Why is Jesus's birth celebrated on Dec 25th?

[Victoria]

I found a video presentation on Youtube by a man called Dr. Khalid Muhammad who I believe was a part of the Nation of Islam. I believe the presentation took place in a University in California in the early 90's or late 80's.

Dr. Khalid Muhammad and the Nation of Islam being cited in this thread trying to bring information not disinformation?

Wow. That's like me trotting Dr. Mengele about anthropological insights...Demon, I'm a little nonplussed.

May I ask why you are asking these questions, friendly-like?

[Lyndonville]

You want others who have researched this to give you facts, is that right? Why don't you research it and find facts? I don't mind conversation, but tend to shy away from becoming an instructor in history. All of what Pug wrote is spot on. It's always been a mystery to me how and whyt they decided to upgrade JC's status from a Prophet to a God. For almost 400 years he was simply a spiritual leader in the eyes of mankind. They, whoever "they" were, named this guy Jesus Christ. Ever heard of a Jew named that before? Of course not. Who knows what this guys name was. Could have been Moshe Ben-David Ben for all we know, but one thing we do know is JC was not his name. As for the missing years, read up on his life in Egypt and you'll understand more about what he thought and why. The Temple in Cairo didn't exactly follow the teachings that came out of the Temple in Jerusalem. They weren't bar room buddies at all.

I'm not there yet. I would like to have the exact reference for you to say that though.

Everything I have said, including that bit of fluff on Queen Marie, can be backed up with noted historical sources. I'd just like to read the passage which allows you to state your claim with such validity.

And then I'd like to read why it was excised.

In short, give me history, or give me Cheetos.

[DemonSlayer]

Interesting.. What scripture is that quoted from Victoria?

[Victoria]

Interesting.. What scripture is that quoted from Victoria?

http://www.painsley.org.uk/re/signposts/y8...ent/c-hindu.htm

I have, of course, read the Bhagavad Gita in school.

[DemonSlayer]

Dr. Khalid Muhammad and the Nation of Islam being cited in this thread trying to bring information not disinformation?

Wow. That's like me trotting Dr. Mengele about anthropological insights...Demon, I'm a little nonplussed.

May I ask why you are asking these questions, friendly-like?

Questions such as the actual birth of Jesus? I was wondering if anyone here on this forum who perhaps more knowledge of Christian scripture could explain to me or point me in the right direction as to why its widely celebrated as his birthday.

Josef Megele was a Nazi war criminal who commited unspeakable horrendous acts. I don't think Khalid Muhammad is anywhere near that league However I should research more into who he was.

[Pugwash]

Speaking of bonking, and all that good stuff, the Hindus have several Universe creation stories, but the prevalent one goes like this:

SAFFRON: Do you know the myth about Earth-that-was?

WASH: Not so much.

SAFFRON: That when she was born, she had no sky, and she was open, inviting and the stars would rush into her, through the skin of her, making the oceans boil with sensation, and when she could endure no more ecstasy, she puffed up her cheeks and blew out the sky, to womb her and keep them at bay, 'til she had rest some, and that we had to leave 'cause she was strong enough to suck them in once more.

WASH: Whoa. Good myth.

[Victoria]

You want others who have researched this to give you facts, is that right? Why don't you research it and find facts? I don't mind conversation, but tend to shy away from becoming an instructor in history.

I tend to be a little heavy-handed, for which I apologise, Lyndonville.

But I am an Historian by training and profession. Religion is a contentious topic, and one which there are many reasons why people ask questions.

Some are genuine because they are curious, like I think Demon is, but others, because they wish to tear down religion because they don't like it (specifically Christianity).

I don't care about any of that. I just want as much fact as I can muster. If it's in the Scriptures, I'll take it, as flawed as they are.

If not, then we're all just shooting the breeze, and one person's information is another person's factoid. Is that cool with you?

[Victoria]

Josef Megele was a Nazi war criminal who commited unspeakable horrendous acts. I don't think Khalid Muhammad is anywhere near that league However I should research more into who he was.

Any moment now, I'll be Godwin Lawed.

Thanks, Demon, for answering my question so kindly. I hope you find the answers which interest you, and please know that I have no agendas -- I love History, warts and all.

I am at your disposal anytime!

[DemonSlayer]

Thanks again for the link Victoria. I can't make out what scripture this is taken from. I have a copy of the Bhagavad Gita As It Is, a very englightening scripture might I add. The Srimad Bhagavatam is also available online to read and that is a fascinating scripture, a lot of detailed stuff in there.

[DemonSlayer]

Any moment now, I'll be Godwin Lawed.

Thanks, Demon, for answering my question so kindly. I hope you find the answers which interest you, and please know that I have no agendas -- I love History, warts and all.

I am at your disposal anytime!

No problemo Victoria! I never assumed you had any agendas I think you might know more about Khalid Muhammad than I You have been helpful and I will certainly research more into this, like you I am also interested in history

[Pugwash]

You have been helpful and I will certainly research more into this, like you I am also interested in history

I'm interested in history, too. I find it hard to believe people can keep their faith when they study religious history, but that's because I don't have any myself.

[doc savage]

@Doc:

"The date Christmas is celebrated was actually moved by the Roman Catholic church from January to December to compete/coincide with the aforementioned pagan holiday, which is why some orthodox churches (Greek, Armenian) still observe Christmas in January. "

Did Matt Stone and Trey Parker really say that? That's wrong, and I'm surprised since I love them.

They celebrate later because the Orthodox Christian churches are on Julian calendar time, not on the revised Gregorian calendar which we use, in the modern-day.

They are 14 days behind us, presently. In Russian History as well as Greek History, you will see annotations of (OS) which means Old Style.

The last Queen of Yugoslavia was called "The Child of Two Centuries" because she was born in December 1899 in one, and January 1900 in the other. She was born Romanian Orthodox.

Crap--OK I meant South Park gave a fairly complete summary of the history or the Mormon church.

Back to the date thing, you are completely correct about the different calendars, that's why the Orthodox church observes on Jan. 18th and the Armenian Church observes Jan. 6th. It's still generally accepted that the date was moved back by the Roman Catholic church but this move was not shared by other Christian groups.

Sorry, I could probably research this better but I'm a little busy, this is just from memory.

[DemonSlayer]

Pugwash, I personally find that researching history and facts actually reinforces my own faith. I mean if we are to believe that events took place as stated by scriptures of whatever faith we follow, there must be evidence right? Relics, artefacts, anything, there must be something which collaborates with the scripture if we believe it to be true, unless of course you have faith 100% in what is inside the scripture and take it as fact.

[Pugwash]

Pugwash, I personally find that researching history and facts actually reinforces my own faith. I mean if we are to believe that events took place as stated by scriptures of whatever faith we follow, there must be evidence right?

Yes, but evidence looked at through a 2000 year old lens doesn't corroborate divinity.

The problem I have with faith-based history is that you start with a conclusion and try to fit the evidence to the divine truth. You're guaranteed to be prejudiced to any conflicting evidence. Still, there's nothing wrong with it as long as you don't delude yourself. I don't want you to think I don't think religious people can't be historians.

For instance, how did God let the Spanish Inquisition or the Cathar Massacre[1] happen? If there were a God, how could he have allowed this to happen in His name?

This is the kind of stuff I find interesting.

[1] "Kill them all, the Lord will recognise His own."

[DemonSlayer]

Hmm that is indeed a lengthy history, I will have to conduct detailed research into that, perhaps Victoria might know a little about this subject.

However I will say this, I believe that God doesn't intervene in such matters. Any one who kills in the name of God, be they right or wrong, will be judged for their actions. If the people who carried out such massacres where wrong, (we can debate that ourselves) but ultimately they will be judged by their actions/deeds.

[Pugwash]

However I will say this, I believe that God doesn't intervene in such matters.

What, in that case, is the point of prayers?

[DemonSlayer]

Prayer is used as a means to 'unite' oneself with God, and try to establish a closeness with God, not 'ask' Him to do things for you. At the end of the day whatever He wills, happens. Prayer is worshipping God and we do this to try to

I think that you are talking from the point of view that prayer is when you ask God to assist you in certain actions. In my faith, prayer is a means of worshipping God. We do this because thats what we're supposed to do as humans.

[Victoria]

What, in that case, is the point of prayers?

I read my mum this entire thread. "Why are you talking about this in a rep watch place?". She doesn't have a good grasp of the internet being 300 million people just talking crap yet.

I just say I'm religious. She truly is, because she's devout. So please accept her Roman Catholic definition of prayer, as a talking point.

"A prayer is communication between you and God."

(Clearly I got my wordiness from my dad!)

Basically, humans have a need to transmit their hopes and desires to others. A prayer can also be a supplication to intercede or alter life, but you cannot tell God what to do. That's why it's called "prayer" not "command".

@Demon: EXACTLY!

@Pugwash: Sorry, I know it wasn't addressed to me, but basically it means you wish them well, perhaps also that you will speak to God so that He may intercede for them. We are indeed, vastly off-topic.

[Pugwash]

I think that you are talking from the point of view that prayer is when you ask God to assist you in certain actions. In my faith, prayer is a means of worshipping God. We do this because thats what we're supposed to do as humans.

So, if someone says "you're in my prayers" or "I'll pray for you" what are they hoping to achieve? I've never got this one.

Sorry, I've gone vastly off-topic.

[DemonSlayer]

People usually pray for other people whom they love, because they think that God will listen to them and therefore 'look out' for these loved ones. However in my faith, we believe in the system of Karma. God has implemented this system as a universal law, not applying just this universe but the other countless universes too. So as a result of your deeds, and when I say deeds, I don't just mean your current life, but all of the deeds you have accumulated from your previous lives. These deeds will then be 'paid out' in the form of good things happenining to you in terms of fortune or suffering.

[Pugwash]

basically it means you wish them well, perhaps also that you will speak to God so that He may intercede for them.

But he can't intercede for them. That's not how it works, surely.

I just suppose I don't have enough faith to see past what I perceive as contradictions.

[TeeJay]

But he can't intercede for them. That's not how it works, surely.

I just suppose I don't have enough faith to see past what I perceive as contradictions.

He could, if it is His will to do so

A lot of people say "If God exists, why does he let XYZ happen??"

For the simple reason, that that is God's will. Everything that happens, good and bad, happens because it is God's will. Sometimes, bad things happen, because a good thing will come from it.

Example. Three serial killers sent down in one week. Very bad (and tragic) that their victims were killed. Very good, that they are going to spend the rest of their lives rotting in jail (assuming the other cons don't murder them) Not only do they get to suffer that turmoil, they'll then have to answer to God for their crimes.

We might not always understand God's plan, but that is not the point. The point, is in submitting to God's will, and trusting ourselves to Him.

I guess missing this thread is the price I pay for watching Torchwood

Edited February 27, 2008 by TeeJay

[StormTooper4]

Ok firstly Great Question thanks Demon for starting this thread, secondly great responses all valid and interesting .Thirdly I have to say I think is just bloody amazing that this sort of topic is discussed here and long may the voice of freedom of speech be heard.

Anyhow I

[jetzeus]

Yep, Pug...Sounds like you are s

[jetzeus]

Hey Pug...Sounds like you are saying the winner of the war got to write the book! The Romans kept the parts they wanted people to believe and dropped the rest in the Dead Sea!!

I liked your Ester lesson too!! I used to like Easter for the little Marshmallow birdies!! Now there is a much better reason to love it!!

Regards!!

Jetzeus...a guiltless Catholic!!

Fact?

No, just the same level of evidence as anything else in the Bible. The difference between the Gnostic Gospels and the New Testament is what the Roman Emperor Constantine chose to keep and discard. Before the First Council of Nicaea, 325AD, there was all sorts of stuff in the bible that was edited out (under the guidance of God, allegedly ...) to make it more palatable for the Church as was. Mostly, they decided on whether Jesus was God or whether he was merely a perfect creation, but in debating this, they deliberately forgot to tell one whole sector of the Church that they'd decided to meet earlier than previously agreed. They met, closed the doors and left the Arians outside, unable to present their point of view. They also moved Easter[1] to a new date, as previously it was the Jewish Passover.

This council also introduced a whole pile of laws, designed to stop priests from having fun, essentially. Oh, and they excommunicated the people they locked out. Nice.

[1] Easter: Um, yeah, this one will make your head spin. Eostre is a pagan goddess that represented the Spring Equinox. The rabbits represent having lots of sex. Yes, it's an age old fertility ritual to celebrate the coming of spring. Not a lot to do with Jesus, but they tagged his resurrection on a f*ckfest in an effort to clean things up.