Watches of War

[Desuetude]

I haven't found that to be the case in life.

Haven't you seen people who are tough as nails, but who are boasts, bullies, and just plain...well, assholes?

Think of any TOP professional athlete (not the average one, like Beckham), and I can only think of Sir Don Bradman, Jack Niklaus, and Wayne Gretzky, who are humble people. The rest, assholes.

Lance Armstrong. A-hole.

Michael Jordan. A-hole.

Tiger Woods. A-hole.

The same is true of businessmen (indeed, especially businessmen), and professionals. There are rare exceptions, like my own father, and probably a few on this forum, but I've noticed that the most aggressive men go ahead.

And humility and aggression rarely go hand-in-hand, IMHO.

EDIT: To make this a little "on-topic" given the thread, let me just say that naval aviators, navigators, pilots, etc. HAVE to be arrogant. Imagine doing what they do, hurtling thousands of miles into the atmosphere, plastering one's vital organs against one's ribcage, dropping bombs, sniping other planes, and NOT be arrogant. It's impossible. Or at least, highly unlikely.

BTW, my friend's husband's brother was in the NASA astronaut programme. OMG, major major a-hole. Astronauts must be like pilots, squared.

No disrespect, but I'm not going to validate the success of an athlete based on the fact that they're an A-hole. They built their success on their own determination to win, whether or not they're a d*ck about it is their own problem. What I'm saying is that the truly successful do not feel a need to BRAG about their achievements. I will never go around gloating to others about my success in the industry I'm in. That kind of behavior is not only unbecoming, it demonstrates to others that you posses a character flaw, which they may see as weakness. I see it as compensation for feelings of underachievement. In business, I am an "iron fist in the golden glove" (no, i did not mean velvet), which my father and mother both hammered into me at a very young age. Agressiveness and grace. It's served me quite well; it commands uncompromised respect, I.E respect without resentment. Do I go around to other people who may not know me and tell them about how amazing (or not, LOL) I am? Never. I feel no need to. I let my reputation do the talking.

[predfan2001]

I'm a big fan of the military look watches

Hamilton Field Khaki XL

Chase Durer Bomber Command

Submariner 5517

And my attempt to give my UPO a military look

[FxrAndy]

Now how about a rep like that noobi with the member number. I would be up for one of those!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Victoria]

No disrespect, but I'm not going to validate the success of an athlete based on the fact that they're an A-hole. They built their success on their own determination to win, whether or not they're a d*ck about it is their own problem.

Agreed 100%. The point I was making is that the most elite people, I used athletes as an example, can be incredible a-holes.

It goes without saying that I myself find that discomfitting. I don't believe in the fairy tales of my childhood, where all the good characters have a fine life, and the bad ones die a cruel, horrible, but fitting end. I'm more mature than that.

But perhaps a tiny part of me is aghast at how unbearable people are often the ones who most succeed in life. That they lead a life of inner turmoil, driven on perhaps by demons which we will never be aware, seems poor "recompense" for their outward behaviour.

What I'm saying is that the truly successful do not feel a need to BRAG about their achievements.

You respectfully disagreed with me, Defacto, but I am going to have to do the same with you.

That has not been my experience in all the elite environments I have lived in, and with the TOP people I've observed.

It could well be my bad luck meeting the wrong types, but for every Nelson Mandela I have met (kind, noble, transcending time and place, and all human pettiness), I have met a Gordon Brown, bitter, chip-on-shoulder numpty, and a braggart to boot.

(How did I meet this people? It's easy. It's to do with my University background. That's all I'll reveal here)

Again, I know what you are saying, of course I follow the exact same precepts in life that you do, "iron fist in golden glove" -- LOVE IT! BTW.

Successful people come in all kinds. I like to think I am successful. You are too, by the sounds of it. My point was that THE MOST successful people are not ashamed of tooting their own horn, and riding roughshod over others in the process.

What say you?

[TeeJay]

Successful people come in all kinds. I like to think I am successful. You are too, by the sounds of it. My point was that THE MOST successful people are not ashamed of tooting their own horn, and riding roughshod over others in the process.

What say you?

I think it is more to do with the personality type, rather than the fact they are successfull. If someone is a chickenshit, emotionally immature and insecure bully, then all their success just goes to their heads, inflates their egos, and makes them think that that that gives them carte blanche to act like a [censored]. (ie gangsta rappers who flash their bling at the camera in their shitty videos) People who have a more mature attitude, take the trappings of success in their stride and don't flash it about or use it to belittle and beat down others. It's a bit like the comment Lanikai and I were making before about 'Old Money' vs 'Nouveu Riche'. One flaunts it in a distasteful way, the other is more discrete.

[Edit to add]

Success is the symptom, not the disease...

Edited September 23, 2007 by TeeJay

[Desuetude]

You respectfully disagreed with me, Defacto, but I am going to have to do the same with you.

That has not been my experience in all the elite environments I have lived in, and with the TOP people I've observed.

It could well be my bad luck meeting the wrong types, but for every Nelson Mandela I have met (kind, noble, transcending time and place, and all human pettiness), I have met a Gordon Brown, bitter, chip-on-shoulder numpty, and a braggart to boot.

(How did I meet this people? It's easy. It's to do with my University background. That's all I'll reveal here)

Again, I know what you are saying, of course I follow the exact same precepts in life that you do, "iron fist in golden glove" -- LOVE IT! BTW.

Successful people come in all kinds. I like to think I am successful. You are too, by the sounds of it. My point was that THE MOST successful people are not ashamed of tooting their own horn, and riding roughshod over others in the process.

What say you?

Without divulging information not fit for a public forum, here is my rebuttal. I'm not saying that every last man at the top is a humble saint. For any man to be driven to such heights, he must have an ego. It has been my experience that for many who have amassed wealth and accomplishments matched only by a handful of others, beating their chest is the least of their priorities. Do they feel embarassed about their accomplishments? Hardly, they are proud that they have been so fortunate. Do they feel a need to run amok, beating their chests? In a word...no.

Here's an example...three weekends ago, when I was at a polo match being sponsored by a good family friend, one who happens to be a very successful individual in the industry I work in. I was introduced to an individual who happens to be a mid level guy at a 3rd tier company in the industry. He was at the match with his wife, who is the daughter of a well known, very successful local businessman who I know through another hobby. After becoming irked by this individual's relentless attempts to belittle me by bragging about his business "achievements" (which were one stop short of laughable, btw), I politely excused myself, and proceeded to return to my seat next to my family friend, and resume the pleasant conversation that we had been having. Ten minutes later, the braggart returns, and after giving me a condescending greeting with an aroma of sleaziness, he zeros in on my friend, and was so rude that he made the mistake of failing to ask his name...he only mentioned his own after asking my friend a few questions that he thought would've been rhetorical. His statement that iced the cake would have been like an Air King owner belittling another man because he thinks he can't afford a rolex...when the other man happens to be wearing a Patek 5101P. Instead of decimating his ego in front of an entire audience, he simply says "Nice Rolex", and nothing more. Although this was a metaphor for the actual statement the braggart made and the exchange that followed, I think you get the point. My friend could've beaten his chest, and as a captain of industry, he would have every right to. Instead, he was graceful, acknowledged the braggart, and resumed his conversation with me. He had his acquired 5101P on, and his alloy-bodied 1960 Ferrari 250 SWB in the parking lot...needless to say, he is pretty secure. Why bother belittling the braggart? The people in the industries that I know would have done the same. Most people in his shoes follow my mother's advice, which is, "if the other guy is so low that he feels he needs to (attack, belittle, etc) you, why stoop to his level? You're the one up top."

[Victoria]

Most people in his shoes follow my mother's advice, which is, "if the other guy is so low that he feels he needs to (attack, belittle, etc) you, why stoop to his level? You're the one up top."

*cringe*

Was I the only one who winced reading this? Why do people act like this, really?

Well, Defacto, thanks for your apposite anecdote.

As you know, the season is beginning in Palm Beach, and yet again, I shall be flung amongst these types of high-achievers, not all of them American either -- there are boku foreigners in power in that area, for every Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh and Anthony Shriver which lives there.

We'll see who and how I can put in their place, as elegantly as your chum did.

To bring this a little back on topic, my paternal grandfather was a WWII vet, like so many of our grandpas here were.

Only he had the rare honour of having served under two Scots, two memorable soldiers of the highest renown, as part of the General Staff, both as a subaltern in WWI, and later as a colonel in WWII.

One, General Sir Douglas Haig, wearing his wristwatch (in 1916, unusual for a man):

The other, Field Marshal Lord Montgomery, wearing his wristwatch (looks plain Jane to me):

The former was the ultimate commander of the BEF -- and according to my granddad, a more gentle, chivalrous gentleman you cannot have imagined. He didn't stand on ceremony, and projected a soft but commanding aura about him.

The latter was a grade-A a-hole of the highest category. His vanity, his arrogance, his cruelty towards his subordinates was acute. When I asked, all my grandfather could muster without becoming apoplectic was:

"He was a bloody cheat at tennis" (snort)

And real gentlemen don't cheat, of course.

Guess which one of the two has gone down the history pages as a famous hero? Guess which one was sacked, and called an incompetent?

Life isn't fair, I know. But talent shouldn't be reason enough for life to reward such people.

Ah well.

[Desuetude]

Such is life, Lady V...I forget who said this one, but it went something to the effect of, "I'd rather be scorned by history and loved by those who remembered me." History may not be fair, but look at the reaction of your Grandfather...I'm sure that being Lord Montgomery was a very lonely proposition.

Alas, the WPB that I am familiar with is the WPB that you will shortly be confronted with...those sunbirds can be rough!

[Guest TTK]

What would make you think that Montgomery was Scottish......?

[Virgil Hilts]

F-15's and F-16's are USAF. The Navy flies F/A-18's. The F-14 has been retired from service since 2006.

[abakan]

I personally like these old watches. They stand at the origin of all military style looking watches IMO.

Couldn't find this picture for a while, but, finally, here you go.

[POTR]

Sorry V,

Monty was born in London, although his father came from Ireland and he considered himself Irish.

I keeping with the general theory, he pulled himself up by his own bootstraps, gallant and uncompromising during the first world war, and distinguished himself further with his restraint during the "Irish rebellion" (his heritage a probable factor here), which led to his other earlier leadership positions in other uprisings. Although his ever growing arrogance was a bit much for most of his superiors, in keeping with the theory, he was steadily promoted or assigned positions above his grade. Against the theory, his "a--holitude" ended up costing him in the end. His views and general attitude generated much negative publicity after he retired, and this kept him from being elevated to Earl, which would have been a mighty fine lifetime achievement for the black sheep scion of a poor Irish bishop.

[Victoria]

May I say how impressed I have been by the public and private response via PMs, to this thread. It's garnered the most replies of any thread I've started.

I see it's touched an interesting nerve with so many, and I'm very glad.

Abakan, thanks for searching for that photo! I love them all, but I think that bottom row, first "Omega" watch is my fave. Vintage watches that can be worn today, are the best -- sheer timelessness (ironically enough).

[Victoria]

Sorry V,

Monty was born in London, although his father came from Ireland and he considered himself Irish.

Blimey, just Googled, and you're right! Wherever did I come up with him being Scots? Maybe the fact that my grandfather married a Scotswoman, and was partial to the people, and always mentioned "Dougie" and "Monty" together somehow melded the two in my mind.

Sorry about that, and thanks for the correction!

EDIT: Oh, maybe the name. Montgomery sounded Scots to my ears. My own surname is Norman-Irish, BTW, though I haven't a drop of Irish in me.

I keeping with the general theory, he pulled himself up by his own bootstraps, gallant and uncompromising during the first world war, and distinguished himself further with his restraint during the "Irish rebellion" (his heritage a probable factor here), which led to his other earlier leadership positions in other uprisings. Although his ever growing arrogance was a bit much for most of his superiors, in keeping with the theory, he was steadily promoted or assigned positions above his grade. Against the theory, his "a--holitude" ended up costing him in the end. His views and general attitude generated much negative publicity after he retired, and this kept him from being elevated to Earl, which would have been a mighty fine lifetime achievement for the black sheep scion of a poor Irish bishop.

There's always a reason, Phantom.

Take Lord Mountbatten of Burma -- insufferably arrogant man (and a horrible snob).

He was Queen Victoria's great-grandson, so the pulling up by the bootstraps sccenario doesn't apply.

But his arrogance can date from the chip he carried on his shoulder, due to the shabby treatment doled out to his German-born father, who was sacked as First Sea Lord in WWI. Interestingly, he was sacked by none other than Winston Churchill himself, in a blatantly politically-expedient move, which cost Churchill A LOT of support within the Royal Family until 1939.

So Lord Mountbatten made sure EVERYTHING he did was a kind of reflection on his father's legacy, though he wasn't coy about tooting his own horn, either.

Both Field Marshal Montgomery and Lord Mountbatten went far, really far in their careers, for various reasons. Both were immensely talented men.

And both were major a-holes.

Again, just one more example of such people getting more glory than perhaps their attitudes deserve (in a perfect world).

EDIT: Lord Mountbatten in Burma, wearing a watch his great-nephew, the Prince of Wales, wears today.

[Seadweller4000]

No one mentioned the Einsatzzeitmesser from Sinn?

[Guest Carl]

Ms. Barrett-

Thanks for posting the Mountbatten thing.

I wouldn't quite put him in the same a-hole category as Monty, but we can all agree to disagree at times.

"Mountbatten" was a hurried anglicized version of their original German name of Battenberg which was found suddenly offensive in 1914. As a matter of fact, he had a reputation of being particularly unarrogant in military situations. After being torpedoed, the destroyer which he commanded sank, and after he and few survivors reached the surface, he looked around and uttered one of his most famous lines: "Well, here we all are. The scum always rises to the top."

Carl

[Victoria]

I wouldn't quite put him in the same a-hole category as Monty, but we can all agree to disagree at times.

"Mountbatten" was a hurried anglicized version of their original German name of Battenberg which was found suddenly offensive in 1914. As a matter of fact, he had a reputation of being particularly unarrogant in military situations. After being torpedoed, the destroyer which he commanded sank, and after he and few survivors reached the surface, he looked around and uttered one of his most famous lines: "Well, here we all are. The scum always rises to the top."

I would agree with you, for the fact that he had a very light comedic touch, had much esprit and intelligence.

In fact, some of his reputation for being arrogant (though true), was also based on the fact that he was "flash". And the British hate flash, especially the upper-classes.

They resented how he would be commanding his latest destroyer, and have his rich wife (Edwina Mountbatten) follow behind the ship in their mega-luxurious yacht. LOL. I laugh just thinking about that.

He was also extremely popular (he said) amongst the ratings, rather than the officers, because "them below" liked serving under men with handles -- as we call aristocrats with titles. It added a bit of cach

[Guest Carl]

OK, thanks to Nanuq we are back on topic.

That is a very special watch, Nanuq, and I feel that it could not be in better hands than yours.

The very oldest subs don't seem to be flashy or popular but I like them a lot. Reps are hard to find but here is my latest from Jay at Silix, a "close" 5510:

Too shiny and new but I will age it a bit. I have more on the way and I think that if we buy a few, more new "old" stuff might appear.

Carl

[eunomians]

Military watches are my FAVORITE pastime.

Yes, I did yell "FAVORITE".

I love them, I love them, I love them.

I started off this hobby by solely collecting them, and I continue to collect them and most anything that I've bought that is new (not vintage) is military-inspired. Black dials only. That's how I do it.

One of my faves:

Breguet Type XX

I still wear this 42mm diameter baby often! Look at the airplane propellor!!

Sheesh!!! What a gorgeous toolwatch!

Uhhhh...

How about some super accurate Accutron action? I wear this pilot's watch often.

42mm Pilot watch. Yup, an Art Deco masterpiece. At least once a week I've been wearing this for 7+ years.

Need I even mention Juan Trippe's gem of the Jet Age? How many Pan Am pilots flew wearing this? How many military pilots and commerical pilots flew with this? Chuck Yeager broke the speed of sound with this!!!

How about some more contemporary issued watches!

Or how about a Teutonic classic that only a select few of the finest soldiers on earth wore?

When dropping payloads in WWII, someone, in a state of panic, checked the time with this... I wear this one often, too. Nice silver plated case.

We all know that Raquel Welch made this famous. But did she really? Probably not since there were many brave test pilots who tested the boundaries with this one:

Feel like diving? Feel like joining the ranks? If so, you might've picked this one. At least, a non-modified version. This is the #1 most used military watch in the world. Of course, you have to supply it.

WWI Trench Warfare anybody?

Lucky Germans and their cool issued watches:

Anybody care to explore Greenland with the British Ministry Of Defence? Ordinance WWW style???

Scary Germans and their navigational mirror reverse dials. Scary Waffen ".." dial.

South African Issue. Note the coolest dial layout EVER for Lemania 5100:

Romantic Officer nights with a special lady by the fire...

NATO Issue Pilot Chronograph. Yes, the infamous Anondized Beauty! The real deal! And look closely: Surprise! Lemania 5100!

Last but certainly not least... When fightin' the Contras...

[Victoria]

Oh, my. That is spectacular!!!

For the past 10 minutes, since I clicked on the thread, I've been looking at Euno's photos. Just phenomenal...you're lucky EUNO. A military watch AND a Breguet.

Rarely am I jealous. I am jealous now!

@Eunomians: Did I ever tell you that I thought you were a Yukio Mishima type -- err, that is a Imperial Japanese military enthusiast? I honestly thought, when I first joined, that you were Japanese (in Japan), who had a love of the quasi-samurai ethic!

[Victoria]

I still wear this 42mm diameter baby often! Look at the airplane propellor!!

42mm Pilot watch. Yup, an Art Deco masterpiece. At least once a week I've been wearing this for 7+ years.

:wub:

Scary Germans and their navigational mirror reverse dials. Scary Waffen ".." dial.

But something about it draws one...I hate how Fascists have the most alluring uniforms and symbols (consciously, of course).

I am also reminded of Sssurfer calling people "fascist enthusiasts" in the case of that horrid new Panerai-type watch. Well, I'm afraid I may qualify, because I collect WWII German memoribilia (don't worry, I understand what you meant, Sssurfer!).

Some of that attitude is present in Bernard-Henry Levy's book on exploring the US, in the footsteps of Alexis de Toqueville, "American Vertigo".

He went to a military memoribilia convention, you know the kind of thing (not very common in Europe, as you can imagine, but VERY common in the US and Canada), and walked away disgusted.

Well, everything he saw in America disgusted him, but this one really did.

He wondered out loud if the people who collect WWII German military watches, etc., secretly had a yen to put them on?

I presume he meant "do the funny walk", and give Hitlergrus, whilst wearing their collectibles...oh boy.

Some people just will never understand.

[Guest Carl]

Eunomians:

You have an awesome collection and thanks for posting and sharing on this already memorable thread started by Ms. Barrett.

You have moved it to an even higher plane.

Carl

[Guest Carl]

"Some of that attitude is present in Bernard-Henry Levy's book on exploring the US, in the footsteps of Alexis de Toqueville, "American Vertigo"."

Well, I would never put Levy in the same category as de Toqueville. He avoided the footsteps. Many modern Europeans would be astounded and shocked at the freedom of expression in the United States and would read it all as some sort of troubling civic illness when in fact the same sort of feelings exist in their own nations but are conveniently suppressed by the general government and the press, as being the wish of the majority.

"I presume he meant "do the funny walk", and give Hitlergrus, whilst wearing their collectibles...oh boy."

This is unfortunately more of a Monty Python gag thing today and disgusting, particularly to today's Germans, who have had more than enough of it, and don't deserve any of it. We still seem to see it when Manchester United gets a visit from Carl Zeiss Jena or some other German team (don't know if I have the leagues right but hope you get the point).

Collecting historic memorabilia can be a constructive act and we must remember that as recently as this week we have people on the international stage who deny some of the most tragic and horrible acts of the twentieth century. Military watch collectors are not part of the problem, but more a part of the solution.

Carl out.

[Mark Eleven]

Probably the cheapest "war watches" around....

[Seadweller4000]

My goodness. I've never seen a collection of mil-spec watches like that!

Tell me more about this one?

That is the famous Einsatzzeitmesser 1 (EZM 1), equipped with a Lemania 5100 (using a central stop-hand) and not produced any more. It is made of Titanium and designed for (german) special forces.

With the dial shown above (wings with "ZTZ" on top at 6), it was officially supplied to the technical unit of the border police (Zentrale Technikgruppe Zoll). It is limited to 10 pieces in that design.