China and animals

[anton]

this killings are beyond any halal slaughter or kosher this is PURE BRUTALITY nothing else.

you dont seem to understand and i em sure dont have a great deal of empati for animals in general.

That's not something nice to assume about someone you don't even know. And I do understand; you don't seem to think that I do. And I tried to be civil about the whole thread, but you have to say that I don't have empathy for animals.

I don't know what you want us to prove as to show empathy, but I do know that we live in the real world.

Good thing I didn't disclose my ethnic origins. Then maybe you'll accuse me of being a savage too.

[Victoria]

Good thing I didn't disclose my ethnic origins. Then maybe you'll accuse me of being a savage too.

It's not that, Anton...

I've seen that Dani has a great big heart for animals. He is aghast at any cruelty to them. But he acts with his heart, at times, not thinking all angles in a matter.

When his Staffordshire pitbull breed was outlawed in his homeland, he thought that was a step too far. His own dog is as sweet as child. Couldn't hurt a fly. He also posted a website from a group against pitbulls, showing their hatred for the breed. He was disgusted people could think this way.

Well, guess what? Dani, speaking to you now, since it's rude to constantly talk over your head -- apologies.

The organisations and people you donate moneys too often hate pitbulls as a mega-violent breed of dog. If you questioned them closely, you would soon find that out. They'd probably confirm that they think it's odd someone who is against cruelty to dogs is an owner of a pitbull, bred for the greatest savageness.

PETA (which I believe you don't like, Dani, right?) work hand-in-glove with activists who wish to outlaw pitbulls in the USA, e.g. That won't happen, because of the cultural traditions in place in this country. It's different in Norway.

To the Norwegian government, potential violence is as awful as actual violence, such as the process of making meat halal. And pitbulls are potentially mega-violent, so out they go.

[TeeJay]

@ Teejay, great gesture m8, but do you think Jay will do that?

If he didn't, he'll have to justify himself to Allah when the time comes

[DemonSlayer]

Since we're on the topic to cruelty to animals (with dogs being the main animal in discussion), have a look at this video about how animals are treated on farms and the brutal way they are killed before they end up on your plate. Surely if dogs are not supposed to be treated cruelly, then these animals should also have the same rights? A dog is no more 'human' than these animals.

[confused69u]

I don't see what the problem is... maybe its the fact that they lack the modernized machinery that we have to 'slaughter' the animals for consumption? the end result is the same either way; the animal is killed and is then consumed. Maybe you should visit one of these slaughter/processing plants to view the sheer brutality which in the end turns out as your steak, drumstick or pork chop?

[Victoria]

I don't see what the problem is... maybe its the fact that they lack the modernized machinery that we have to 'slaughter' the animals for consumption? the end result is the same either way; the animal is killed and is then consumed. Maybe you should visit one of these slaughter/processing plants to view the sheer brutality which in the end turns out as your steak, drumstick or pork chop?

Point taken for the rest of us, but I'm guessing that Demon is a vegetarian.

Me, I wear furs, I eat meat, I've shod my feet and wrists full of cow leather, I have hunted and shot game. In short, I've lived the life of an English country girl -- taught to respect nature, and never to treat any beast with wanton cruelty.

Unfortunately, there are realities in life which some of us cannot reconcile.

E.g.: I know many vegetarians who are pro-Abortion, in effect, considering the egg of a chicken to be more worthy of care than that of a human's.

But that's another topic altogether...I only mention it to illustrate the point of human inconsistency. And shutting one's eyes when it's not convenient to our lives.

[marrickvilleboy]

Point taken for the rest of us, but I'm guessing that Demon is a vegetarian.

Me, I wear furs, I eat meat, I've shod my feet and wrists full of cow leather, I have hunted and shot game. In short, I've lived the life of an English country girl -- taught to respect nature, and never to treat any beast with wanton cruelty.

Unfortunately, there are realities in life which some of us cannot reconcile.

E.g.: I know many vegetarians who are pro-Abortion, in effect, considering the egg of a chicken to be more worthy of care than that of a human's.

But that's another topic altogether...I only mention it to illustrate the point of human inconsistency. And shutting one's eyes when it's not convenient to our lives.

haha when you said "english country girl", reminded me of Pride and Prejudice......dunno why. anyway...........

[Dani]

So if they're kissed to death, you don't mind if they're eaten, Dani??

lol what a stupid thing to say.

i em no vegan.

It's not that, Anton...

I've seen that Dani has a great big heart for animals. He is aghast at any cruelty to them. But he acts with his heart, at times, not thinking all angles in a matter.

When his Staffordshire pitbull breed was outlawed in his homeland, he thought that was a step too far. His own dog is as sweet as child. Couldn't hurt a fly. He also posted a website from a group against pitbulls, showing their hatred for the breed. He was disgusted people could think this way.

Well, guess what? Dani, speaking to you now, since it's rude to constantly talk over your head -- apologies.

The organisations and people you donate moneys too often hate pitbulls as a mega-violent breed of dog. If you questioned them closely, you would soon find that out. They'd probably confirm that they think it's odd someone who is against cruelty to dogs is an owner of a pitbull, bred for the greatest savageness.

PETA (which I believe you don't like, Dani, right?) work hand-in-glove with activists who wish to outlaw pitbulls in the USA, e.g. That won't happen, because of the cultural traditions in place in this country. It's different in Norway.

To the Norwegian government, potential violence is as awful as actual violence, such as the process of making meat halal. And pitbulls are potentially mega-violent, so out they go.

You dont think i now who is against pits or not?

I have been involded whit WORLD WIDE efforts against this bans not only local i worked against this laws way before my breed was banned in Norway.

I em against all such laws that steps on my rights..If i coud write in Norwigan and you understand i coud let you now more, but english not my native toung so not easy to write exactly have i whant to.

I don't see what the problem is... maybe its the fact that they lack the modernized machinery that we have to 'slaughter' the animals for consumption? the end result is the same either way; the animal is killed and is then consumed. Maybe you should visit one of these slaughter/processing plants to view the sheer brutality which in the end turns out as your steak, drumstick or pork chop?

you seem lack a basic understanidng of slaughter metods, empati and more..I have seen the slaughter metods used in Norway and i aprove of them as good and humane..This type slaughter toghter whit slaughter metods like kosher and halal is just barbaric and cruel nothing else, and to approve of them is in my eyes just as bad as the people that practice it.

Cheers

[anton]

I have seen the slaughter metods used in Norway and i aprove of them as good and humane

Calling any slaughter method good and humane is ironic.

But I hope you don't hate us all Dani, for having our own point of views on the subject...this is a watch forum, isn't it? Can we still be friendly?

[jnagy]

we are a few bombs away from the stoneage.if it comes down to starving or eating, after a while some people would eat other people.civilization is just a thin veneer of technology.read the bible.people are just as savage as we have always been,we don't change.i agree it is plain cruel.is there a less cruel way to exterminate an animal that you are about to ingest?point is, it is all cruel.if you don't like it eat vegetables.or is it cruel to cut down corn in the prime of it's life and drown it in butter?hindus think it disgusting that i would eat a cow.jewish people would rather die than eat a pig.i eat bacon by the pound.aboriginies eat ANYTHING.it is just food.

[TeeJay]

This type slaughter toghter whit slaughter metods like kosher and halal is just barbaric and cruel nothing else, and to approve of them is in my eyes just as bad as the people that practice it.

Cheers

The method is not cruel, if it is performed correctly. The Qur'an states that it is forbidden to eat flesh of an animal which has suffered in it's death (ie in a fall, goring, strangling etc) The Qur'an does not permit cruelty to animals. While you may not personally approve of the method of halal slaughter, that does not make it barbaric or cruel. If performed correctly, unconsciousness is near instantaneous, with death soon following. It does not cause suffering. Infact, it is not allowed for someone to slaughter an animal infront of another animal, as that could distress the 'next animal inline'.

I respect your right to your own opinion, but saying that something is barbaric does not actually make it so.

As I said previously, different cultures have their own ways of doing things. We may not personally like those things, but, it is not our place to criticise them, or make them conform to the standards of Western Society.

[Dani]

The method is not cruel, if it is performed correctly. The Qur'an states that it is forbidden to eat flesh of an animal which has suffered in it's death (ie in a fall, goring, strangling etc) The Qur'an does not permit cruelty to animals. While you may not personally approve of the method of halal slaughter, that does not make it barbaric or cruel. If performed correctly, unconsciousness is near instantaneous, with death soon following. It does not cause suffering. Infact, it is not allowed for someone to slaughter an animal infront of another animal, as that could distress the 'next animal inline'.

I respect your right to your own opinion, but saying that something is barbaric does not actually make it so.

As I said previously, different cultures have their own ways of doing things. We may not personally like those things, but, it is not our place to criticise them, or make them conform to the standards of Western Society.

http://getactive.peta.org/campaign/pink_wo...eo?c=stspinkvid

Yeah i now its sheeps in Aussie country clip, but look at the way they slaughter the sheeps when they arrive in a muslim country and get subject to the great kindness of halal slaughter..I em happy to say both halal and kosher is illegal in my country..

blabla peta this and that i now, i dislike them also.

As said before i em no vegan i em just not a savage or stoneage man.

Cheers

[Pugwash]

You guys are missing the point totaly, its not that they eat dogs its the way they get KILLED.

Are you a vegetarian?

If not, why not?

[Victoria]

blabla peta this and that i now, i dislike them also.

As said before i em no vegan i em just not a savage or stoneage man.

But Dani, isn't it obvious that halal practises ARE NOT barbaric. The whole point of the laws of kosher meat is that it's a more humane way killing of beasts.

It just LOOKS barbaric because of the flow of blood.

Though I wear furs, I have to tell you, I find the arguments against the wearing of fur, much more convincing than the slaughtering of animals for consumption.

Especially as the fur is not extracted after the animal is stunned.

BTW, many people find circumcision barbaric. I'm afraid I do too. I would never do that to any boy of mine. *shiver*

I guess we all have something which strikes a nerve.

[TeeJay]

http://getactive.peta.org/campaign/pink_wo...eo?c=stspinkvid

Yeah i now its sheeps in Aussie country clip, but look at the way they slaughter the sheeps when they arrive in a muslim country and get subject to the great kindness of halal slaughter..I em happy to say both halal and kosher is illegal in my country..

blabla peta this and that i now, i dislike them also.

As said before i em no vegan i em just not a savage or stoneage man.

Cheers

And you think PETA would show something showing halal slaughter in a positive light? Try a little less biassed sources of information next time... I'm not making comments about halal slaughter just because I'm a Muslim, I'm simply stating the facts about it. If done properly, unconsciousness is near instantaneous, with death following closely (while the animal is unconscious) This applies to Humans as well as animals. There was a story in the news not so long ago, about a man who was died as a result of a fight (which he actually provoked) because a blow to his neck tore his jugular, and he bled to death internally. I suspect, that as the bleeding was only internal, the process took longer, but, had it been an 'open wound', he would have been dead even quicker.

What is savage about killing an animal in as humane manner as possible? How about strangling something to death, or snapping the neck of an animal in your hands? Those are not humane methods of slaughter, and would traumatise the animal (especially if it is not killed on the first attempt) Cutting the jugular vein, however, is a near foolproof method of slaughter (providing the blade is sharp, and the person knows what they are doing.

Victoria's post also covers much that I would agree with.

[Pugwash]

Those are not humane methods of slaughter, and would traumatise the animal (especially if it is not killed on the first attempt) Cutting the jugular vein, however, is a near foolproof method of slaughter (providing the blade is sharp, and the person knows what they are doing.

Nice going. Comparing old barbaric ways of killing with other old barbaric ways and saying one isn't as bad as the others. You're not going to win any brownie points with those tactics.

Bleeding an animal to death is not humane. Live with it.

Oh, and don't use "God says it's ok" as an excuse. The crusades were based on that argument and that's another path you don't want to go down.

[Victoria]

Nice going. Comparing old barbaric ways of killing with other old barbaric ways and saying one isn't as bad as the others. You're not going to win any brownie points with those tactics.

Bleeding an animal to death is not humane. Live with it.

At the end of her life, Queen Victoria had a close friend -- her servant, the famous Munshi. He was a Muslim Indian.

Though her Court were aghast at her decision, she allowed him to kill animals in his quarters, according to "Mohammedan" customs, INSIDE WINDSOR CASTLE.

What a long way we British have come.

[TeeJay]

Nice going. Comparing old barbaric ways of killing with other old barbaric ways and saying one isn't as bad as the others.

Bleeding an animal to death is not humane. Live with it.

Which is the more humane method of execution? Strangulation, or severing the jugular? I'm not out to win points, I'm just stating a fact. It is more humane than strangling an animal to death. If the animal is unconscious (which it should be) then it isn't going to suffer. Plenty of the western methods of animal slaughter, which are supposed to be humane, can just as equally only leave the animal dazed or suffering, so the killing blow itself is still traumatic. At the end of the day, the point I was illustrating, is that what one society views as acceptable, another may not, but, the idea of 'tollerance', does not mean forcing that other society to start following the practices of the other.

Oh, and don't use "God says it's ok" as an excuse. The crusades were based on that argument and that's another path you don't want to go down.

I wasn't even going to mention it. You decided, for whatever reason, to 'bring that one to the table'. Does Godwins only apply to references to Nazism?

Arguing for the sake of arguing isn't going to win you brownie points either

[Pugwash]

Which is the more humane method of execution? Strangulation, or severing the jugular? I'm not out to win points, I'm just stating a fact. It is more humane than strangling an animal to death.

Yeah, and that's a strawman. No-one here is saying you should strangle animals instead. Both methods are barbaric yet one is slightly less so. Both methods cause the adrenal glands of the animals to fire up and slightly taint the taste. That hint of metalic taste in your kebab? That's animal adenaline and it's not good for you.

Organic happy meat is by far the tastiest meat I've had. Even though abattoir laws make any unstressed killings almost impossible, anything that's nervous system is taken out in one hit (bolt through brain, decapitation) suffers less pain/stress than less humane methods. In fact, the most humane (or adrenaline-free) method is surprisingly game hunting. Venison from wild deer shot through the skull at 200M by a skilled hunter will get you the cleanest meat you'll ever taste.

[Pugwash]

I wasn't even going to mention it. You decided, for whatever reason, to 'bring that one to the table'.

Er, you mention the reason to kill Halal style is precisely because it's in the Qu'ran. That's "God says so" in anyone's book.

If it weren't religiously prescribed, would anyone insist on Halal-style killing?

[Victoria]

Venison from wild deer shot through the skull at 200M by a skilled hunter will get you the cleanest meat you'll ever taste.

Good.

And I'll thank people to keep their hands off of my shotguns so I can practise the humane killing of deer.

[TeeJay]

Yeah, and that's a strawman. No-one here is saying you should strangle animals instead. Both methods are barbaric yet one is slightly less so.

Strawman my ass, the fact of the matter, is that it is one of the most humane methods of slaughter available. Bt how much, was not the issue.

Organic happy meat

In fact, the most humane (or adrenaline-free) method is surprisingly game hunting. Venison from wild deer shot through the skull at 200M by a skilled hunter will get you the cleanest meat you'll ever taste.

And how many mainstream supermarkets are prepared to pay for hunters to bring in the meat?

Er, you mention the reason to kill Halal style is precisely because it's in the Qu'ran. That's "God says so" in anyone's book.

Where did I say that? Dani mentioned halal, I simply clarified that it is one of the most humane slaughter methods available. I know you like arguing for the sake of it, and I've got better things to do with my time than indulge you

[Edit to add]

I forgot to mention, there's nothing stopping animals from being electronically stunned before being killed in the halal manner.

Edited March 16, 2008 by TeeJay

[Victoria]

Organic happy meat.

[anton]

Victoria, where do you find all these stock photos? Or is it you taking all these photos just for the occasion?

[Victoria]

Victoria, where do you find all these stock photos? Or is it you taking all these photos just for the occasion?

I know right! Ever since FxrAndy posted about the animated avatar, I've been searching Google Images for animated .gifs etc. Found many good sites. Here is one:

http://www.thatimagesite.com/