Read a true story about JOE and tell all your friends !

[namor]

One more point:

of course he has received the watch with this crystal (I ordered the watch directly from him). Perhaps the bracelet was in this condition too. He told me he usually get the Submariners from Ms.King.

So why the hell do you start working on a watch with flaws like this ? If he really would had done the watertesting he would have seen even more that this watch IS faulty.

Just contact Ms.King and send this watch back to get another. ALL of our Dealers offer us this service.

And for him it would have been more than easy - buying so many quantities, I'm sure Ms.King would have sent him one without wanting the faulty back...

And now please don't tell me "perhaps he didn't see the faults..." I paid over 400,- USD to delete all possible issues and improve the watch. This cyclops jumps into your face even when you look elsewhere !

[XRT]

One one hand you are telling us that "Joe is your Friend" while you stand up placing your

hat clearly on one side..and on the other, that we are only dealing with 'fake' watches,

easy come easy go...if you get ripped off.. Tuff Luck...

huh? non sequitar

No one is saying "Tuff Luck." I am saying to pay into a 'stolen watch fund' is an idea that I don't support.

I am drawing on the 'FDR initiative' analogy to highlight the silliness of this socialist idea to help fellow replica watch hobbiers regain their financial footing so they can start their lives anew. Come on Richard, I'm having some fun with your idea.

[Richard Tracy]

@Richard

I am not on Joe's side here, but I think a fund for stuff like this is silly. We are a community, yes, but throwing money into a fund is not a solution. If anything, it invites more of these scammers. WIth a fun, they can get away with it knowing people will be taken care of. It simply opens up a box that we shouldn't be looking into.

Remember the RWG watch? Who's going to run this thing? How can we be sure this fund is safe? How do you prevent people from taking advantage of it? Do you only let veterans to dip in? What makes them better than a newbie that's been screwed?

The fact of the matter is we need to expose those who create problems within. Funds are not the solution. Namor did the right thing, and those who outed base on old RWG did the right thing.

You may disagree but the word 'Silly' is simply an insult...

I know that a fully funded board can be much more secure for all involved...

and logistics are a weak excuse to stand in the way of it without offering

more than exposure..

Sure we need open accountability for dealers, members and craftspersons alike,..

but now what is the back-up after the fact ? Because dealing with people and money

there are always going to be .. occasions.

One way is to stop expecting something for nothing...

Keep doing so and eventually it all evens out....

[cib0rgman]

I have done business with Joe several times. It does not sounds like him.

I am sure that he will clear things up.

[nonskeder]

Wow: This has to be a day of strange dealings. On the dark side Klink went off big time on The Zigmeister. He or the mods deleted the thread so Klink was saved from a lynching but none the less he is in for a beating by those who saw it.

Now to Joe. From my dealings with Joe it has been on the up and up. Had him do several watches for me. Have to admit I have had Mods remorse from time to time. I dont think the new reps really need a thing done to them with the exception of a better pearl. With the reps getting better and better I think that doing mods on reps will be a thing of the past. I have never had anyone ask about a watch I was wearing weather it was a rep or a gen. That tells me that the only ones who give a damn are watch geeks. With that being said I think (remember I have done the mod thing big time) that mods in general are a waste of time, money and worry. There are shipping issues, workmanship issues, ect ect. In the end no one will know the difference unless you run into of a fellow watch geek member. I have been full circle on this mod thing. Now I no longer need the perfect watch. Dont have the passion for it. It has been said all befor that a rep is just a rep. Amen brother!

I have emailed and called Joe without getting any response from him. He has two watches that are to undergo the dreaded mod deal. Will I ever see them again. I really dont know. If I was to bet on it I would say he will come thru. I do think that he is sick (maybe sick and tired of the watch thing) and he has been down with whatever he has. He has always treated me fairly and the work has been very good. Damn I would like to get the MBW white vintage SD from him but who knows. Watch guys come and they go. There is probably RBJjr waiting in the wings to take over as we speak.

I do think that we need a good watch repair guy at arms length. That would be The Zigmeister. He has worked and seviced watches for me and has been great to deal with. With the mod thing waining IMO sevicing will be more important than making them look OK as they look damn good now. Just think how good they will be a couple yrs from now.

OK the air is getting a little thin so high on my soap box so I will end it. In the end I think Joe will come thru on all the work he has taken on. I hope he is on the mend. Is there a future for mods? I think less and less as time goes by.

[woody]

As many of you may know, I have had at least 12 watches modded by Joe. He has never wronged me. All of his projects have been fantastic. This is in stark comparison with my prior dealings with Base.

Joe has become a friend to me in the last year and I completely trust him.

The one area that he has slipped on in the last couple of months has been his turn-around time and communication. No question about it...he has fallen way behind. That is easy to do when you accept too much work at one time. This is an economic mixed-blessing that ultimately will lead to a loss of future business.

I got an email from him this week in which he stated that he is working on our watches and recovering from his illness. I believe both to be true...why would he lie to a friend?

There is no way that you can please every one of your clients...no matter how good you are and how much you do to remedy the situation (I'm sure Rob will agree.) There are always at least two-sides to every story.

I find it very surprising that Joe didn't offer to fix something that he allegedly messed-up on (i.e. crown guard nick.)

I hope Joe replies to these threads soon- I have definitely not lost hope that my current projects will be completed...I like many others have a few watches that are waiting.

XRT,

The thing that I think that puzzled a lot of the members, me included, is that as a "friend", Joe replied to you this week.....if Joe can reply to you real quick that he is behind and try to catch up with work, then I think at least Joe should have a bit more of courtesy to at least come on the forum to address other members, at least give an update, and say " I am sorry, I am sick, watches will be delivered and I am working on it still" whatever it may be. But the lack of communication is what drives some of the members wild. clarification is what this board needs. Not addressing the forum, but instead addressing it to you seemed strange. After all, if I was coming to your home to install cable, and cannot make it due to some unforeseen circumstances, I would not call your neighbor to say I can't make it, but I would rather call you.......that is what the board members need, clarifications.....and I think it is at least due.....maybe you can contact Joe to come forward since you are his friend?.....

[XRT]

what does leave me with a bad feeling are the members who have been without their watches for 3.... 4.... 6 months.....this.. to me.. is unacceptable.....not a good situation.

Definitely not a good situation. I hope Joe can clarify this soon.

[XRT]

Woody- I agree with you. I did email him yesterday, but I have not yet heard back.

[namor]

A little comment to all that friendship thing here:

johnnyboy is writing that he met ziggy in person.

Thor wrote same thing about me.

Both are moderators and trusted and respected members here.

What are with all the people telling Joe is a friend ? Have you met him ? Did you see his work as he is doing it ?

Have you spent several hours with him talking about different things than watches ? Have you learned each other truly as friends ?

In case of the above examples this IS fact. Neither Ziggy nor me are having any benefit of this "flaming".

This, and all the other issues are just facts - thats the truth and it has to be said.

Don't call anyone "friend" if he isn't. Being nice on the phone and having done 10 watches for you is no friendship...

Believe me, all communication, all mails, all phone calls I did with Joe went perfectly - like real friends.

Till I paid and received this POS.

[marrickvilleboy]

I think we all know that Joe isn't a robot, so he will make mistakes at times. Every watch is different and may have different flaws to them, whether Joe has picked them up initially or not is another thing.

I think its understandable if Joe does good work on 25 watches and not so good on 1 watch (25:1 ratio), but as long as he fixes up the 1 bad one (out of his own money is standard, considering he is charging quite a lot of money). But I think everyone should speak up if they are unhappy with the watch, and get Joe to do it right, it is no use if they just ignore it.

As for the watches that have been unreturned in 4-5-6 months, thats just ridiculous, there is no excuse for that, and the charges should definitely be reduced alot for that time lapse.

I personally have not dealt with Joe as i do my own mods, but reading this does alert me, but i know things like this will happen as long as we are human and there is always going to be human error, but we must reduce the number of human error and correct them when they occur.

[XRT]

Have you spent several hours with him talking about different things than watches ?

Yes...many hours on the phone over the last year. No I haven't met him in person, but I hope to someday.

I'm sorry you have had a bad experience, Namor. I am not defending Joe and I'm not saying that anyone shouldn't voice their concerns or frustrations...on the contrary, the reviews of dealers and modders are what make these forums so educational. I am merely stating my experiences as a counterpoint.

[namor]

I am merely stating my experiences as a counterpoint.

That's absolutely legit. I understand you.

It's necessary to have different views - yours is one and mine is another point of view/experience.

I just want to clear up that there are some personal point of views and on the other side there are HARD FACTS.

Everybody agreed to the point (which is not mine) that there is NO - ABSOLUTELY NO excuse for holding someone elses watch for MONTHS.

Seeing that he is responding to others and making other peoples watches ready and yours is laying around for months is just frustrating. Also seeing this facts - there is NO room for excuses concerning his illness.

To say it again: In the same time he is making other peoples watches and he is mod on the RWI - all that is time consuming - but some people are waiting for their watches many months.

There is no logical explanation for this. And even when he comes out with a story which would make sense - I cannot trust him and believe it.

It's just like I have a garage working on cars - you brought me yours a half year ago and it's still parking around my garage with nothing made, but you hear from several neighbours that their car which they brought to me is done within 2 weeks.

In this situation, what could I tell you to make you believe that I had a reason to behave like this ?

[XRT]

In this situation, what could I tell you to make you believe that I had a reason to behave like this ?

I don't know, but it better be good!

[namor]

I don't know, but it better be good!

Couldn't agree more - nothing to add...

[TomBombadil]

Mods are great if there are things that bug you about the watch that you want updated. If you think Joe is charging too much for a service, then you should not order that service. Its a simple as that. Complaining that Joe is a scammer because he charges $40 to clean your dial just doesn't make sense. You could argue that is a reasonable charge if that was the only thing he was doing to your watch. If I recall, Joe has package deals that offer substancial discounts over everything. Also, IMO, he has better communication than many of our favorite dealers.

But, don't get me wrong. I am not defending Joe. If he messed up your watch you should absolutely send it back and get the issue resolved. And if these are the results he is providing, we should all know that.

namor, I am sorry to hear that your watch was not done right. I hope Joe resolves this issue for you. I know that he has redone watches for customers in the past who were not happy. You should be no different. If you are, then we need to know that.

I would also recommend anyone to have him take pictures of your watch before having him return it to you. It will minimize surprises and decrease chances of having it sent back (which is especially important for someone in a different country.) For example, if you get the crown guards milled, have him take a close up shot of it. If you don't like the results, have him fix it.

To everyone, you should be doing what namor has done. You should report EXACTLY what you think of Joe's (or anyone else's) services once they are completed. Comments like 'the oiling of the band is a waste of money, but the crystal realign looks great' or 'although the crown guard was milled, it still doesn't look anything like an original', or 'everything is perfect, check out my sweet modded watch!' will help this community as a whole dramatically. Pictures are extremely helpful as well.

I applaud namor for stepping up and expressing his feelings. We need to understand people who were happy AND unhappy with services and dealers so that the rest of us can know what we are getting in to before we step up.

I would just prefer the comments to be made in a manner that are productive and informative rather than calling out 'scammer' until all of the facts are known. If 'scammer' is proven, well then, let it rip!

I'm looking forward to the outcome of the unfortunate circumstance.

[Watchwatcher]

wow!!! just saw this. haven't dealt with joe, so i have no comments other than that his price list was more than i would spend on a rep.

i have had a few projects done by The Zigmeister and Tommy, both of whom are reliable and honest. if they run into a problem, they tell you. they stand behind their work; there are some elements of modding a rep which are not predictable. reps are not the precision masterpieces we seem to hope they can be, the materials, threadings workmanship, etc. is prone to problems. consequently, if you are going to hand your watch over for work, you really need someone who isn't afraid to tell you what's happened when things go ugly... we seem to forget, this is a hobby, it's supposed to be fun, we're supposed to learn something (hopefully), even if it just 'how to pry the bezel' off a sub without using extreme force (hmmm, nanuq are you reading?) my 2 cents.

[namor]

...Namor i don't think you would have been flamed had you come forward with your experience sooner...

johnnyboy: perhaps you are right - perhaps not. Nobody can answer this question for sure. Haven't you seen the thread at RWG1 with Ziggy ? How he was treated ?

Come on guys, that is Ziggy. He is respected Member from much earlier than I am.

Can't you understand that I was afraid nobody would have anything to do with me ? It's a bit like this nais-thing (a little joking...).

For all the people thinking I want to make a profit here: read again all my posts - I never stated anywhere that I want some money back - it's too long ago.

I just wanted to tell this to rescue others.

[namor]

Addition:

After receiving the watch and seeing the flaws I asked Joe for a partial refund (don't stated an amount in my mail) - declined.

He just said repeatedly that I should send him the watch back, knowing well I won't.

I couldn't trust him anymore - I had spent more than 600,- USD, I should spent again some money to ship to him, I should have the customs risk - and loose the watch outta my hands not knowing what he would offer me to make it right ???

That's ridiculous.

So I offered to send the watch to palpatine and they could make an agreement each other, you know from pro to pro. This he accepted, but palpatine never saw any parts or a cent from him.

Palpatine will remember this sad story well I'm sure.

Till then the watch is sitting here - I took the bezel insert to another watch temporarily till my ordered new one arrives and I'm waiting for a new glass.

The faulty bracelet was replaced by me too.

I also polished out the scratch at the crown and will overwork the CGs after having a new crystal installed.

I see the point that he had his costs - around 180,- USD for the watch and around 25,- USD for the insert.

Thats more than 400,- USD he charged for workmanship - and this is an budget of more than 400,- USD you can think about refunding to a customer if you did bad work.

If you're just thinking about how many watches he is doing - there is no problem to make one faulty, BUT THEN MAKE IT GOOD FOR YOUR CUSTOMER AGAIN !

Edited May 15, 2006 by namor

[JWR]

I have not dealt with Joe but $40 to dust a dial sounds like a crock.

[davewe]

There must some weird stuff traveling through the ether today. In the last 24 hours on one or more of the boards I have seen: a rehashed (again and again) attack on Elliott; a bizarre attack on The Zigmeister; Klink dropping off RWG; and now this. I have never had work done by Joe and we've only exchanged an email or 2, but I have a couple things to point out, in no necessary order of importance.

1. Joe has come on the boards several times recently to apologize, say that he is ill and he will get back to work as soon as he can. Most guys have to have something falling off to admit they are sick, so it's quite possible that Joe is more ill than he's let on. For you young guys in the audience - it's something to look forward to.

2. I have a real problem with Namor's titling of his original post "This SCAM has to be stopped - NOW !!!" and then the first sentence, "or let more people get into trouble and being scammed." Even if everything that Namor said is correct, referring to someone like Joe as a scammer is way off line. At worst you didn't get the quality of mods you were hoping for.

3. In reading the original post, Namor says that Joe "just said "send it back, I'll see". Knowing well that I'm extremely aware about customs (I paid him extra money for secure shipping firstly to someone else in EU - than to me).

If i interpret this correct, Joe told Namor to send the watch back and Namor didn't want to because of customs issues. So, if Joe said he'd look at the watch and rework it, how is that a scam? Anyone, in any field who does not perform service to your satisfaction is gonna ask you to bring it back and they'll fix it. They are unlikely to refund money. As to the potential customs issues, this is one of the problems inherent in dealing with illegal goods.

4. Like The Zigmeister has said on several occassions, there's a real problem with someone buying an inexpensive Chinese rep and then paying triple the price to have it modded. Something about making a silk shirt out of a sows ear. In the Rolex rep world, unless you have an MBW or WM or DW with 1:1 cases where you can substitute gen parts, no amount of mods is going to give you a perfect sub.

5. The waterproofing issue has been beaten to death on these boards. I don't care if someone water tested the watch or not. Once he shipped it to you and it got bounced around from the U.S. to the E.U, any water testing is irrelevant. I've got a watch repair guy who I've used for years on gen watches who tells me constantly that wearing any watch in water is a crap shoot. Check the genuine boards for the number of people who have ruined genuine submariners in water.

Again, I don't know Joe and haven't used his services but this thread has gone over the top. Let's rethink our views.

Dave

[KenMc]

I could have predicted this hype about joe would explode at some point.

He's just talented enough to keep it going far longer than I thought.

Either I overestimated the people that would seek him out or under estimated Joe.

In the end, spending 2-4 times the going rate for a rep (from our better dealers) is scam territory with all the requirements for caveat emptor.

[namor]

1. Joe has come on the boards several times recently to apologize, say that he is ill and he will get back to work as soon as he can. Most guys have to have something falling off to admit they are sick, so it's quite possible that Joe is more ill than he's let on. For you young guys in the audience - it's something to look forward to.

You seem to not have read carefully - this is not my issue, but from many others. And in the meanwhile he did many other watches for others and is mod at RWI. If he is really ill he couldn't do anything. And if he can do just a few because he is not well - then he has to do the ones waiting for months at first !!!

2. I have a real problem with Namor's titling of his original post "This SCAM has to be stopped - NOW !!!" and then the first sentence, "or let more people get into trouble and being scammed." Even if everything that Namor said is correct, referring to someone like Joe as a scammer is way off line. At worst you didn't get the quality of mods you were hoping for.

I'm sorry - if you're having a "real problem" with this titling either don't read it or I say it again, read it again more carefully. There are many arguments why I choose my words.

3. In reading the original post, Namor says that Joe "just said "send it back, I'll see". Knowing well that I'm extremely aware about customs (I paid him extra money for secure shipping firstly to someone else in EU - than to me).

If i interpret this correct, Joe told Namor to send the watch back and Namor didn't want to because of customs issues. So, if Joe said he'd look at the watch and rework it, how is that a scam? Anyone, in any field who does not perform service to your satisfaction is gonna ask you to bring it back and they'll fix it. They are unlikely to refund money. As to the potential customs issues, this is one of the problems inherent in dealing with illegal goods.

Again, please read my posts on page 4 - there I explain more detailed why I didn't sent back the watch.

Also I wrote that Joe AGREED to another solution: sending the watch to palpatine. But palpatine never saw any money or parts...

4. Like Ziggy has said on several occassions, there's a real problem with someone buying an inexpensive Chinese rep and then paying triple the price to have it modded. Something about making a silk shirt out of a sows ear. In the Rolex rep world, unless you have an MBW or WM or DW with 1:1 cases where you can substitute gen parts, no amount of mods is going to give you a perfect sub.

Knowing that well I like many mods to have done - even if the result isn't a "perfect Sub" (which you only can get from Rol*x). It my make no sense to you - but you have to respect that point of view.

5. The waterproofing issue has been beaten to death on these boards. I don't care if someone water tested the watch or not. Once he shipped it to you and it got bounced around from the U.S. to the E.U, any water testing is irrelevant. I've got a watch repair guy who I've used for years on gen watches who tells me constantly that wearing any watch in water is a crap shoot. Check the genuine boards for the number of people who have ruined genuine submariners in water.

Fully agree with you - but again I have to say: read again. I didn't want to have a diving watch - but this watch sucked even little drops of water immediately into the watch. As I said, my watchsmith measured the crystal - it was slightly too small in diameter. This is nothing that happens through travelling...

Again, I don't know Joe and haven't used his services but this thread has gone over the top. Let's rethink our views.

Dave

Yes Dave, rethink your view - here are the facts, nothing more.

I had many months to think about it - others too.

[Repmaniac]

This should be posted in RWI too if the Admin and the Mods will allow it. Joe is a moderator in RWI and I am sure he peep in sometime.

We're aware of it.

[TJGladeRaider]

One more point:

Just contact Ms.King and send this watch back to get another. ALL of our Dealers offer us this service.

And for him it would have been more than easy - buying so many quantities, I'm sure Ms.King would have sent him one without wanting the faulty back...

I'd not even bring Ms. King into this. I have bought a lot of watches from her, and had very few problems. On those rare occasions when there was a problem, she dealt with it right away with no nonsense.

I feel comfortable saying that the defects you pictured in that watch did not come from Ms. King. No way does she send out crap like that.

Bill

[gpuck]

Holy [censored] this is Crasy!! I just read all 4 pages and I find it strange that only 2 people have anything negative to say about Joe. I don't know him or have ever had any mods done by him but it seems to me that if this where a common problem there would have been more people than umm 1 person saying they got a shitty watch back from him. Just seems odd to me thats all.

I now what it is like to get "[censored]" for your money. I own one of the coveted "NOT" RWG Abomination watches that worked for exactly 11hrs and has not ticked since! We all know how that story ended or did it I can't keep it straight anymore........

Anyway I hope everyone gets their watches back in working order and if anyone would like to try and fix my Abomination I would really appreciate it! It is a great looking watch on the wrist!!

Gpuck