Posting in other peoples sale post

[Seadweller4000]

I would simply ask that we can leave interfering into some other VIP member's sale at the authority of STAFF.

Members who find a sale not acceptable or dangerous to noobs that are not grown up enough to do a little research or ask, can just PM a moderator here. They are honest and do a great job.

But it should not lie in the authority of other members who may just have an interest to ruin someone else's sale.

My 2 cents.

[chad]

I am only going to write one quick thing here responding to the fact I was trying sell my watch other than something that it was. I am not going to respond in a negative way to any of the comments attacking my character.

I got the price from a watch that sold for 840 months. This watch was an HBB lite with upgrades of AR and a bezel.

I subtracted 300(bezel) from 840 and posted it for 540.

A black magic with full mods is equal or greater than the 1100 one on angus site. So for 840 (just like the one that sold before) you could have an 1100.

Is that flawed logic?..... Maybe so but based on previous sales I thought not. I think we all can agree the HBB pricing is FLAWED LOGIC!

Do I think it is ok to charge more for modded(or anything that requires an investment in time) pieces than the sum of the parts?

Yes

Why? because I have done it in the past. I hate the wait. Sorry, but it is true. I have paid more than 100 for a double AR that is install and completed. I would do it again right now.

Can I see how someone would find it wrong(or foolish to pay) or to ask more for these?

I certainly can, but this is a free market isn't it?

I simply was not being "dishonest" and that was my problem with whole issue. People telling me what "profit" I was making(meaning inaccurately), that I was ripping people off and posting my PM's out of context and inaccurately.

I asked exactly 75 more than I put into the watch and I had not worn the watch.

I asked the first posted to remove the post before I engaged in any conversation there. You guys have not seen the nasty PM's that went along with the posting.

Kenberg, I am not sure what to say. I feel like if I did the same to another's sales post and started posting pm's, i probably would get banned. Leaving the post up in the sales forum and raking me over the coals is certainly shocking to me. Other boards' admins have emailed me about the fact this is poor form.

Carlsbad, My comments were never directed to you. (just wanted to clear that up)

P.S.

Thanks for all the supportive emails and PM's. Many from the Admin's at other boards. I would have cancelled my account this morning otherwise.

[andreww]

may i break it down? nah im not arguing but may i break the down cost? this would be more educational then the thread crap because it didnt break down any cost.. it just says $130 markup blablablablablablabalbalbalabla.. for me the 130 mark up is by andrew and josh on their HBB expensive so yeh.. thread crap them.. because i'm not kidding this is what i paid when i did my mods on my watches

cost

1. silix prime hbb --> $400 <-- plus shipping like u said?

2. sending the watch to one of the modder for crystal popping --> $30 (assuming it's via registered airmail.. but i'm guessing ppl would send via ems?)

3. get the crystals out to k2222 poland from the modder (i got charged $10 for the postage and $30 for the crystal popping and put back in place) --> that's $40

4. paid k2222 another $55

5. waiting like a mutt at home sitting there wondering having a fantasy what the watch will look like and sometimes have paranoid feelings when u see some disaster happening during mods.. afraid of custom seizure, etc. --> priceless

6. if u've never had any ar coating runs sometimes u do have crystal remnants and have to go into re-run --> another wait, etc. --> priceless

7. if he was to sell his watch, Chad has to pay postage to his buyer (i'm assuming once again EMS? $30? fair price? because from aus EMS cost 70$)

so with the cost break down i came up with ---> 400 + 30 + 40 + 55 + 30 = $555.. and i'm guessing he's selling it for $530? ok thats a negative 25$ for him.. and oops should we take into accoung this bs from ur joshes and andrew that states "we dont dropship" but the watch comes DOA? how much would that cost? id say the QC control and no dropship crap that would cause the buyer another $30 to send back?

hell if u ask me the scammer here is not chad.. for me his pricing is ok not the best but ok.. but for spending 800$ for ceramic bezel crap that would come DOA and u need to spend an extra $30 to get it sent back to china? man u got to be joking me that no1 has ever complained about that.. but chad's u ppl make a big deal out of

/me shakes head

Okay, first off he never said where he got the watch, but it has become common practice in sales threads to quote Josh and Andrew's pricing. That is BS! When you buy from J&A you are buying the watch + service + guaranteed delivery. A reseller can offer nothing but the watch, so even mentioning pricing from J&A is a joke. Chads HBB was essentially Silix's $350 version. Shipping the entire watch to Jacob for AR should be doable for about $100, much cheaper if he popped the crystal and sent that alone. So, a total investment of $450 or so. To ask upwards of $600 is simply gouging.

Heck, if you want to pay the premium for the AR service that is fine, BUT YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO KNOW WHAT YOU ARE PAYING FOR. Nobody crapped on Chad's thread. They simply informed the consumer, which is what this place is all about...

...isn't it?

[RWG Technical]

Why did Chad's post get so much attention, when we have had 2 PAM's advertized, not once but listed twice now, for $1500 or close to 3 times what the watch cost new.

EDIT (one PAM has a DW upgrade, one a DW and Lume)... but the asking price is 3 times the new cost, and no one says a word (well I did, but it was concerning a $15 freebie...)

Do we have two standards? Ignore certain overpriced ad's, but jump on others??

RG

[By-Tor]

Leaving the post up in the sales forum and raking me over the coals is certainly shocking to me.

We don't delete or censor any controversial/problematic threads and sweep them "under the carpet". I told you that yesterday in PM. Things don't work like that here. If you think it's personal, there's nothing I can do. But it's not.

Why did Chad's post get so much attention, when we have had 2 PAM's advertized, not once but listed twice now, for $1500 or close to 3 times what the watch cost new.

These two PAM's have nothing done to them... but the asking price is 3 times the new cost, and no one says a word (well I did, but it was concerning a $15 freebie...)

Do we have two standards? Ignore certain overpriced ad's, but jump on others??

Good question. I have no idea why it was just Chad's thread that "exploded" like that. Maybe everything just started from the "wrong foot", and it snowballed from there?

[andreww]

I asked exactly 75 more than I put into the watch and I had not worn the watch.

Nobody ever accused you of being dishonest. But IMO, if you feel that you need to make profit on your watches, become a dealer or a modder. Let me ask you this, if the watch died a week after you sold it, what recourse would the buyer have had? That is what you pay for when you buy from any of the big money dealers that you mention, Service. You can not offer that, and your price should reflect that.

[chad]

I certainly see your point but that does not change the fact that I am willing to pay 100 extra for certain mods that are time sensitive if I decided I need a watch.

I have just never seen a double AR watch go for the price of the parts alone. The board set the standard on that. I watch the auctions a bit.

There are many modded watches for sale that "I" could do for cheaper also but I respect the time and money that they might have put in it when viewing an ad.

You make a valid point and I can see it from that side.

Nobody ever accused you of being dishonest. But IMO, if you feel that you need to make profit on your watches, become a dealer or a modder. Let me ask you this, if the watch died a week after you sold it, what recourse would the buyer have had? That is what you pay for when you buy from any of the big money dealers that you mention, Service. You can not offer that, and your price should reflect that.

[arminvanbuuren]

Okay, first off he never said where he got the watch, but it has become common practice in sales threads to quote Josh and Andrew's pricing. That is BS! When you buy from J&A you are buying the watch + service + guaranteed delivery. A reseller can offer nothing but the watch, so even mentioning pricing from J&A is a joke. Chads HBB was essentially Silix's $350 version. Shipping the entire watch to Jacob for AR should be doable for about $100, much cheaper if he popped the crystal and sent that alone. So, a total investment of $450 or so. To ask upwards of $600 is simply gouging.

Heck, if you want to pay the premium for the AR service that is fine, BUT YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO KNOW WHAT YOU ARE PAYING FOR. Nobody crapped on Chad's thread. They simply informed the consumer, which is what this place is all about...

...isn't it?

lol this watch+service+guaranteed delivery is wat i call a joke n gouging imo.. coz if anything chad would provide a better watch(notdropshipped and dont need to send the watch back if theres a problem which again cost u another $30 bux and 70 bux in my case)+service(would not shout at his customer for buying his watch)+guaranteed delivery(no need for customs risk).. so if J&A who's been scamming u all this time n u stand over all this time can charge ridiculous prices and have u defending him.. why cant chad? i mean i've mentioned it chad could probably provide 1000000000x better service, watch and guaranteed delivery better.. so yeh that was my point.. but i guess like they said ud always can see other ppl's flaw but not ur own.. im saying this to protect u from buying J&A just like how u protect these "noobs"

as for the watch being dead.. i've sent over 20 or so watches in my experience.. and all of them have arrived save.. this is because it wasnt dead in the first place.. so im willing to guarantee in CHAD's case.. that his watch wouldnt die in a week.. unless u smash it or drop it.. in which im sure j&A wouldnt replace that.. because andrew sent me a UPO with a missing bezel insert he sure wouldnt replace it.. he just said "send it back" thats good service indeed ouft!

Edited April 22, 2008 by arminvanbuuren

[peepshow]

Why did Chad's post get so much attention, when we have had 2 PAM's advertized, not once but listed twice now, for $1500 or close to 3 times what the watch cost new.

EDIT (one PAM has a DW upgrade, one a DW and Lume)... but the asking price is 3 times the new cost, and no one says a word (well I did, but it was concerning a $15 freebie...)

Do we have two standards? Ignore certain overpriced ad's, but jump on others??

RG

I was thinking the same thing, Rob, but I hesitated to add fuel to the fire. I'm sure the "logic" there is that the pieces are no longer available. The parts to build it, however, can still be had....

It's a conundrum!

[archibald]

Why did Chad's post get so much attention, when we have had 2 PAM's advertized, not once but listed twice now, for $1500 or close to 3 times what the watch cost new.

EDIT (one PAM has a DW upgrade, one a DW and Lume)... but the asking price is 3 times the new cost, and no one says a word (well I did, but it was concerning a $15 freebie...)

Do we have two standards? Ignore certain overpriced ad's, but jump on others??

RG

The biggest difference is that you can't get either of the PAMs anywhere except the used market anymore, and hardly anyone's willing to sell. So, yeah, pieces like that tend to appeciate 100 or 200 percent. And people did comment, albeit more gently, about the price of ajoesmith's pieces.

But yeah, probably old-school members get a little bit of undeserved deference, just like the drooling old guy at work who's been slugging it out in the same cubicle for 40 years does.

I knew this thread was coming after last night's entertainment in the sales area, and I love the just-let-me-make-my-$100-in-peace posts. Sorry, TT stated the policy which IMO is exactly the right one. The guys that for whatever reason feel they have to make every last cent off their used fake watches no matter how small-time it makes them seem are free to do so. Bring on the $100 empty, no-bracelet noob cases, the oops-forgot-to-call-this-lite HBB's. And get ready for the rest of us to make sure the noobs know exactly what they'll be getting for their money.

[Corgi]

This has been discussed before... why is there a second thread made about it?

If people wanna sell overpriced things then it is my duty, as an aspiring AMERICAN, to make others aware!

[archibald]

The parts to build it, however, can still be had....

It's a conundrum!

Cool! I'll take 3 "officne" engraved swiss soprod 2892's, a honpo 28 dial, and an individually serialed 63 caseback, please.

[dippy]

Personally, I believe that protection of newbies is essential to maintain the true integrity of our hobby. But that protection can only go so far. Most educated rep buyers have performed a basic level of research to determine if a watch is worth the price asked in their own eye's. Myself, I usually go check out the genuine to get a "feel" for its presentation, size, and fit. Then I make a decision about purchasing the rep. I see both sides of this story and yes I personally agree that the price asked was too high. Thats why I chose to not buy it. I looked, I liked, but I chose to shop elsewhere. I didn't get ugly about it, hell I didn't even post, I just moved on. Honestly, I think that some people are looking for a good arguement every now and then. A simple, "I don't understand, please explain it" post might have sufficed.

These "fads" seem to come in trends, and every one that I have seen over the past 6 or so years have all had one or two heated topics. Remember when the "old factory" Seamaster first came out? the first asian 7750 movements? The Poljot vintage Daytona's? The Panerai craze back in '05 and '06? Then the MBW 'red' watches? Now its the new Hublot's.........................It has and probably always will happen!

But we can't take these things personally, its our hobby after all, this is what we enjoy. Fighting and arguing during an engagement of joy is like oil and water, the two don't mix.

Sellers, if someone comments, thank them for their time, listen to what they have to say, adjust if needed or simply ignore. Again, an educated buyer can see through the smoke. There is no need to get ugly. If your piece doesn't sell, maybe step back and look at the reasons why. I currently have two very nice pieces up for sale on TRC. My inital asking price was very fair in my mind taking into consideration accesories and mods, but they haven't sold and I adjusted as necessary. Yeah, I may lose a few dollars (or pounds depending on how you look at it), but I'd rather lose a little than lose it all by pissing off the entire community (oh wait, I think I already did that once ).....................

Keep things in perspective and enjoy the time we have, life is too short already.......................

Edited April 22, 2008 by dippy

[RWG Technical]

The biggest difference is that you can't get either of the PAMs anywhere except the used market anymore, and hardly anyone's willing to sell. So, yeah, pieces like that tend to appeciate 100 or 200 percent. And people did comment, albeit more gently, about the price of ajoesmith's pieces.

But yeah, probably old-school members get a little bit of undeserved deference, just like the drooling old guy at work who's been slugging it out in the same cubicle for 40 years does.

I knew this thread was coming after last night's entertainment in the sales area, and I love the just-let-me-make-my-$100-in-peace posts. Sorry, TT stated the policy which IMO is exactly the right one. The guys that for whatever reason feel they have to make every last cent off their used fake watches no matter how small-time it makes them seem are free to do so. Bring on the $100 empty, no-bracelet noob cases, the oops-forgot-to-call-this-lite HBB's. And get ready for the rest of us to make sure the noobs know exactly what they'll be getting for their money.

I agree. On the PAM's I always put myself in a newb's place, having just come from www.scamfakewatch.com and not knowing any better.

It's in the interest of the community to state the fact that the watch is indeed not available anymore, it cost $600 new, and it had a genuine high quality ETA inside and the parts or mods cost XX $$. That is full disclosure, and if I was a new member and knew this, I could make an informed decision on wheather I want to spend $1500 for a $600 watch with some upgrades. If I don't know any of this information, I would assume the watch was $2000 or more new, and is a bargain at $1500...

Not stating anything in a blatenly overpriced sales ad, is a disservice to the forum members in my view.

Same for a RBJ watch with "$1200" in mods, that we all know is questionable at best. It's been proven that RBJ doesn't do half of the mods he charges for, and those that he does do are questionable and of poor quality. This needs to be put in the open, again so members can make informed decisons. "Wow a $1200 modded watch for $600, it must be a good one..." not if you know the history.

Why are we so scared to speak up, or when we do speak up we are crapped on. If you state the facts in each of these cases, no personal attacks, just the facts so that everyone knows everything, then we all gain. I know I would be [censored] as hell if I unknowlingly bought a modded watch expecting $1200 in quality workmanship, only to find out I got junk, especially so if the members here didn't want to speak up so as to not offend anyone...

RG

[Sturb]

I'll ask again, who are WE to decide what is a fair price? I've seen lots of reps sell for far more than what I'd pay for them. Does that mean the buyer wasn't happy with the watch he/she got for the price he/she paid?

We are the consumer (potentialy) It's basic economics. If the consumer base feels a product is over priced they will not pay that for it.

[z3k0]

The biggest difference is that you can't get either of the PAMs anywhere except the used market anymore, and hardly anyone's willing to sell. So, yeah, pieces like that tend to appeciate 100 or 200 percent. And people did comment, albeit more gently, about the price of ajoesmith's pieces.

But yeah, probably old-school members get a little bit of undeserved deference, just like the drooling old guy at work who's been slugging it out in the same cubicle for 40 years does.

I knew this thread was coming after last night's entertainment in the sales area, and I love the just-let-me-make-my-$100-in-peace posts. Sorry, TT stated the policy which IMO is exactly the right one. The guys that for whatever reason feel they have to make every last cent off their used fake watches no matter how small-time it makes them seem are free to do so. Bring on the $100 empty, no-bracelet noob cases, the oops-forgot-to-call-this-lite HBB's. And get ready for the rest of us to make sure the noobs know exactly what they'll be getting for their money.

Now, that is what I call flawed logic - if you have a rep watch that is not available any more, it's OK to make a profit, but if you are selling watch that is available, but you want to recoup you investment in it, it's not OK ? Well, I guess, it would be best that "used fake watches" be sold for PP/postage expenses only, so poor noobs don't have to worry what will they get for their money ...

regards

[Guest carlsbadrolex]

Although I was one of the first to comment in Chads sales thread I felt that I did it without attacking his character of even the price of the watch. I stated that the price was not unreasonable... but that others may think so. If this in any way effected Chads ability to sell the watch, I am sorry. That was not intended. My posts were directed at him, and not at a potential customer. I too have been guilty (although I have NEVER asked more than what I had invested in a watch) in having to reduce the price of a watch to sell it. Its very simple... what I feel a watch is worth may be different than what others think it is worth. THIS WILL NEVER CHANGE.

I assure you I WILL NEVER again post in another persons FOR SALE thread... Neither in support of their sale or questioning it.

To comment on another related topic that has been brought up in this thread... Why is it alright to place such high values on a modders work? There are no less than ten posts in the two threads that mention HOW DIFFICULT it is to get an appointment, what the cost of shipping back/forth are, and how great the mods are. Why should someone else (a potential new owner) pay the price for something that YOU decided to do? If you want the "master" to touch your watch, then wait in line, pay the premium and have the work done. Its that simple. But to add value to a watch because YOU had to wait, YOU decided to ship it off without finding a local watch maker IMHO is non-sense. And I feel this way for ALL modders, regardless of who they are or where they are at.

I have EVERY watch that I own/sell professionally services and sealed. I DO mention that in the sale ad's... BUT I do not ad value to the watch because I chose to have this done. I guess it is just difference of opinions... And that will never change.

Then again, maybe I should have asked $100 more for every watch I have sold on this site. So if each buyer would be so kind as to please send me an additional $100 to make up for this grievous error on my part, I should be able to go finish paying for my Gen Pam this weekend!

[arminvanbuuren]

Although I was one of the first to comment in Chads sales thread I felt that I did it without attacking his character of even the price of the watch. I stated that the price was not unreasonable... but that others may think so. If this in any way effected Chads ability to sell the watch, I am sorry. That was not intended. My posts were directed at him, and not at a potential customer. I too have been guilty (although I have NEVER asked more than what I had invested in a watch) in having to reduce the price of a watch to sell it. Its very simple... what I feel a watch is worth may be different than what others think it is worth. THIS WILL NEVER CHANGE.

I assure you I WILL NEVER again post in another persons FOR SALE thread... Neither in support of their sale or questioning it.

To comment on another related topic that has been brought up in this thread... Why is it alright to place such high values on a modders work? There are no less than ten posts in the two threads that mention HOW DIFFICULT it is to get an appointment, what the cost of shipping back/forth are, and how great the mods are. Why should someone else (a potential new owner) pay the price for something that YOU decided to do? If you want the "master" to touch your watch, then wait in line, pay the premium and have the work done. Its that simple. But to add value to a watch because YOU had to wait, YOU decided to ship it off without finding a local watch maker IMHO is non-sense. And I feel this way for ALL modders, regardless of who they are or where they are at.

I have EVERY watch that I own/sell professionally services and sealed. I DO mention that in the sale ad's... BUT I do not ad value to the watch because I chose to have this done. I guess it is just difference of opinions... And that will never change.

Then again, maybe I should have asked $100 more for every watch I have sold on this site. So if each buyer would be so kind as to please send me an additional $100 to make up for this grievous error on my part, I should be able to go finish paying for my Gen Pam this weekend!

because ppl are interested in buying mods i guess.. and if ppl dont want to pay for the mods then they won't buy it.. but if u look at the WTB section.. ppl are willing to buy these mods.. and yes mods do have value too.. if u choose to sell ur own mod for free then its u.. yes its ur fault for not charging this $100 previously.. maybe u should do it next time.. if u know the invisible hand theory.. the market will punish the scammers.. so hey if u could make that extra 100$ go for it.. as with chad's i doubt anyone would buy it.. even noobs have brains?

but then again lets do double standard.. like u said modded watch shouldnt be added the mod value.. so if u have any modded MBW vintage rolex.. can u sell it to me in its original price less the used price!!! like u recomended? coz wow that would be great!! im serious.. im interested!!

Edited April 22, 2008 by arminvanbuuren

[peepshow]

We are the consumer (potentialy) It's basic economics. If the consumer base feels a product is over priced they will not pay that for it.

Exactly my point! You think it's too pricey, don't buy it. After the watch sits unsold for a couple of weeks, the seller will probably reduce the asking price. Your money speaks louder than your words ever will.

There is no need to post "this is overpriced" in a FS thread. Period.

[Sturb]

Exactly my point! You think it's too pricey, don't buy it. After the watch sits unsold for a couple of weeks, the seller will probably reduce the asking price. Your money speaks louder than your words ever will.

There is no need to post "this is overpriced" in a FS thread. Period.

If you take it to the extreme and try and sell a rep for gen prices would somebody be justified in speaking out? Where do you draw the line? This isnt ebay, it's a forum.

[arminvanbuuren]

If you take it to the extreme and try and sell a rep for gen prices would somebody be justified in speaking out? Where do you draw the line? This isnt ebay, it's a forum.

meh for me its the buyer's choice really.. its not misleading unless the buyer describes something wrongly n claims its a gen in then they should speak out.. but if someone is telling the truth and want to sell anything they want.. they can..

i can go out to the city tomorrow and sell my underwear for $10,000 and i dont think i'll get the thread crapping chad copes.. but just my underwear won't get sold.. but then if i say it's elton john's underwear, its a diff story.. so yeah if they want to sell it for gen's price i think its the buyer's responsibility to know what mods have been done and the real value for that gen!..

if the buyer wants more info they could post a thread n ask for the valuation.. i dont think anyone should butt in the fs thread and make rubbish of the ad because at the end of the day its their priviledge!

anyway i guess this is my last input in here.. ppl are entitled to their own opinion i guess... this is just mine.. mind u tho i dont encourage ppl to overprice their used watch..!!

Edited April 22, 2008 by arminvanbuuren

[By-Tor]

It got very personal on what I feel is a long standing member of the fora (a paying contributor) and to allow members to hold his feet to the fire for 3 pages was despicable in my opinion. Several of the members who were most critical of his sales thread are not even paying members of this forum. PMs should have been sent by administrators here advising him to adjust his post with content or price accordingly. It was not. Chad pleaded for mods to step in, and delete. Even his topic title was changed to reflect this request. His request went denied. At the very least the post should have been set invisible until the Admin could evaluate and advise accordingly.

If we start to delete or set all unpleasant/controversial threads invisible, it will cause even bigger problems. Then the membership starts screaming "censorship". It has happened before. When I saw the thread for the first time, it was no longer a sales thread, when the item and the descriptions were deleted from the initial post... it was just an ugly, personal flamefest. That's why I closed it... because threads like that have ALWAYS BEEN TREATED in similar manner.

Perhaps we need to arrange a vot

[capice]

interesting reading, waisted energy I think..... I agree with Rob but it will never change unless you live strict according the forumrules.

There always will be "members" with another point of view who just want to make money and there is nothing wrong with that but be honest and don't lie about the merchandise......it happens , even with our dealers and it will not change regardless what is said here

Do some reading before you buy, ask questions when in doubt

Just my 2 cts

[Stephane]

Why are we so scared to speak up, or when we do speak up we are crapped on. If you state the facts in each of these cases, no personal attacks, just the facts so that everyone knows everything, then we all gain. I know I would be [censored] as hell if I unknowlingly bought a modded watch expecting $1200 in quality workmanship, only to find out I got junk, especially so if the members here didn't want to speak up so as to not offend anyone...

RG

A bit off topic, actually totaly off topic

Ziggy, I admit I'm the kind of "not saying to not offend anyone" or simply not spoil the party @RWG.

At the end of the day you are right, we all should post "the facts" and only the facts when bad experiences arrise.

[peepshow]

...be honest and don't lie about the merchandise......

I don't believe there was any misrepresentation or dishonesty in this case...