Teddy Bear

[Victoria]

If this was true, how the hell was she to know what she was setting herself up for?

I mentioned it in one of my replies up top.

She held a contest to name the Teddy Bear (democracy in action), and when the class chose to honour one of the most popular boys in class, who just happened to be called Mohammed, she went with their decision.

She should've asserted her natural superior rights as a teacher and elder, and said, NO. We cannot name this Teddy Bear Mohammed!! That is the Prophet's name! And I, being an unbeliever and a foreigner, will be targetted for abuse with others thinking I had insidiously tried to dishonour the Prophet (PBUH), by likening him to a ferocious, hirsute animal.

Democracy failed her bitterly. Lesson learnt.

She should've said, "Mohammed, nah. Let's call him George Tony."

[ryyannon]

I mentioned it in one of my replies up top.

Yes indeed, it looks like you did!

I thought you knew by now that I never read anyone's posts except my own.

And sometimes not even my own.

Anyway, and like I said, how the hell was she supposed to know?

They should have named it Focktard or perhaps Assh-hat: end of story, and no forty lashes

[Victoria]

Like I said, how the hell was she supposed to know?

They should have named it Focktard or perhaps Assh-hat: end of story, and no forty lashes

Maybe Islamic countries should give their foreigners a little culture pack of instructions, like what happens with Foreign Service officials.

When my parents went to Saudi for a seminar my father was invited to, my mother was going outside wearing a longer than usual skirt. Nope. The hotel manager caught up to her as she strode outside, and said that was impossible -- she might receive abuse of a very severe and even official kind. So, of course, she changed. When in Rome, as TeeJay said.

Unfortunately, she was still wearing her gold cross around her neck and when she disrobed at an all-female boutique, the shop clerk refused to serve her. Rome is full of potholes.

@Ryyannon below: ...they have sexy lingerie boutiques in Saudi Arabia, you know. Someone must not be upset at seeing half-nekkid wimminz. From Teddy Bears to Teddies.

@Ryyannon belower: "Sorry video no longer available". Wow the censors are mighty busy today...

[ryyannon]

When my parents went to Saudi for a seminar my father was invited to, my mother was going outside wearing a longer than usual skirt.... The hotel manager caught up to her as she strode outside, and said that was impossible...So, of course, she changed.

Unfortunately, she was still wearing her gold cross around her neck and when she disrobed at an all-female boutique, the shop clerk refused to serve her

Uhh... could it have been the Hot-Pants and not the cross?

[ryyannon]

BREAKING NEWS

Oh my God!

The crazy focker has hijacked a plane and is flying to the White House!

Looks like they forced him down.

Whew! That was a close one...

Homeland Security, the NSA and the CIA have taken out the embedded video. Luckily, I saved the direct link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTDuGaTRiJU

Update:

MoeBear to Bush: "I demand political asylum!"

[Victoria]

BREAKING NEWS

Oh my God!

The crazy focker has hijacked a plane and is flying to the White House!

[KB]

cool video ryy.

Ok everyone this thread is jumping all over the shop, the topic is about the Sudanese teddy Bear not animal cruelty or Paedophilia lets all stay on topic please or make new threads.

It's easy for the Admin team to watch you that way.

Ken

[ryyannon]

Can we have a Colombophilia thread?

[Dani]

But you see, Dani, this is the mindset in Norway that allows your beloved breed of dog to be banned. Because they are thinking of the welfare of the dog, and its effect on society...

i realy did not understand that one Vic.

[Emmzy]

Can we have a Colombophilia thread?

Pigeon Racing.......visions of Jack Duckworth in his string vest, precious.

[TeeJay]

Earlier, I had written then promptly deleted, "in our replies, please let's be aware that we have at least one prominent Muslim in the group", but I realised that sounded both out of place and preachy.

Just to let you know, this is why I am using the word zealots constantly, because I know YOU would never condone such an action, TeeJay. But then, you're a convert...

This is true, I am a convert, but, the distinctions which need clarifying because of that are:

1) I am a 'Qur'an-only' Muslim. I do not follow the hadiths from the prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, because there is a section of the Holy Qur'an which specifically states:

Their guidance is not thine affair, O Muhammad; but Allah guideth whom he pleaseth.

That is, without question, specifically telling the prophet, peace be upon him, not to guide people (by his own opinions/habits/thoughts) and that is precicely what the hadiths are, his opinions/habits/thoughts. In fairness, in the recordings of the hadiths, the prophet, peace be upon him, did instruct his followers to record nothing from him but the Holy Qur'an, and if they had recorded anything else, to erase it, so he himself was trying to clarify that the only guidance a Muslim needs, is the Holy Qur'an itself.

2) The vast majority of 'raised Muslims' do infact live by the hadiths, and consider them equal in stature to the Holy Qur'an, which was never the intention of the prophet, peace be upon him, but something they have been raised to do by their parents. That is not to say that people who live by the examples and opinions of the prophet, peace be upon him, are wrong, but it is fair to say that strictly speaking, it is not 'true' Islam, because 'true' Islam is submission to the will of Allah, and the instructions from that are nowhere but in the Holy Qur'an.

[Edit toadd]

Essentially, this would be analagous to following the teachings of Jesus, and not the Catholic Church's version of 'Christianity', which are two rather different things.

3)Being a Muslim is essentially a very personal experiance. It cannot be done 'second hand'. It involves a moment, known as ihsan (realization) of being 'born anew', and every Muslim has to experience this before they can indeed truly submit to the will of Allah.

Just a few points, since on paper, you said some things I agree with otherwise.

Generally these nominally "Christian" people don't use religion as their crutch, though. These people do.

Quite so, in madrassas the world over.

Any so-called Islamic government that has become tyranical has moved away from the principles of Islam, no matter how self-righteous it may claim to be.

So where are the converts in this situation, petitioning, and calling for calm amongst their Umma? Surely they have some pull in the matter? Surely they must know that every time this happens, it makes the rest of them look bad?

Such reports are easy enough to find. Here's one from the MSN homepage:

British Muslims protested outside the Sudanese Embassy over the treatment of jailed teacher Gillian Gibbons.

The small but noisy group demanded the immediate release of Mrs Gibbons, who is currently serving a 15-day prison sentence in Sudan after her class of seven-year-olds named a teddy bear Mohammed.

Chanting "free, free Gillian" and "let her go, let her go", demonstrators attempted to hand over a "goodwill teddy" to the embassy, but a staff member refused to accept the gift.

Some 20 British Muslims, including MP for Tooting Sadiq Khan and chairman of the Islamic Human Rights Commission Massoud Shadjareh, gathered outside the Sudanese embassy in Piccadilly.

Leaders of the protest said they wanted to show that British Muslims supported Mrs Gibbons. Some arrived with their own teddy bears.

The protest followed angry scenes in Khartoum on Friday in which knife-wielding fundamentalists called for the execution of Mrs Gibbons.

At the London demonstration, Catherine Heseltine, a 28-year teacher and member of the Muslim Public Affairs Committee, condemned the action of hard-line Islamists.

She said: "They are dragging the name of Islam through the mud. The overwhelming feeling in the Muslim community in the UK is that it is really sad the way Gillian Gibbons has been treated. I haven't met a single British Muslim who has taken the naming of the teddy to be an insult."

Mr Shadjareh, chairman of the Islamic Human Rights Commission, said: "I find it offensive that Islam is being used in this way by the Sudanese government and the media.

"It is totally unacceptable by the Sudanese government and the press are trying to make this into another cartoon or a Salmon Rushdie issue."

Every one speaks of moderate Muslims, but moderate Muslims do not speak. This is the problem in this region.

Theproblems in the region, as in Iraq, under Saddam's rule, are social and political, not religious. It is a government usurping and perverting Islam for it's own ends, so these 'moderate Muslims' donot speak, under fear of reprisals and punishment from the authorities.

Every one speaks of moderate Muslims, but moderate Muslims do not speak. This is the problem in this region.

Exactly my point Vic.

Just what is it the moderate Muslims are afraid of? They would gain so much respect if the waged a 'war' against the extremists.

Let's hear their voices on TV, in the press, etc.

As in my above reply to Victoria, moderate Muslims do (and are) speaking out in this issue. One reason why moderate Muslims are perceived to be silent is because, the press marginalizes their comments, because it allows for demonization of Islam to sell copy, and another, is because Muslims are taught not to involve themselves in the affairs of others, and to be respectfull of other's privacy. This is, sadly, why many of the UK's 'homegrown' terrorists were not discovered by members of their communities or families. It is a different mindset, much like the 'inscrutable orientals'.

Emmzy, they would be hunted down and killed. Not because ALL Muslims would be in favour of this. On the contrary. But it's enough that there are a few active zealots who the rest are scared of, to shut the moderates up. Obviously, I'm not speaking of the Sudanese in these crowd shots. They are numerous enough.

One thing is to be perceived as an unbeliever. It's quite another thing to be an apostate.

Absolutely so.

Gandi said a society will be judged by the way they treat the animals.I dont agree fully whit Mr.Gandi as i belive we are predators and meat eaters by nature but we shoud go forward not backwards when it comes to humanly slaughter animals.

So to avoid human nature as meat eater is not the way to go,but to expect people to have empati and humanly kill the animals is..

Jews and muslims have a way of slauther animals that is beyond crulety and that is just facts not fiction..

I can only speak about countrys i now but in Norway and Sweden animals get stunned to death is thakes maybe and at worst case senario 10sec to die,by having your throat cut it thakes much longer in a Kosher slaughter house in the US they filmed a calf suffer for over 5min and it even stand up on it legs

I have seen both humans and animals get their throat cut the way halal and kosher is done and its horribel to see even if its only on a pc screen..

But i dont see have my rant here will change this desert religions.

D

Islam teaches Muslims to be kind to animals and it is said that the prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, was also a man who was kind to animals.

As I said in my previous post, and you appear to have totally ignored, the method of slaughter used by the Jews and Muslims (cutting the juggular vein) was the most humane method of slaughter available to them at the time, and, as I mentioned, the Holy Qur'an forbids eating anything which was killed by a fall, by a blow, by strangulation or by being gored. That is specifically forbidding eating (or killing) an animal killed in an inhumane manner. I would be most interested to see the footage from the kosher slaughter house, because cutting (properly) the juggular vein should result in near instant unconsciousness and death. I would suggest, that the animal in the footage, did not have it's juggular properly severed, which may explain the length of time taken to bleed to death. Also, as I mentioned previously, pigs are slaughtered by being hung from their back trotters, and having a 12 inch blade put in the chest. There is absolutely no humane treatment in that method of execution at all, and, I believe it is also customary now, for animals killed in the halal fashion to be electronically stunned so there is not even the sensation of being cut.

Everyone here keeps saying that 'she' (the teacher) was the one who named the teddybear.

I have read elsewhere - on a news forum - that she asked the class to name it.

Meaning the idea came from the kids themselves.

If this was true, how the hell was she to know what she was setting herself up for?

Indeed, it was the children who chose to name the teddy Muhammad, more specifically, one boy chose the name, because it was his own name.

Something which the tabloids have tried to keep quiet, is that the teacher was reported for malicious reasons, not because of actual objections to what happened. And, as I mentioned before with the 'when in Rome' comment, she should have been more mindfull, and possibly better informed, about the codes of conduct in a country operating under sharia law before taking the teaching post. They say ignorance is no defence, but in all honesty, that is her only 'crime' here, certainly not malice or disrespect to Islam. Infact, a newspaper interview with her son, had quotes where she had said that she did not want this to cause a huge upset, and did not want people to use it as an excuse to vilify Muslims.

Edited December 1, 2007 by TeeJay

[Dani]

This is true, I am a convert, but, the distinctions which need clarifying because of that are:

1) I am a 'Qur'an-only' Muslim. I do not follow the hadiths from the prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, because there is a section of the Holy Qur'an which specifically states:

That is, without question, specifically telling the prophet, peace be upon him, not to guide people (by his own opinions/habits/thoughts) and that is precicely what the hadiths are, his opinions/habits/thoughts. In fairness, in the recordings of the hadiths, the prophet, peace be upon him, did instruct his followers to record nothing from him but the Holy Qur'an, and if they had recorded anything else, to erase it, so he himself was trying to clarify that the only guidance a Muslim needs, is the Holy Qur'an itself.

2) The vast majority of 'raised Muslims' do infact live by the hadiths, and consider them equal in stature to the Holy Qur'an, which was never the intention of the prophet, peace be upon him, but something they have been raised to do by their parents. That is not to say that people who live by the examples and opinions of the prophet, peace be upon him, are wrong, but it is fair to say that strictly speaking, it is not 'true' Islam, because 'true' Islam is submission to the will of Allah, and the instructions from that are nowhere but in the Holy Qur'an.

[Edit toadd]

Essentially, this is the distinction between following the teachings of Jesus, and not the Catholic Church's version of 'Christianity', which are two rather different things.

3)Being a Muslim is essentially a very personal experiance. It cannot be done 'second hand'. It involves a moment, known as ihsan (realization) of being 'born anew', and every Muslim has to experience this before they can indeed truly submit to the will of Allah.

Any so-called Islamic government that has become tyranical has moved away from the principles of Islam, no matter how self-righteous it may claim to be.

Such reports are easy enough to find. Here's one from the MSN homepage:

Theproblems in the region, as in Iraq, under Saddam's rule, are social and political, not religious. It is a government usurping and perverting Islam for it's own ends, so these 'moderate Muslims' donot speak, under fear of reprisals and punishment from the authorities.

As in my above reply to Victoria, moderate Muslims do (and are) speaking out in this issue. One reason why moderate Muslims are perceived to be silent is because, the press marginalizes their comments, because it allows for demonization of Islam to sell copy, and another, is because Muslims are taught not to involve themselves in the affairs of others, and to be respectfull of other's privacy. This is, sadly, why many of the UK's 'homegrown' terrorists were not discovered by members of their communities or families. It is a different mindset, much like the 'inscrutable orientals'.

Absolutely so.

Islam teaches Muslims to be kind to animals and it is said that the prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, was also a man who was kind to animals.

As I said in my previous post, and you appear to have totally ignored, the method of slaughter used by the Jews and Muslims (cutting the juggular vein) was the most humane method of slaughter available to them at the time, and, as I mentioned, the Holy Quran forbids eating anything which was killed by a fall, by a blow, by strangulation or by being gored. That is specifically forbidding eating (or killing) an animal killed in an inhumane manner. I would be most interested to see the footage from the kosher slaughter house, because cutting (properly) the juggular vein should result in near instant unconsciousness and death. I would suggest, that the animal in the footage, did not have it's juggular properly severed, which may explain the length of time taken to bleed to death. Also, as I mentioned previously, pigs are slaughtered by being hung from their back trotters, and having a 12 inch blade put in the chest. There is absolutely no humane treatment in that method of execution at all, and, I believe it is also customary now, for animals killed in the halal fashion to be electronically stunned so there is not even the sensation of being cut.

Indeed, it was the children who chose to name the teddy Muhammad, more specifically, one boy chose the name, because it was his own name.

Something which the tabloids have tried to keep quiet, is that the teacher was reported for malicious reasons, not because of actual objections to what happened. And, as I mentioned before with the 'when in Rome' comment, she should have been more mindfull, and possibly better informed, about the codes of conduct in a country operating under sharia law before taking the teaching post. They say ignorance is no defence, but in all honesty, that is her only 'crime' here, certainly not malice or disrespect to Islam. Infact, a newspaper interview with her son, had quotes where she had said that she did not want this to cause a huge upset, and for people to use it as an excuse to vilify Muslims.

As I said in my previous post, and you appear to have totally ignored, the method of slaughter used by the Jews and Muslims (cutting the juggular vein) was the most humane method of slaughter available to them at the time

This is something muslims and some parts of the jewish religion tend to do,staying in the past we have 10times more effectiv slaughter metods this days.

But becasue of what some dude said long time ago muslims and jews will not change for the better and slaughter an animal as it shoud by 2007 standar not 1007..

No pigs in any europen country i now about get slaughter like that,you woud get jail time if you did that in Norway so i doubt any other country slaugher animals like that maybe the Chines do.

The calf vid can be found on peta i think.

D

[TeeJay]

This is something muslims and some parts of the jewish religion tend to do,staying in the past we have 10times more effectiv slaughter metods this days.

Yes, a bolt to the head. Which counts as 'a blow'. Something forbidden by the Holy Qur'an.

But becasue of what some dude said long time ago muslims and jews will not change for the better and slaughter an animal as it shoud by 2007 standar not 1007..

No. Not because of 'what some dude' said, but because of what was commanded by Allah. There really is a huge difference there, which I pointed out in my above post. It seems you are not reading anything I am saying which would educate you on the subject.

No pigs in any europen country i now about get slaughter like that,you woud get jail time if you did that in Norway so i doubt any other country slaugher animals like that maybe the Chines do.

I admit, the video I saw was 15 years ago, but, it was in a UK slaughter house.

The calf vid can be found on peta i think.

Ah PETA... A group who's tactics have left them reviled by people on both sides of the debate on animal rights. PETA are as much extremists as terrorists who kill 'in the name' of Islam...

[TeeJay]

Also from MSN's Homepage;

Hopes were rising for the early release of British teacher Gillian Gibbons following the intervention of two Muslim peers.

Lord Ahmed, a Labour peer and Baroness Warsi, a Conservative peer, held talks with the Sudanese foreign minister and other officials as part of a private attempt to secure her freedom.

The peers also met Mrs Gibbons, 54, at a secret location in Sudan's capital Khartoum. Mrs Gibbons' chief defence lawyer Kamal al-Gizouli said he expects her to be pardoned following the peers' visit.

Mrs Gibbons is being held in secret amid fears for her own safety after thousands of protesters gathered to demand she should face a harsher sentence.

Mrs Gibbons was jailed for 15 days by a Sudanese court on Thursday for insulting Islam after allowing her class of seven-year-olds to name a teddy bear Mohammed.

In a statement released by her legal team, Mrs Gibbons said she was "fine and well". The short statement, which was handed to Channel 4 News, said the teacher wanted people to know she had been well treated.

It said: "I'm fine, I'm well, I'm very grateful to all the people working on my behalf. I know so many people out there have done so much. I want people to know I've been well treated, and especially that I'm well fed.

"The guards are constantly asking if I have everything I need."

Foreign Secretary David Miliband has rung Mrs Gibbon's son, John, 27, to personally reassure the family that he is doing "everything he can" to secure her release.

Speaking outside his Liverpool home, Mr Gibbons, 27, said he had spoken to his mother and told her the family missed her and loved her.

[Victoria]

i realy did not understand that one Vic.

Mindful of Ken's kindly reproach, we could start another thread, or perhaps I should PM you privately?

Just to say that my reply will mention that all of this mindset has to do government thinking it is acting in benefit of its populace, in as humane a way as possible for those who or which cannot think or act for themselves. Your dog's breed is considered vicious and therefore poses a threat not only to itself, but because it cannot control itself, also to others. In short, it's more humane to take away something, than to let violence occur.

(This single point, BTW, is the salient difference between modern Europe and modern America, and the root of all its disagreements -- just how much can government meddle in its private citizens' lives to better it, according to its lights)

Shall we PM each other further?

EDIT: I can understand basic written Bokm

[Pugwash]

Any so-called Islamic government that has become tyranical has moved away from the principles of Islam, no matter how self-righteous it may claim to be.

So, you're a better Muslim than the Islamic state of Sudan? The problem is that, unless Allah comes down and tells you which one of you is correct, both you and them will think that one of you is a true Muslim and the other is false.

If you see that basing law on religion is stupid then you see laws and rights as higher importance than religion. At this point, why bother with religion if it's less important?

To take it back to the case in Sudan, the courts there believe that it is important that they act upon the strict rules about blasphemy. Should they be looked down upon by Muslims? Are they not just following Allah's will? Wouldn't Allah stop them if they were wrong? The Gods used to tell us how to live all the time, according to sacred writings.

Where are the Gods these days if they allow us to commit such flagrant stupidity in their names?

God is an absent father. He obviously doesn't care about us any more. Is that our fault or his? Did we take his name in vain one time too many?

[Victoria]

Did we take his name in vain one time too many?

I think He's just p1ssed off a teddy bear was called Mohammed, when plainly a better name was Trevor.

[Pugwash]

I think He's just p1ssed off a teddy bear was called Mohammed, when plainly a better name was Trevor.

Or he wanted it called Jehovah so he could get back to some smiteage.

[Victoria]

Or he wanted it called Jehovah so he could get back to some smiteage.

Don't be silly, Pugwash. Who's ever heard of a Teddy being called Jehovah? I mean, even in Maida Vale.

[TwoTone]

I think He's just p1ssed off a teddy bear was called Mohammed, when plainly a better name was Trevor.

Or he wanted it called Jehovah so he could get back to some smiteage.

Or depending on the color of the Bear's fur...

He could be called TwoTone...

[TeeJay]

So, you're a better Muslim than the Islamic state of Sudan?

It is not a case of being 'better', but a case of one thing being correct, the other not. As I pointed out previously, the US and UK would claim to be 'Christian', but with very little thought actually given to the message Jesus delivered, rather the dogma created by Constantine and the Catholic Church.

The problem is that, unless Allah comes down and tells you which one of you is correct, both you and them will think that one of you is a true Muslim and the other is false.

As I said above to Victoria, when I quoted from the Holy Qur'an, that is what Allah did do, when He reminded the prophet, peace be upon him, that it was not his place to guide others (by his own opinions/habits, but to pass on the message he had been given)

If you see that basing law on religion is stupid then you see laws and rights as higher importance than religion. At this point, why bother with religion if it's less important?

If the law is based on the religion, then the religion has to be more important, for the law to be taken from it...

To take it back to the case in Sudan, the courts there believe that it is important that they act upon the strict rules about blasphemy.

Should they be looked down upon by Muslims?

That's not really the issue. The point is that to be a Muslim means to submit to the will of Allah. The will of Allah is the messages contained within the Holy Qur'an, as told to the prophet Muhammad by the angel Gabriel, not the laws which are taken from the hadiths, which, as previously mentioned, Allah reminded the prophet, peace be upon him, not to do, and, which the prophet, peace be upon him, himself instructed others not to record. (Again, this is like the difference between Jesus' message, and Catholic Dogma, but the modern confusion between the two)

The laws which Allah expects Muslims to follow, are laid out in the Holy Qur'an.

Are they not just following Allah's will?

That would depend on which set of laws they are following.

Wouldn't Allah stop them if they were wrong?

Not an Islamic expression, but, 'The Lord moves in mysterious ways'. Allah 'stopping them' might not be an obvious thing.

Where are the Gods these days if they allow us to commit such flagrant stupidity in their names?

God is an absent father. He obviously doesn't care about us any more. Is that our fault or his? Did we take his name in vain one time too many?

People in the Church of England have suggested that the recent floods might be 'God's Punishment' for sinfull ways. The weather (world wide) has not been good in recent years... Tsunami, earthquakes, floods, typhoons, hurricanes etc... Maybe those are Allah's punishments to Mankind...

[dieselpower]

The biggest bomb wins.

Mmmmm..... not sure the Vietnamese would agree with you there.

As for fundamentalist zealots. Your argument is one of fundamentals and you certainly sound like a zealot.

[Pugwash]

As I said above to Victoria, when I quoted from the Holy Qur'an, that is what Allah did do, when He reminded the prophet, peace be upon him, that it was not his place to guide others (by his own opinions/habits, but to pass on the message he had been given)

In your next prayers, can you ask him to be a little less ambiguous next time?

If the law is based on the religion, then the religion has to be more important, for the law to be taken from it...

So you do agree with Sharia law then?

The weather (world wide) has not been good in recent years... Tsunami, earthquakes, floods, typhoons, hurricanes etc... Maybe those are Allah's punishments to Mankind...

No, it's just bad weather.

[Dani]

Vic.

To ban breeds by reasons that is false or based on lies is something else then let say banning a slaugther metod that we NOW is cruel

My dog is as vicious as a pepsi bottle he can hurt people but then i need to pick him up and throw him on you

TeeJay i dont need to be so enlighted to the Islam way as i had more or less only muslims friends until i was 12-13 and i still have many i consider friends but they dont cear to much of the religion they eat pig and such

[KB]

And Dani you are still taking this thread off topic, please refrain.

Is that the teddy you sleep with Double T?

Ken