Traveling to the Middle East

[brep]

I am going to be going to the Middle East on business in a bit and wondered what the disposition was toward reps. Obviously there is a culture difference and I wanted to make sure that I would not be committing a serious social faux pas.

Any thoughts/experiences?

-B

[Victoria]

I am going to be going to the Middle East on business in a bit and wondered what the disposition was toward reps. Obviously there is a culture difference and I wanted to make sure that I would not be committing a serious social faux pas.

I wouldn't do it, Brep. Never been, but my parents have many times. This is the land of Lime green Lamborghinis, and wall-to-wall rose-gold AP ROOs. The money there is REAL, and in your face at all times.

Poseurs? Well, perhaps you can ask a devout Muslim about the shar'ia's Laws concerning theft...

OTOH, so many of these rep watches are hocked by Sudanese, Moroccans, etc. in many countries. In Turkey, you can't move for the cheapo Rolex knock-offs in the souk.

I too await a more pertinent reply than mine. I would be interested to see what they say.

[TeeJay]

I wouldn't do it, Brep. Never been, but my parents have many times. This is the land of Lime green Lamborghinis, and wall-to-wall rose-gold AP ROOs. The money there is REAL, and in your face at all times.

Poseurs? Well, perhaps you can ask a devout Muslim about the shar'ia's Laws concerning theft...

OTOH, so many of these rep watches are hocked by Sudanese, Moroccans, etc. in many countries. In Turkey, you can't move for the cheapo Rolex knock-offs in the souk.

I too await a more pertinent reply than mine. I would be interested to see what they say.

For something to be considered theft, it must be taken from a public place, there must be witnesses, and it must not be motivated by hunger or malice (ie forced to do it) Of course, the punishment for theft is rather severe by Western standards, but, then again, maybe if such punishments were carried out here, maybe our 'career criminals' would think twice about risking an appendage

That said, I quite agree, the money there is real. That's not to say that the folks have good taste (lime green lambos )

[Logan]

One watch on your wrist is hardly going to attract any attention, but don't take a box of them along, even for your own use. Thats asking for trouble in any customs hall in any country.

[lanikai]

taking something that does not belong to you will get your hand removed .. adultery will get your head taken off....

I worked for a company that sent some workers there and they witnessed this right in public view.. also it used to be frowned on to consume alcohol .. lucky for me I don't drink but my friends had a hard time .. they love their beer..

wouldn't take a chance on anything .. governed by religious laws.. nuff said

[Dizzy]

yeah theres a lot of dough there thats for sure. i know there have been big problems with scammers selling replica ceramic HBB's as genuine there... I guess it depends what you are wearing when you go there.. If you had a Breitling Steel fish then you are prob ok. I wore my old explorer II when i went to costa rica only because i didnt care if i lost it or not. I wasnt concerned about getting robbed becasue it was a poor fake. I wouldnt want to wear a rep to Italy though as apparently its illegal just to own them there. search google and find out laws for counterfeit good there.

[tech]

It really depends on where you are going in the middle east....

Dubai? Doha? Muscat? Bahrain? Tons of reps in those locations and no one except maybe some business colleagues will notice....also, depends on the reason for your visit. Are you going to be sitting around a board room with locals? A rep will make you look bad because money is stooooopidly oozing around the gulf...

18 year-olds don't even have their driver's permits yet and they have AMG Benzes and Bentleys waiting for them in the parking hangar...

You will see lots of expats in these locales with both real and reps on their wrists...just depends on what circle you run in....

bottom line...what is the purpose of your visit? If you're going to be dealing with the locals, do you really want to get yourself labeled and possibly have your business dealing held in low regard....

If you do decide to bring them into the area...I wouldn't worry about customs....in or out....your only problem might be on the way into the US...but then again...depends on which port city you are entering...

cheers

[Victoria]

bottom line...what is the purpose of your visit? If you're going to be dealing with the locals, do you really want to get yourself labeled and possibly have your business dealing held in low regard...

Hit. Nail. Head.

If it's for pleasure, knock yourself out. If it's for business, think of going to the Middle East as if you were going to an AD -- with a girlfriend who doesn't know you buy reps.

The last thing you want to be doing, is taking your rep to an AD if there's the slightest chance you'll be called out in front of your girlfriend.

Sleazeball-City.

(If you're lying about that, what else are you lying about or failing to mention? Why open up this moral can of worms?)

[brep]

Thanks for the input folks - going on business and will be sitting around big tables with lots of folks - I guess I'll take a gen for those meetings. I was interested in taking a rep due to the GMT functionality, but I may think twice. Most of my reps are pretty good - would be difficult to get called on, better safe than sorry though...

Thanks,

-B

[rkdk]

take a gen, or a fool proof rep. stick with ss, or two tone, since they are all gonna be wearing gold.

iwc, pam, maybe a big bang would work.

Rich, corporate arabs never waste time on checking out reps. They simply dont care. After all they do have enough money. ive dealt with them a lot, and being in a prestiguous enviroment, you never suspect people wearing reps. its not even on their radar.

that being said. if you sport a cheap quartz bling rep, theyll spot that straight away. I guess, that goes without saying:-)

good luck with it

[Viennawatch]

I've lived in the Middle East for about 19 years of my life. Iraq, Jordan, Egypt and Dubai.

This really depends where you are traveling in the ME. If you are going to Gulf countries, in other words, Bahrain, UAE, Oman, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Qatar, Kuwait, there will be a LOT of rich people there who will have super expensive watches, so if you sport a Panerai or a Rollie Rep, it should be totally okay. You may get some glances, you are most likely to run into someone knowing more about watches than someone in the rest of the ME. Most of these rich folks will be too busy admiring their own $100,000 Patek Phillip. And since these countries are rather affluent, you needn't worry about anyone giving you any odd looks because you are wearing a PAM or Rollie. They probably won't bother you.

Other ME countries, well sadly, but truthfully, the majority of people there can't afford luxury watches, nor are there many shops that sell luxury watches. For example in Cairo, the only places you will really get luxury watches are at international hotels or at the airport. So most people probably won't know the difference between a Flik Flak or a Rolex. However the Souk, Khan El-Khalili does have guys walking around carrying 20 to 30 reps for sale. However they are ABSOLUTE crap. About one and a half years ago, I was in Cairo visiting my parents when they were still living there and I had gone to the Souk with a friend to grab a shisha when this rep seller came along and tried to sell me his cheap knock offs, he did notice my modded Sub and was like, "Oh you have real real Rolex sir, I give you all my watch for your watch..." I smiled... and said no thank you... Now if they had all been Noobmariners, maybe I'd have considered it! Because my Sub is quite outdated in comparison to Noobmariners.

This is not saying the ME people are all ignorant, no no, but its safe to say that the majority will not care or bother to look twice at your wrist. Unless you are dealing with real watch aficionados and there are surely enough of those around wherever you go to.

Anyways have a nice trip to the ME and hope the culture shock doesn't hit you too hard!

Regards,

VW

Edited October 24, 2007 by Viennawatch

[TeeJay]

taking something that does not belong to you will get your hand removed .. adultery will get your head taken off....

I worked for a company that sent some workers there and they witnessed this right in public view.. also it used to be frowned on to consume alcohol .. lucky for me I don't drink but my friends had a hard time .. they love their beer..

wouldn't take a chance on anything .. governed by religious laws.. nuff said

Actually, it'll get you a flogging, or a stoning (both potentially fatal) but nothing as spectacular as a decapitation

There can be only one!

Hit. Nail. Head.

If it's for pleasure, knock yourself out. If it's for business, think of going to the Middle East as if you were going to an AD -- with a girlfriend who doesn't know you buy reps.

The last thing you want to be doing, is taking your rep to an AD if there's the slightest chance you'll be called out in front of your girlfriend.

Sleazeball-City.

(If you're lying about that, what else are you lying about or failing to mention? Why open up this moral can of worms?)

Couldn't've said it better myself

[Victoria]

Actually, it'll get you a flogging, or a stoning (both potentially fatal) but nothing as spectacular as a decapitation

Quick, hopefully innocuous joke about this. Overheard on Radio Scotland during an international match:

"You will get stoned in the Middle East if you commit adultery, whereas in the West you get stoned to commit adultery."

[hambone]

Don't even worry about wearing a rep to the mideast. That would be the least of your worries. Just refrain from running around yelling "Allah Blows Goats". This will cause consternation among the jihadists.

[TeeJay]

Don't even worry about wearing a rep to the mideast. That would be the least of your worries. Just refrain from running around yelling "Allah Blows Goats". This will cause consternation among the jihadists.

Someone wouldn't have to be an extremist to find that comment offensive...

[hambone]

You know what I find offensive Teejay? I find it offensive that not one, not two, but three of my closest friends were murdered in the World Trade Center towers by Musilm fanatic bastards on September 11, 2001. Murdering bastards is what they were and always will be. I am also offended that people of the Muslim faith do not speak up more and do more, and they could if they wished to,do a hell of a lot more to stop the cruelty and murder carried on in the name of thier "Allah" It is beyond despicable the atrocities these murderers carry out daily and the rest of the Muslim world sits by and does nothing. So if someone is offended that I might joke and say that "Allah blows goats" is something to avoid saying in the mideast, let me add that they should also include that they should not say "Allah blows cows, dogs, pigs, rabbits and werewolves". If that is offensive,then TFB. The murder of my friends is more offensive, and this is how I deal with it.

[Victoria]

The murder of my friends is more offensive, and this is how I deal with it.

I'll out myself and say I have a family member by marriage who died in the 9/11 attacks. But just as if someone were to say something nasty about Jesus Christ, or Christians in general, I'd find that horribly offensive too, and I'd fall on them like a tonne of bricks publicly. Far more than TeeJay's innocuous comments, which in effect, I agreed with.

I am a fellow sufferer, Hambone, so please excuse me for saying what I did.

I would hug you now if I could, because I am not without disgust in my heart. But perhaps it's wiser to keep these things to ourselves on a rep watch forum.

[Corgi]

You know what I find offensive Teejay? I find it offensive that not one, not two, but three of my closest friends were murdered in the World Trade Center towers by Musilm fanatic bastards on September 11, 2001. Murdering bastards is what they were and always will be. I am also offended that people of the Muslim faith do not speak up more and do more, and they could if they wished to,do a hell of a lot more to stop the cruelty and murder carried on in the name of thier "Allah" It is beyond despicable the atrocities these murderers carry out daily and the rest of the Muslim world sits by and does nothing. So if someone is offended that I might joke and say that "Allah blows goats" is something to avoid saying in the mideast, let me add that they should also include that they should not say "Allah blows cows, dogs, pigs, rabbits and werewolves". If that is offensive,then TFB. The murder of my friends is more offensive, and this is how I deal with it.

I completely agree with you. Thank Goodness for countries of freedom like America and Israel that fight for justice and peace...!!!!

[rkdk]

You know what I find offensive Teejay? I find it offensive that not one, not two, but three of my closest friends were murdered in the World Trade Center towers by Musilm fanatic bastards on September 11, 2001. Murdering bastards is what they were and always will be. I am also offended that people of the Muslim faith do not speak up more and do more, and they could if they wished to,do a hell of a lot more to stop the cruelty and murder carried on in the name of thier "Allah" It is beyond despicable the atrocities these murderers carry out daily and the rest of the Muslim world sits by and does nothing. So if someone is offended that I might joke and say that "Allah blows goats" is something to avoid saying in the mideast, let me add that they should also include that they should not say "Allah blows cows, dogs, pigs, rabbits and werewolves". If that is offensive,then TFB. The murder of my friends is more offensive, and this is how I deal with it.

You said it yourself. Your friends were murdered by extremists, and not by islam in general. Why should 1,2 billion people act on the stupidity of a few fanatics. The tragedy of 9/11 has widely been condemned by the muslim world, though this rarley gets any media attention.

Dont get me wrong. My deepest condolances to you, and your friends families. 9/11 is probably the worst tragedy ill ever witness (i hope), but there is no reason to slay a religion on the acts of few.

We must never forget how many people were murdered in the name of christ.

Att: Corgi: The actions of usa and israel, have been discussed high and low over here in europe. Somehow, i doubt that "freedom" is the main agenda.

[TeeJay]

You know what I find offensive Teejay? I find it offensive that not one, not two, but three of my closest friends were murdered in the World Trade Center towers by Musilm fanatic bastards on September 11, 2001. Murdering bastards is what they were and always will be. I am also offended that people of the Muslim faith do not speak up more and do more, and they could if they wished to,do a hell of a lot more to stop the cruelty and murder carried on in the name of thier "Allah" It is beyond despicable the atrocities these murderers carry out daily and the rest of the Muslim world sits by and does nothing. So if someone is offended that I might joke and say that "Allah blows goats" is something to avoid saying in the mideast, let me add that they should also include that they should not say "Allah blows cows, dogs, pigs, rabbits and werewolves". If that is offensive,then TFB. The murder of my friends is more offensive, and this is how I deal with it.

Sorry for the delay...

I also had a friend killed in the WTC, I have a cousin who would have been killed had his business meeting not been called off, and I have a friend whos aunt was on one of the planes, so don't think you have a monopoly on grief on that issue, and don't inflict the bigotry of your 'coping strategies' on others.

If you seriously think that the fanatic scum who carried out those attacks represent the vast majority of Muslims, or are acting in a way consistent with Islam, then frankly, you are an ignorant, bigoted fool.

There are plenty of members of the Muslim Community who speak up against terrorist attrocities. What you must remember is that in some countries, like Iraq, the people there do not have the freedom of speech to speak up, for fear of reprisals. Also, the reason behind the attacks has virtually nothing to do with an 'Islamic Crusade' against the West, but people in a region of the world getting [censored] off by a bunch of Western Politicos telling them how to run things.

I was not so much offended by the comment you made about Allah, but your insinuation that all Muslims are extremist fanatics. Try reading the Qur'an, you might learn something.

Out of curiousity, are you a religious man? I recall you are married, was that a civil or religious ceremony? I'm asking purely out of idle curiousity.

[Edit for SPAG]

Edited October 28, 2007 by TeeJay

[Victoria]

If you seriously think that the fanatic scum who carried out those attacks represent the vast majority of Muslims, or are acting in a way consistent with Islam, then frankly, you are an ignorant, bigoted fool.

Unfortunately, there is such a thing as jihad in Islam, and it is invoked in the name of Allah, Mohammed (PBUH) and Muslims.

If the Pope himself, whom I revere, were to tell me that as a Roman Catholic it is now my duty to kill Muslims/infidels/unbelievers, I would spit in his eye, and ask for his immediate resignation. As would millions of other Roman Catholics.

The few who would take up his call to arms based on religious invocations only, would be ostracised in Western society as lunatics, and tried in their criminal courts of laws rightfully as murderers.

That simply doesn't happen in Islam, and that, to take the Devil's Advocacy point in Hambone's stupid remark, was his point.

As I said, lads, this topic can be discussed ad nauseum. No, it's not really about politics. It's about behaviour. So let's worship when we have to, and keep our counsel when we must.

[TeeJay]

Unfortunately, there is such a thing as jihad in Islam, and it is invoked in the name of Allah, Mohammed (PBUH) and Muslims.

If the Pope himself, whom I revere, were to tell me that as a Roman Catholic it is now my duty to kill Muslims/infidels/unbelievers, I would spit in his eye, and ask for his immediate resignation. As would millions of other Roman Catholics.

The few who would take up his call to arms based on religious invocations only, would be ostracised in society as lunatics, and tried in their criminal courts of laws rightfully as murderers.

That simply doesn't happen in Islam, and that, to take the Devil's Advocacy point in Hambone's stupid remark, was his point.

As I said, lads, this topic can be discussed ad nauseum. No, it's not really about politics. It's about behaviour. So let's worship when we have to, and keep our counsel when we must.

Absolutely so, however, the Holy Qur'an itself specifically forbids 'throwing yourself into destruction' (aka suicide bombing) and states that when fighting against disbelievers, a jihadist must first give the infidel the option to accept Islam, failing that, the option to pay a 'tax' and live as a dhimi*, or as a last resort, smite off their head and finger-tips. The Holy Qur'an also states, that when fighting in Allah's name, one should not exceed the bounds, as Allah does not love those who exceed the bounds (which a suicide bomber most certainly would)

As previously mentioned, not all Muslim Communities have that freedom of speech, and, a major contributing factor to Bin Laden's 'jihad' is economical and political, not religious, he just uses religion to manipulate weak-minded and impressionable people into following him. Of course, I wouldn't expect people unfamiliar with Islam to appreciate that.

Absolutely so. To quote from the Holy Qur'an:

SAY: O ye UNBELIEVERS!

I worship not that which ye worship,

And ye do not worship that which I worship;

I shall never worship that which ye worship,

Neither will ye worship that which I worship.

To you be your religion; to me my religion.

(emphasis and punctuation as written in the Holy Qur'an)

*a non-Muslim who is allowed to live within a Muslim community and retain religious autonomy, but is considered a 2nd Class Citizen

[Victoria]

As previously mentioned, not all Muslim Communities have that freedom of speech, and, a major contributing factor to Bin Laden's 'jihad' is economical and political, not religious, he just uses religion to manipulate weak-minded and impressionable people into following him. Of course, I wouldn't expect people unfamiliar with Islam to appreciate that.

I don't think so. I think the majority of people in the West are well aware of the political limitations of the Middle East, and have done so for centuries. This is precisely why when the Ottoman Empire collapsed, having backed the wrong horse in WWI, Western countries intervened, leading us to the path we are in now.

There is no ignorance here, politically. Religiously, yes. But it goes both ways, I might add. How much of our ways are truly understood by those in the Middle East, without conspiracy theories?

I can also make the point that political oppression, divisive religious leaders and grinding poverty for centuries have never made South Americans drive jet planes into US buildings.

There is something going on, and people are looking for that variable which makes it different. I don't think I need go on.

Anyway, as Pugwash said, this is the internet. People will take an innocuous thread about the Middle East, and someone will bulldoze their views onto it. It's something we have to live with, but since we can choose to make a point and walk away, that's what I am choosing now.

Hope my intent has been understood.

[TeeJay]

I don't think so. I think the majority of people in the West are well aware of the political limitations of the Middle East, and have done so for centuries. This is precisely why when the Ottoman Empire collapsed, having backed the wrong horse in WWI, Western countries intervened, leading us to the path we are in now.

There is no ignorance here, politically. Religiously, yes. But it goes both ways, I might add. How much of our ways are truly understood by those in the Middle East, without conspiracy theories?

I can also make the point that political oppression, divisive religious leaders and grinding poverty for centuries have never made South Americans drive jet planes into US buildings.

There is something going on, and people are looking for that variable which makes it different. I don't think I need go on.

Anyway, as Pugwash said, this is the internet. People will take an innocuous thread about the Middle East, and someone will bulldoze their views onto it. It's something we have to live with, but since we can choose to make a point and walk away, that's what I am choosing now.

Hope my intent has been understood.

That's absolutely fair enough. Maybe I am somewhat biased in my view of American educational standards due to anecdotes from a cousin who lived in Houston, but from what I have read on other forums, there is a lot of unintentional ignorance about Islam. I myself was once of the opinion that it was an utterly vile religion, but a recent experience made me reconsider my opinion, research Islam more fully and with a totally open mind, and now I am proud to call myself a Muslim and live by the guidlines laid down in the Holy Qur'an

And indeed, your intent was totally understood Sometimes, one must play devil's advocate for a subject to be properly discussed

[hambone]

I am so glad that I have TeeJay on "ignore", his pointless whining posts are a waste of time. I only responded because another member told me what you said, and I see you have several follow up retorts which are no doubt really intelligent and illuminating to others who are craving to be annoyed, but I have long ago stopped reading your tripe.