There Is Such A Thing As The Best...

[Jetsons]

Quite possibly the funniest thing I've read all day... definitely good for a laugh!

Darn Randy, you beat me to this one.

Jet

[jnkay]

The whole point of this forum is to share knowledge. Opinions are great, but they are just that, and they don't really help anyone because everyones' are different.

What every noob and not-so-noob wants to know is how do other versions of the sub compare with whatever they already have or are thinking of purchasing. The only practical way this can be done is for people who own any given version(s) to list the flaws in as much detail as possible, and post pictures from different angles if they can.

The types of flaws on modern subs are well known. Those versions worth listing usually have flaws that fall into three, four or more of these categories:

-solid bracelet

-lack of efinement of bracelet and bad end link interface with case

-For gold: off-color, lack of durability and end link plating vs. solid gold appearance

-bezel turns too easily, often unintentionally, or has only 60 vs. 120 clicks and/or non-genuine sound

-color of bezel and dial (mostly a problem with blue tt subs and LVs??)

-crooked or misaligned markers

-sloppy markers

-crystal doesn't sit high enough above bevel (crystal height can make a big difference in appearance and if correct, can help offset the lack of depth from inadequate rehaut)

-grossly inadequate rehaut depth (an annoyingly prevalent problem with modern subs)

-poor date magnification and/or cyclopse alignment (very common)

-incorrect date wheel color and font

-pathetic luminosity (often inadequate on hands but so-so or decent on hour markers)

-incorrect pearl (often wrong color, shape or depth)

-degree of crispness, color and boldness of printing on bezel insert and dial

-case thickness

-wrong crown guard shape and size

-wrong crown size

-visibility of Rolex crown at 6:00 (often too obvious)

-incorrect markings or other special details

There will still be different opinions as to how correct any of these aspects are for any given version, and some people will get a bad version of an otherwise good rep. which can skew things. But a pattern will emerge and people will be better able to figure out which flaws they can most accept.

For me, I go crazy trying to tell how deep a reahut is from dealer's pictures, and it's very difficult to compare amongst dealers. For example, I know the TW classic ss sub gets it mostly right, but at what cost (in new flaws) versus my ss sub with shallow rehaut but few other major flaws? I think Craytonic got off to a good start in this regard. Maybe the most important flaw of this approach is that some of us are better-equipped to evaluate our own reps because we own or owned gens, and some people only think they know all of the gen features. So, it would help to be able to qualify each reviewer's source of gen knowledge.

[leitztozeiss]

I'm certain that most, if not all, people that I encounter day to day will not appreciate the differences that we obsess about on these boards. But, I wear watches that I like . . . not ones that I think others will like or appreciate.

What's the point of having something that is indistinguishable from the original in a replica if no one knows what an original looks like? Then, why wear an original when no one can appreciate whether it's real or not? For me, the answer is the same for both questions: because I can, because I want to, because I appreciate the difference.

[leitztozeiss]

Just now, Josh posted an LV Ultimate for about $490 delivered, waterproofed and case modded, deep rehaut, servicing and COSC like performance adjustment in 316 stainless. Is this better than Luckyy's MBW LV in 440 for $350? Every minute moves the best target!

Have you seen/felt the difference between an 'ultimate' and MBW? I have. I'd still buy the MBW. Call me an "MBW Fan."

Modded MBW or genuine?

[mdg137]

Nice pic, nice watch, --"MBW fan".

[Brian]

"Echo"drive? So that explains the tick..tick..tick..tick..tick.. it's an echo.

Then it must be REALLY good, huh ?? That present really shocked me. I love the little guy with all my heart and know how caring and giving he is especially at Christmas, but . . . wow . . . really nice two tone, blue face w/date . . . no cyclops though, and is it ever tiny & hard to see . . . but still a beautiful watch.

Oh yea, my ETAs don't really tick . . . they just go wsssssshhhhhh around the dial . . .

Seriously, I have a couple digital watches with altimeters and thermometers and stuff, and they are VERY useful in the backwoods. Can't argue there.

I would think that a trek off into the woods up in your territory, you definitely go well prepared. Got to be a little different than parkin the car, and taking a walk down the trails in the local park here.

And I still like your "durable" tale of smackin the Rollie on the boat railing . . .

8^)

What's the point of having something that is indistinguishable from the original in a replica if no one knows what an original looks like.

Yea, but there are a LOT of people who do know what a vintage Sub/SD looks like. Why do you think a MBW/WM can command the kind of price and respect that it gets ??

Wow, Hey Ubi . . . you sure musta wasted the dogsnot outta your time & $$ on that Daytona, huh?

...and I submit, anyone who thinks another "who has the best sub" thread here is a waste of time needs to read these posts. This is an ever shifting target and never fails to inspire interesting dialogue.

I've read the posts & your post count sure went up with this one, huh . . . 8^)

crys . . . except for the common knowledge that the MBW/WM VINTAGE Subs/SDs ARE the best, because they are so far above all the others out there, it's still rather stupid to ask who has the best. All you're doing is being too lazy to read all the individual reviews and postings that are all over this, and three other boards, and trying to get a handfull of them all together here on your post . . . for everybody's good ????.

The main point is . . . BEST IS SUBJECTIVE !!!!

Who has the best ribs?? How about wings ?? Pizza ?? Who's got the best manifold/carb setup for my TA . . . or should I go with fuel injection?? a turbo ?? and whos?? How about the best finish for my deck ?? Oh yea?? that's what you all think is best ?? BLAAAH . . . the sauce on those ribs tastes like crap . . . to me . . . and you call those ranch wings ?? Whos cattle ranch were they drug thru before they over cooked them ?? That pizza is the best ?? To borrow one from Rodney, "That tastes like low grade dog food." And that carb sucks up twice the gas of my old one for only 8 hp gain ?? And that crap I put on my deck still isn't dry after 3 days !!! But you all STILL think your pick is the best . . . because it's the best for YOU . . . but not for me. Instead of just taking yours, and who ever elses opinions as being the best, I would have done better for myself if I took some time and did some reading and did some research. Go thru the posts on this board, do a search on Subs or SDs, or Omegas or Pateks, and on this dealer or that . . . then do the same on TRC . . . and do it again at RWI . . . and take a look over at WT . . . After doing all that, and reading the replies and what flaws others saw on these reps, I could make a pretty good choice of which one is BEST for ME. It has these particular flaws, but I can live with those. So, again, I can make an informed choice.

If YOU want to do a time saving see who you think has the best ______ thing ?? Start a new thread. Pick which ever watch you want. Subs?? Sure. Go thru the board, and dealer review, and any other forum, use the search button. Make your list of all the posts you find, brake 'em down by dealer, model, price, movement, whatever. Post your thread with your list, and ask anyone who finds a post about one of the ones you have picked to please add a link to that post also. And you, or anyone who finds a post/review on a NEW model from Xdealer to add that to the list also. That way you and whoever wants to can go to one place and find tons of links to all the models and dealers out there on that particular watch, and everyone can read them and decide for THEMSELVES . . . who has the best __________.

B

Edited June 22, 2006 by Brian

[Pugwash]

If YOU want to do a time saving see who you think has the best ______ thing ?? Start a new thread. Pick which ever watch you want. Subs?? Sure. Go thru the board, and dealer review, and any other forum, use the search button. Make your list of all the posts you find, brake 'em down by dealer, model, price, movement, whatever. Post your thread with your list, and ask anyone who finds a post about one of the ones you have picked to please add a link to that post also. And you, or anyone who finds a post/review on a NEW model from Xdealer to add that to the list also. That way you and whoever wants to can go to one place and find tons of links to all the models and dealers out there on that particular watch, and everyone can read them and decide for THEMSELVES . . . who has the best __________.

Hear hear!

[crystalcranium]

I would think that a trek off into the woods up in your territory, you definitely go well prepared. Got to be a little different than parkin the car, and taking a walk down the trails in the local park here.

And I still like your "durable" tale of smackin the Rollie on the boat railing . . .

8^)

Yea, but there are a LOT of people who do know what a vintage Sub/SD looks like. Why do you think a MBW/WM can command the kind of price and respect that it gets ??

Wow, Hey Ubi . . . you sure musta wasted the dogsnot outta your time & $$ on that Daytona, huh?

I've read the posts & your post count sure went up with this one, huh . . . 8^)

crys . . . except for the common knowledge that the MBW/WM VINTAGE Subs/SDs ARE the best, because they are so far above all the others out there, it's still rather stupid to ask who has the best. All you're doing is being too lazy to read all the individual reviews and postings that are all over this, and three other boards, and trying to get a handfull of them all together here on your post . . . for everybody's good ????.

The main point is . . . BEST IS SUBJECTIVE !!!!

Who has the best ribs?? How about wings ?? Pizza ?? Who's got the best manifold/carb setup for my TA . . . or should I go with fuel injection?? a turbo ?? and whos?? How about the best finish for my deck ?? Oh yea?? that's what you all think is best ?? BLAAAH . . . the sauce on those ribs tastes like crap . . . to me . . . and you call those ranch wings ?? Whos cattle ranch were they drug thru before they over cooked them ?? That pizza is the best ?? To borrow one from Rodney, "That tastes like low grade dog food." And that carb sucks up twice the gas of my old one for only 8 hp gain ?? And that crap I put on my deck still isn't dry after 3 days !!! But you all STILL think your pick is the best . . . because it's the best for YOU . . . but not for me. Instead of just taking yours, and who ever elses opinions as being the best, I would have done better for myself if I took some time and did some reading and did some research. Go thru the posts on this board, do a search on Subs or SDs, or Omegas or Pateks, and on this dealer or that . . . then do the same on TRC . . . and do it again at RWI . . . and take a look over at WT . . . After doing all that, and reading the replies and what flaws others saw on these reps, I could make a pretty good choice of which one is BEST for ME. It has these particular flaws, but I can live with those. So, again, I can make an informed choice.

If YOU want to do a time saving see who you think has the best ______ thing ?? Start a new thread. Pick which ever watch you want. Subs?? Sure. Go thru the board, and dealer review, and any other forum, use the search button. Make your list of all the posts you find, brake 'em down by dealer, model, price, movement, whatever. Post your thread with your list, and ask anyone who finds a post about one of the ones you have picked to please add a link to that post also. And you, or anyone who finds a post/review on a NEW model from Xdealer to add that to the list also. That way you and whoever wants to can go to one place and find tons of links to all the models and dealers out there on that particular watch, and everyone can read them and decide for THEMSELVES . . . who has the best __________.

B

OK, I'll try to not get all frothy here again. (hey, I suggest YOU do a search for irate posters who can't understand why pompus posters get so incensed at newbie posters. By-Tor and I went 12 rounds over this a few weeks ago). First of all, if you think my posts in a topic dialogue were meant to pad my post count, then your many references to saving time and effort here are explained and itls pretty obvious you really don't know what a DISCUSSION board is all about. I personally have not visited a pizza and ribs DISCUSSION board but I would expect to find exactly the same kind of threads you so mockingly described. If you get so impatient with questions you deem below you, why don't YOU start "RWG3...The Expert Site". Using terms like "lazy" "Do your own work" etc do not apply here my friend. I HAVE done the leg work, I have done the searches. What I'm looking for is opinion and experience. Isn't that what we're here for? If I had a genuine LV and a MBW LV in my posession and posted a detailed comparison with photos, and three months later some 30 post newcomer had the misfortune of asking "Which is best?", call me crazy and an old f&%$*#$ softie, but I wouldn't jump down his/her throat for being a lazy and "search button challenged". I would actually get some satisfaction and pleasure from having the information they want close at hand. "A time saving thing"??????? What sort of hurry are you in here? "THE BEST IS SUBJECTIVE"????? No kidding genius, that's why OPINIONS are interesting, helpful, interesting etc.... Oh Oh...I'm starting to froth!

[Pugwash]

First of all, if you think my posts in a topic dialogue were meant to pad my post count, then your many references to saving time and effort here are explained and itls pretty obvious you really don't know what a DISCUSSION board is all about.

A discussion board isn't about the experts serving as unpaid lackeys for newbies either. It's about discussion.

Asking "Who has the best sub" isn't discussion, it's demanding lackey-work of people who are fed up of being told what to do by newbs. You wonder why their reactions can be harsh?

Imagine this. Every time we have a newbie, we get THIS EXACT THREAD yet no-one has ever followed up on their promise to research the data and present it. No-one, not a single noob, ever.

The best we ever got was Edge's guide to subs and he's not one of the noobs. You all read this, right?

[hk45ca]

OK, I'll try to not get all frothy here again. (hey, I suggest YOU do a search for irate posters who can't understand why pompus posters get so incensed at newbie posters. By-Tor and I went 12 rounds over this a few weeks ago). First of all, if you think my posts in a topic dialogue were meant to pad my post count, then your many references to saving time and effort here are explained and itls pretty obvious you really don't know what a DISCUSSION board is all about. I personally have not visited a pizza and ribs DISCUSSION board but I would expect to find exactly the same kind of threads you so mockingly described. If you get so impatient with questions you deem below you, why don't YOU start "RWG3...The Expert Site". Using terms like "lazy" "Do your own work" etc do not apply here my friend. I HAVE done the leg work, I have done the searches. What I'm looking for is opinion and experience. Isn't that what we're here for? If I had a genuine LV and a MBW LV in my posession and posted a detailed comparison with photos, and three months later some 30 post newcomer had the misfortune of asking "Which is best?", call me crazy and an old f&%$*#$ softie, but I wouldn't jump down his/her throat for being a lazy and "search button challenged". I would actually get some satisfaction and pleasure from having the information they want close at hand. "A time saving thing"??????? What sort of hurry are you in here? "THE BEST IS SUBJECTIVE"????? No kidding genius, that's why OPINIONS are interesting, helpful, interesting etc.... Oh Oh...I'm starting to froth!

what constantly amazes me is you can ask who's got the best pam or omega po and you will get lots of positive responses but the second you say sub the [censored] hits the fan. i really don't get it. it's like nobody has the balls to say, in my opinion this watch has the best overall look. yea they all have flaws and yea it depends on witch flaws you can live with but damn if you ask for a helping hand some people are just waiting in the wings to cut your nuts off. so much for a disscussion board where everybody shares their opinions and ideas for the good of the members. truthfully, i can't beleive this thread made it this far before this happened. i don't understand why if this type of thread bothers some people. they can't be bothered with such nonsence and lazy people not using the all mighty search button. why do they wast their valuable time talking to such lazy people asking quesions that they feel is below them to answer? you would think they would not bother to respond if their time and knowlage is so valuable. it's hard to figure some people. oh well, i still think this thread was a goog idea, but what do i know, i've only been messing with rolex reps for about 15 years. i'm just a lowly newby and i'm sure i will be told how much i don't know any minute.

[crystalcranium]

A discussion board isn't about the experts serving as unpaid lackeys for newbies either. It's about discussion.

Asking "Who has the best sub" isn't discussion, it's demanding lackey-work of people who are fed up of being told what to do by newbs. You wonder why their reactions can be harsh?

Imagine this. Every time we have a newbie, we get THIS EXACT THREAD yet no-one has ever followed up on their promise to research the data and present it. No-one, not a single noob, ever.

The best we ever got was Edge's guide to subs and he's not one of the noobs. You all read this, right?

Well if that's how you react to a question from a newbie, that it's a demand for information, the keys to the kingdom as such, then you have an overinflated sense of what's going on here and the role you play in it.

Edited June 22, 2006 by crystalcranium

[Jetsons]

hk45ca, the best sub question has been answered many times. However, new and supposedly improved 16610 reps are launched at least twice a year and it's almost impossible IMO to pick just one without the ability to personally handle them all. Photos are the tool that most of us have but it will not communicate the weight and feel on the watch.

I believed the TW best classic Sub was leaps and bounds above the rest when I snagged it a year ago (at its price point) and would make the same decision again. It has the most accurate case to my eyes which was also used by the MBW. It is also very close in feel to THE 16610.

The best Sub by far is the MBW 1680. It has near exact case dimensions externally (no other has this) coupled with an excellent dial . If one chooses, it can be taken to the limit by cramming it with OEM parts with little or no modifications. They are assembled exactly as the gen which is the only Sub that remotely resembles the gen in this regard. IMO, the only way to replicate the genuine article is to replace as many of the rep parts as possible with OEM. The difference is night and day in appearance, feel and functionality.

Which 16610 is "the best" may be entirely subjective and will probably remain so for the forseeable future as new models are continiously introduced. However, this is not the case with the 1680.

Jet

Edited June 22, 2006 by Jetsons

[Pugwash]

Well if that's how you react to a question from a newbie, that it's a demand for information, the keys to the kingdom as such, then you have an overinflated sense of what's going on here and the role you play in it.

If you get asked the same question day-in, day-out, it's not a discussion, it's a job. I know I'm not paid to be here, and I doubt anyone else is.

I don't have an overinflated sense, and I'm still fairly newbie here myself, but when I arrived, I read the rules first and all the intro posts that the experts graciously made. I learned very, very quickly that asking who had the best sub would label me whipping boy until I started earning a rep.

I'm sorry that you think that everyone is having a go at you, but this isn't the first time this thread has cropped up and it's not the last.

[leitztozeiss]

Who has the best 1655? Now, that should be the question of the day . . .

[MAHLER]

Just now, Josh posted an LV Ultimate for about $490 delivered, waterproofed and case modded, deep rehaut, servicing and COSC like performance adjustment in 316 stainless. Is this better than Luckyy's MBW LV in 440 for $350? Every minute moves the best target!

The datestamp however it's wrong.

For that price is not really perfect!!!

[crystalcranium]

If you get asked the same question day-in, day-out, it's not a discussion, it's a job. I know I'm not paid to be here, and I doubt anyone else is.

I don't have an overinflated sense, and I'm still fairly newbie here myself, but when I arrived, I read the rules first and all the intro posts that the experts graciously made. I learned very, very quickly that asking who had the best sub would label me whipping boy until I started earning a rep.

I'm sorry that you think that everyone is having a go at you, but this isn't the first time this thread has cropped up and it's not the last.

You just proved my point. No one is asking YOU. If your hackles get riled then stay out and save your precious time and typing fingers. There are plenty of other threads on this site worthy of your expertise. If your defense is "veterans politely treated me like crap when I first came here and asked stupid questions so I'm just following the intolerance tradition" then do us ignorant slobs a favor and step out. I'd sooooo much rather participate in a discussion thread where enthusiastic questions are asked than to be lectured to by 6 megaposters who berate me and others for being "too lazy to do a detailed search". I have searched the archives for the meat of the discussion here. Guess what? There is little if anything pertaining to MBW modern sub replicas. Questions and answers about the fluid topic of the best of the most copied watch in the world are not going to be answered in a 3 month old thread. I've been a period woodworker for 20 years and I can't tell you how many times the trade publications run "Best router for use in a router table" polls and articles. Know why? Because the product is always changing. What the heck is the problem in asking "Hey, does Luckyy really sell 440 grade stainless Submariners and has anyone out there had one in their hands recently?" other than apparently messing the hair of a few so called experts who believe "we've been there...done that".

[Pugwash]

You just proved my point. No one is asking YOU. If your hackles get riled then stay out and save your precious time and typing fingers.

I think I must have badly expressed my point as that's not at all what I was saying.

I didn't get jumped upon as I read before posting, I don't consider myself a super-expert and I posted a link to an article in which all subs, both modern and vintage are detailed.

Either my writing skills have completely left me or you're reading my posts prejudicially, assuming I'm going down one path while I am in fact trying to retain some neutrality at this point.

I'll try again, only I'll post my points clearer so I don't force people do infer my meaning. Here we go.

We've had this thread a zillion times. Posts on this very subject (albeit not precisely as the 'outsourcing' purspeed appears to need) have been put up in the welcome sections and no-one reads them. If this place is to retain a character that is not like the old RWG, then new visitors need to learn the character of the forum and abide by the look and feel lest this place become a wild west of flame wars and airbrushed porn.

No-one reads sticky posts.

[Craytonic]

My mother used to tell me "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all." I think it is a good rule most of the time.

I don't see the harm in posting a useful reply/answer to this sort of thread if one is so inclided (as I was). If you think it is a waste, don't waste your time with a reply. I had some spare time and felt like opining an answer. Next time someone else may feel the same way. You can probably guess from the title of the post what it is about and just not click on it if you don't want to help the poster.

I think posting "do a search" or this has already been answered is the worst response. If people do indeed search, they will just get a zillion threads where the poster is told to do a search. If people only post useful replies, instead of just jumping all over the poster, it will make the threads more useful to the reader and more concise at greater benefit to the site generally. Having five "do a search" replies just clutters the site and does no one any good.

[Pugwash]

I think posting "do a search" or this has already been answered is the worst response. If people do indeed search, they will just get a zillion threads where the poster is told to do a search. If people only post useful replies, instead of just jumping all over the poster, it will make the threads more useful to the reader and more concise at greater benefit to the site generally. Having five "do a search" replies just clutters the site and does no one any good.

At no point in this thread did anyone say "Do a search". It's not particularly common on this forum. This thread went on for pages until people basically said "Why can't you just tell us?".

This thread isn't oldies berating newbies, it's newbies flinging mud at oldies for not being helpful enough, or berating them over percieved attacks that never actually happened here.

[Craytonic]

I just don't see the point in a 100 word diatribe on not answering a question. It seems best to either answer the question or not and move on...

Taking 10x the time it would take to type a 1 sentence useful response to opine about questions seem silly.

[audemarsdan]

This is a great board with good members, but I have noobs (and I'm a noob) contacting me out of fear for asking some simple questions.

One of them is which ________ is the best. I agree that all reps have pro's and con's, but let's be real, there is a hierarchy that most would agree to.

For example, most would consider the MBW 1680 the best. Does that mean Trusty's or Josh's are no good? Not at all, but the most accurate rendition is the MBW.

We live in an age of relativism, but let's not go overboard now. We're not looking for the meaning of life or the nature of the universe here. It's a watch, folks, and a mildly retarded copy, at that.

I think that a sticky where folks can vote for the top ____________ would be very helpful.

(flame suit on)

Read my article on the subject at The Replica Watch Report.

Richard Brown

The Replica Watch Report

[crystalcranium]

At no point in this thread did anyone say "Do a search". It's not particularly common on this forum. This thread went on for pages until people basically said "Why can't you just tell us?".

This thread isn't oldies berating newbies, it's newbies flinging mud at oldies for not being helpful enough, or berating them over percieved attacks that never actually happened here.

Oi veh!!!

BTW, I have read the information on Subs in the newbie section. It was posted 10 days ago and it is already somewhat out dated.

I guess my gripe is if someone has a question that is too basic for your tastes, what is the compulsion with needing to let them know how "unwelcome" or "un-curteous" their post is? Let those of us who love to stand around the water cooler and chew on "How about those Yankees huh, think they're gonna take it this year?" for the umpteenth time have our air space. I didn't see anyone yelling "why won't they tell me what I want to know?" just some haughty disgust with "There they go again!"

[Craytonic]

I also think there is somewhat of a hierarchy around here with knowledge.

The questions I ask some of the most knowing members probably are silly and simple to them (i.e. ubiquitus). They are also probably answered somewhere else on the site and I just couldn't find it. But usually I get some help.

Likewise I think in turn those of us who aren't in the expert category owe it to the board to help with the easier questions when we can. Perhaps we will learn something from the poster another day.

[Pugwash]

BTW, I have read the information on Subs in the newbie section. It was posted 10 days ago and it is already somewhat out dated.

I guess my gripe is if someone has a question that is too basic for your tastes, what is the compulsion with needing to let them know how "unwelcome" or "un-curteous" their post is?

btw, you can always help update it.

[crystalcranium]

I also think there is somewhat of a hierarchy around here with knowledge.

The questions I ask some of the most knowing members probably are silly and simple to them (i.e. ubiquitus). They are also probably answered somewhere else on the site and I just couldn't find it. But usually I get some help.

Likewise I think in turn those of us who aren't in the expert category owe it to the board to help with the easier questions when we can. Perhaps we will learn something from the poster another day.

Imagine that!!!

I'm not trying to change the world here but I do think the well must have been somewhat poisoned from the start. An initial attitude can pervade any institution. When I was in residency, 36 hour shifts, no matter how tough, no matter how many mistakes were made by exhausted doctors in training, were the norm several times a week because that's how the old guard did it and damn the newcomers demanding consideratrion and a life, they are going to pay their dues the same way they did. This was the norm until some high profile mistakes in NY hospitals 15 years ago got national attention and now, hospitals that require more than a carefully restricted #'s of hours from their doctors in training can loose their accreditation. Some attitudes and traditions are just plain stupid. I thought we were here to share knowlege and ideas. If a new resident asks "How do I start this IV", I sure as hell don't tell them "Go ask a nurse kid, I'm here to answer the important questions" and believe me, I've run into my share of a-holes who would do just that. That attitude of "propriatory knowlege" has always irked me. What's the point in making a novice feel like an imposition as well as an idiot?

OK, I am offically foaming at the mouth now!!!!

Edited June 22, 2006 by crystalcranium