r dealing with picky people here for the most part , dont forget that,

i am greatful for some of the intellect u have showed us about movments but as far as cosmetics u really havent taught me much of anything if anything u have learned from me again i have many post on how to do things but i see u dont show some things and refrain from telling people how to on reluming , simply becuase that is your money pit , lets be honest here, u dont mind showing all kinds of stuff u do but i read all the time people asking u what u use to do this and that for reluming and u either dont answer or say something like u choose not to tell because of blah blah blah , lmao at any rate many know where i come from when it comes from u , u r the biggest smoke screen guy here, and try to talk educated to get work, i just tell it like it is and do what i say until now but soon when i get better i will be back in rare form and i will be ready for anything u drum up to attack me with , its funny u always try to do this when im not looking straight on , thats ok many know u by now and know the truth , im not going anywhere cause i have nothing to hide and never have , later mr. frenchman

[Memonty]

This is some thread! Joe I am glad to see you posting. I was getting quite concerned about you since you have not been posting for some time and not returning my calls. So as far as I am concerned this thread has been useful for that reason, if for no other.

My sub has been worked on by both Joe and The Zigmeister, my name on the other forums is Monty but it is Memonty here because someone else already had Monty. Since my sub was mentioned above I thought I would add a little to this thread.

I have been happy with the work that was done by Joe on my sub, period. Communication back and forth with Joe has always been good if not great. (The exception to this has been in the very recent past. I was trying to communicate with Joe about his health and not about a watch, so I do not count not hearing from him while he has been ill.) The work has always been done promptly.

The Zigmeister serviced the movement on my sub when the stem pulled out all the way. Pretty embarrasing, it happened on an airplane when I was subtly trying to show the watch off to people seated next to me. You know, pulling the shirt sleeve up kind of maneuver so people could see what I was wearing. (You guys probably never do this kind of childish showing off.) I was resetting the watch to a different time zone when it happened. I communicated with The Zigmeister and I sent the watch to him. He fixed the problem and serviced it. It keeps perfect time, plus or minus a second or so every 24 hours. I sent it to The Zigmeister because Joe was not working on movements and The Zigmeister was the person who did movements. Everyone here knows how great his posts are regarding movements.

Joe did consult with The Zigmeister about my watch in regard to the movement because the hack function was not working. The Zigmeister advised Joe about what the problem was. Joe did repair this. I know also that Joe respected The Zigmeister for his knowledge about movements. He also remarked about how great a guy The Zigmeister was.

Anyway, I am the proud owner of a watch that was the first one Joe modded and also serviced by The Zigmeister. So I consider it to be a real keepsake because both of them do fine work and they both worked on my sub.

In this world nothing is perfect. We get into arguments and say things that later on we regret or at least realize could have been said better. Friendships are broken and if we are fortunate they might be renewed. We share a common affection for watches and participate in a far flung community gathered around that common affection.

It is important to express opinions, I think that has been done in this thread.

Now, I think it would be good to get back to talking about our latest prize or acquisition, or about what we are thinking about getting or wishing to get.

I am thinking about getting an Omega Planet Ocean, can't decide on Orange or Black. Any suggestions?

[triplehd]

I am thinking about getting an Omega Planet Ocean, can't decide on Orange or Black. Any suggestions?

Ah...you should have just ask, "Who has the best Planet Ocean ?" Lol.....

[RWG Technical]

Ah yes, that I am, an old trickster that likes to mess with you and tell you to put globs of vaseline on watches..."he he he...look Mildrid, I told him to put vaseline on a watch, and he's doing it..." typical Joe, twist the truth and make up stuff. The rest of your lies don't deserve a comment, I made my point with all the answers to your first set of lies...which you have chosen to ignore...as I said BS baffles some brains, but not all...

It's really too bad that those that are sending me pm's and emails don't speak up about the overcharges and lies from you, come on folks, be honest and state your experiences...inquiring minds want to know...members want to know from you - not me...can't you tell, Joe doesn't like me anymore.

Joe, I am not the one who has watches in house for months and customers complaining - you are! So stop wasting you time shitting on me, it's making you look bad (of 8 pages of comments, you choose to respond to me and namor...but more specifically me...) . You have work to do, simply get on with it and take care of your customers, I wont' bother you again with my petty comments...later mr....hmmmmm.....I can't think of a smart ass response without risking offending others, although you think nothing of it...shows your maturity...

Get on with the work at hand...your still mad because I won't tell you how to lume, come on, move on with your life, you have enough to do without getting into lume work...

I am off to bed, this is a dead horse and not worth the time typing responses...

RG

Edited May 16, 2006 by ziggyzumba

[rbj69]

again no problem just play it off by calling me a liar taht is your style hopefully the vaseline guy will come out soon on this and monty just told the truth and thanks monty btw, and im sry but u know why i havent talked much lately and again i dont have a problem with my customers waiting for the most part most understand and r waiting patiently , the ones that have been waiting months as u call it r certain projects u cant do overnight, i call them new projects and i have to experiment on my stuff first, before i go and do surgery on someone elses first , that is how i do things and The Zigmeister i always will care for u and hope nothing happens to u but u r correct i dont like u as a person cause u use your witty comments and twist them to sound like they r correct and u r so innocent and i dont have to read through it ,many of my friend customers already have lol now go lume and leave my work to me ,talk about immature people that is the pot calling the kettle black lmao good night all see u soon and one thing u said is correct this is beating a dead horse

[Richard Tracy]

One thing for sure, and it's not your fault Joe,

....... there is too much work for you to handle.

In future, you need to pace yourself and slow down of accepting new orders when you

don't know when you can complete the work in a timely manner,..and should send

the majority of the watches back until your health returns.

Seems obvious that this board stirs up too much business for a few guys to do it all...

we need more modders...so if anyone is reading this,.. there's work for good and fast people ...

Leave it at that..

[gpuck]

Hang on, I just read Palps post...so i understand it to say he fixed the problems on the watch already?

If this is so, what is the problem? Joe sent you a messed up watch, but offerd to fix it, when you declined due to shipping issues he agreed to do it your way by having Palp fix it...so he went out of his way to do it your way inorder make sure it got fixed?

if I am reading this right, what exactly is the problem Namor?

Yes, what is the point of this post if your Mods have all been completed? If Palp fixed everything and did not charge you, you still only paid the agreed on amount of $640 to Joe.

[robertrinaustin]

Hang on, I just read Palps post...so i understand it to say he fixed the problems on the watch already?

If this is so, what is the problem? Joe sent you a messed up watch, but offerd to fix it, when you declined due to shipping issues he agreed to do it your way by having Palp fix it...so he went out of his way to do it your way inorder make sure it got fixed?

if I am reading this right, what exactly is the problem Namor?

I’ve been quite on here for a while because of travel for work and I’m not one to call out fellow members or flame anyone, but this thread is exactly what stinks about forums. I have one simple question; did Joe pay to have the watch fixed by Palp? This appears to be Joe's story. If so, the original poster is a moron and should be banned for stupidity alone.

Namor, you complained and refused to let the guy fix his work, so he pays for someone else to do it and you come on here and call him a "scammer", unbelievable. If this is indeed the case, your idiocy is beyond comprehension. Your "true story about Joe" seems to have conveniently omitted some very pertinant facts.