Child Labor Cases Uncovered in China

[KB]

@Teddyboy I am sure the purchasing officers of large western department stores do in fact send representitives to look over the factories they deal with just as a precaution to anything getting out to western media, however thats all they would check as it's the lowest price possible that they want,

They would have little or no concern if somewhere down the line some of the parts that make up their product is actually the result of child labor.

Ken

[robj]

If regulation and enforcement are lacking, if organized labor and watchdog groups are non existant, and if the media is state run where's the risk?

Thats exactly right the major importers of Asian consumer items are far more responsible for the situation than a few rep making factories. With the ever more competitive economic climate and with the now emerging Asian economies like India/Pakistan/Bangladesh etc the factories are forced to use cheap labour or fail no if's or but's about it.

The question is and it's a simple one would your average consumer be willing to pay maybe twice as much for the same item if it was guaranteed that no forced labour was used I personally don't think so not because they don't want to but because they can't afford to.

If you read the board you will read a large number of members complaining about making better copies when it is made the same voices are complaining it's too expensive. So how can anyone win? This same ideology is to be said of the slave labour issue yes they all want the working conditions to be perfect and no they don't want to pay any extra so there is no answer to it

[teddy boy]

@Teddyboy I am sure the purchasing officers of large western department stores do in fact send representitives to look over the factories they deal with just as a precaution to anything getting out to western media, however thats all they would check as it's the lowest price possible that they want,

They would have little or no concern if somewhere down the line some of the parts that make up their product is actually the result of child labor.

Ken

Ken, I think that western retailers want more than just the lowest price. They want the lowest price possible that will allow them to perserve some semblance of a socially responsible reputation. The rub is whether the retailer must actually pursue socially responsible outcomes or if simply marketing social responsibility will do the trick. In other words, does the retailer actually have to do good or can they simply claim that they're doing good? The jury is still out on that issue. I think that you are correct that they will have no concern if someone down the line makes their product with slave child labor provided that it doesn't make it's way back to the retailer's own reputational doorstep.

[Virgil Hilts]

Ok, here's the deal. If it can be definitively proved that our watches are being made with underage labor, I'm done with the rep game in Asia. We can rationalize all we want, but if the tables were turned, we wouldn't want our children doing those jobs. It really is that cut and dried. I'm not a Pollyanna and I know that the act of one person won't make a difference, but we all have to draw the line somewhere. This is where I draw mine.

Ken, I think that western retailers want more than just the lowest price. They want the lowest price possible that will allow them to perserve some semblance of a socially responsible reputation. The rub is whether the retailer must actually pursue socially responsible outcomes or if simply marketing social responsibility will do the trick. In other words, does the retailer actually have to do good or can they simply claim that they're doing good? The jury is still out on that issue. I think that you are correct that they will have no concern if someone down the line makes their product with slave child labor provided that it doesn't make it's way back to the retailer's own reputational doorstep.

[KB]

Ok, here's the deal. If it can be definitively proved that our watches are being made with underage labor, I'm done with the rep game in Asia. We can rationalize all we want, but if the tables were turned, we wouldn't want our children doing those jobs. It really is that cut and dried. I'm not a Pollyanna and I know that the act of one person won't make a difference, but we all have to draw the line somewhere. This is where I draw mine.

But this is the whole point that I have been tring to make....Yes the possibility is there that child labor works on our watches in some way but this possibility is equal to any product that we buy from stores that is made in china.

@Teddyboy it is nice to have that belief but I doubt that it would be fact, a store like walmart will have very strong social responsibilities within the borders of the good old USA, they will also have strong social responsibilities anywhere they present in the western world, but lets face it they would not go to the expense or time of tracking each and every part/process of every product (thousands) that they buy from China.

Ken

[eddhead]

I am sorry to one and all.. I got a bit depressed and by this and tied one on. I am am no condition to reespn=md tonite but will read the posts and follow up tomorrow. Again sorry if I offendd anyohone

[POTR]

[censored], Walmart is buying all the chinese made rep stuff and putting their own private labels on them, undercutting their other suppliers... are you going to buy the Magnavox DVD player for $70 or are you going to buy the (Walmart) SV2000 that is identical except for the label for $40? You'll buy the Walmart private label... now, if Walmart can sell it for $40, you know it costs less than $10... and if it costs less than $10, who the hell is building it?

IF child labor is involved in assembling DVD players, then it's probably snapping boards in place, or plugging in cables and tightening the screws...

IF child labor is involved in assembling CHEAP WATCHES... then it is probably snapping Quartz movements into overpriced fashion watches at every store at any given mall... as well as the $4.95 specials at Walmart... NOT assembling mechanicals...

The factories that are building 'legitimate' watches are the same ones that are producing the high quality reps, real factories, they just go to some lengths to hide it... quality reps are not built by WangLo in his garage with a basket of parts and handcuffed kids... get real, if kids are involved anywhere it's with the Canal Street quartz, not the kind of reps seen around here....

[TeeJay]

I think by putting together the posts of Dave, Ken and POTR, we get a realistic view of the situation:

- Reps are not being made in what we in the west, would consider 'factories', but built in back rooms, on the family dinner table.

- Busts in the industry show the arrest of consenting adults. Given that these arrests are made public to 'scare people away' from reps, surely showing photos of kids being hauled away would be more emotive... Why not show that? Simple answer: Because they aren't building these reps...

- It is more likely, that child slave labor, is being used in production lines for mass-purchassed items, such as DVD players, rather than rarity purchases, like replica watches...

Sure, the issue needs addressing, but, as I mentioned before, there's not anything that we can actually do about it, which will have an effect, but, it's more likely that our 'other' consumer purchasses (DVD players, etc) are more likely to be made by child slave labor, rather than our replica watches...

My own .2c:

- Right now, people have it in for China. There's no denying it. Sure, as a country, it might have its problems, but, what right do we in the west, have to force our western values on their society, and make them change? None.

- Replica goods are frequently linked in such articles, as 'supporting terrorism'. Terrorism is the 21st Century equivelent of Communism, and the irrational fear of it, which existed in the McCarthy era. Sure, there are terrorists in the world. Sure, there are Muslim Extremists who want to blow themselves up in the name of Allah. But, chances are, it's not going to be happening in your neighbourhood any time soon, and it's pretty unlikely that funding from the rep industry goes towards it. By writing this article, the authors are probably trying, subconsciously, to get people to thinking (from all those other articles on the replica goods industry) that China supports (in some backward way) 'terrorism'.

Articles like this, are nothing more than anti-China/anti-terrorist propoganda. Now, I'm not for one nanosecond suggesting that people should support China's human rights abuses, nor that people should support terrorism. What I am pointing out, is that propoganda (of any kind) cannot be read and taken entirely at face value. It must be examined from all sides. Also, one must remember who propoganda is aimed at: The uninformed masses who know no better. People informed about a subject, see right through propoganda as they know the truth about its lies.

Fight the power, Komrades

[JohnG]

Articles like this, are nothing more than anti-China... propoganda.

I have to strongly disagree here. The NYT like all media organizations is run by human beings whose interests, beliefs, and politics must necessarily affect editorial decisions. They choose to publish certain articles over others based not only on relevance or importance but on politics as well - all of the media does it because total objectivity is an absolute impossibility. That said, it would be wrong to extrapolate from there that they have a disdain for the truth and fabricate content in order to manipulate their audience (that is what propaganda does). The staff at the NYT, as human beings, are of course imperfect, but they are also among the most serious, sincere, and honest journalists in the world.

China is a hot topic in the media because it is the new global economic powerhouse, is poised to someday eclipse the United States, and because its staggering transformation in the last decade necessarily creates conditions and phenomena that are immensely topical. At some level do resentment, fear, or jealousy motivate and/or create demand for many articles about adverse conditions in China? Undoubtedly. Does that mean they rise to the level of propaganda? Absolutely not.

I also want to make a point that has already been made before: even if it is true that the assembly of these watches occurs in non-traditional "factory" conditions such as in homes or small workshops, somewhere the parts are being produced in large scale machine shops that employ equipment lacking in many if not all of the most basic safety features mandated by law in the United States and other developed nations. I recently read a blog written by a young Asian-American female doctor who has been working in China and the number of work-related injuries, amputations, and maimings (due mostly to unsafe equipment) is staggering.

As I have said repeatedly, like others I will not shun reps until I see specific evidence of child slavery being employed by those that manufacture them. But neither will I try to whitewash, minimize, or write off as media propaganda what is going on in many areas of China. This is not a judgment on China's culture because what is happening there has little to do with culture and everything to do with rapid industrialization. Approximately one hundred years ago when the United States was undergoing a similar transformation from an agrarian economy to a a manufacturing economy, all of the same conditions and abuses were seen and it is certainly accurate to say that worker exploitation is far from dead in America.

[teddy boy]

But this is the whole point that I have been tring to make....Yes the possibility is there that child labor works on our watches in some way but this possibility is equal to any product that we buy from stores that is made in china.

@Teddyboy it is nice to have that belief but I doubt that it would be fact, a store like walmart will have very strong social responsibilities within the borders of the good old USA, they will also have strong social responsibilities anywhere they present in the western world, but lets face it they would not go to the expense or time of tracking each and every part/process of every product (thousands) that they buy from China.

Ken

Ken, I am by no means suggesting that western retailers are motivated by a genuine desire for social responsibility but they do need to project this image in order to protect their name. Sellers of rep merchandise have no such incentive because they have no name to protect. My point was simply that manufacturers who sell to western retailers have more incentive to project a socially responsible image (realizing some incentive is more incentive than none). The difficult issue is whether these manufacturers and the retailers to whom they sell achieve this goal through genuine efforts to promote socially responsible outcomes or through marketing. I'm confident that they will do whatever is most profitable. In other words, is it more profitable to be socially responsible or simply market social responsibility. Your point on the opague nature of activities down the channel distribution would suggest that it's the latter (i.e. market social responsbility without really doing anything).

[peepshow]

Not sure what you mean, "mate" (hard to write, as I see) but do as you wish, we all have our opinions.

If there

[KB]

Just one final thing this has now reached the Aussie papers and as in the OP's reference there is no metion of the replica trade, I think it would be fairly safe to assume that whilst there may in fact be cases of child labor within the rep trade somewhere, these kids were working for legitimate manufacturers.

Ken

[JohnG]

Well, we're all techincally doing something immoral by infringing on copyrighted material, so by that rationale everyone should stop buying reps because it's "wrong".

While I would certainly agree that child exploitation in ANY form is a horrible thing, I find it somewhat hypocritical that we, as replica collectors, are trying to claim some sort of moral high ground.

It is entirely possible to distinguish, in one's own heart, between two "wrongs" - the one being diluting a watch manufacturer's profits and brand image and the other being coercing defenseless children into working for little or no money in subhuman conditions. Many people don't have any problem making that distinction and making it does not make them a hypocrite. It is a reflection of one's priorities.

[JohnG]

I think it would be fairly safe to assume that... these kids were working for legitimate manufacturers.

Why?

[peepshow]

It is entirely possible to distinguish, in one's own heart, between two "wrongs" - the one being diluting a watch manufacturer's profits and brand image and the other being coercing defenseless children into working for little or no money in subhuman conditions. Many people don't have any problem making that distinction and making it does not make them a hypocrite. It is a reflection of one's priorities.

Wrong is wrong and illegal is illegal. Now, is knicking someone's wallet on the same level as murder? No, of course not. As you state, there are levels/degrees involved. I disagree that it's not hypocritical, both activities are illegal. Just because you find one morally acceptable and the other not doesn't change that.

Edited May 1, 2008 by peepshow

[crystalcranium]

Wow...what a bunch of self-rightous criminals we are!!! Like Kenberg said over and over again...we partake in an illegal trade. To try to take the high road in this is pretty hypocritical. If Eddhead wants to swear off all rep buys and burn his stock because of ethical issues...that's just fine but the moral sparring here among us "fake watch buyers" is pretty amusing. It reminds me of the scene in the Godfather when the heads of the five families take the high moral ground in allowing the drug trade, piously declaring "I don't want it near schools...I don't want it sold to children". Yeah, thanks a lot...that stance was really effective.

[teddy boy]

Wow...what a bunch of self-rightous criminals we are!!! Like Kenberg said over and over again...we partake in an illegal trade. To try to take the high road in this is pretty hypocritical. If Eddhead wants to swear off all rep buys and burn his stock because of ethical issues...that's just fine but the moral sparring here among us "fake watch buyers" is pretty amusing. It reminds me of the scene in the Godfather when the heads of the five families take the high moral ground in allowing the drug trade, piously declaring "I don't want it near schools...I don't want it sold to children". Yeah, thanks a lot...that stance was really effective.

Personally I see a pretty big difference between infringement of intellectual property rights and child slavery but maybe that's just me.

[jkerouac]

I have mostly bypassed this thread until now, but decided to read it after seeing the child slavery article in my local paper. I apologize for not reading every word in every post, but I think I get the general drift.

I also watched the recent TV documentaries on the replica trade, as did my wife. She was particularly concerned by the strong insinuations that the rep trade could be funnelling money to terrorist organizations.

Now I don't take these unsubstantiated allusions to terrorist links very seriously, but taken together with child labor and slavery, apparent disregard for quality control in products from toothpaste to kids toys, as well as mind-boggling pollution, and the Chinese manufacturing sector has some very serious issues that need to be dealt with.

And contrary to some comments that were made here, I don't think American businesses such as Walmart or clothing companies who out-source to China have a very good record of monitoring what goes on in their factories. (The same goes for companies in other countries as well).

But we can influence policy makers in government and in private business to push for change, and to empower the Chinese people themselves to push for change. Right now the Chinese seem to see themselves as punching bags, and they desperately want to be taken seriously as a legitimate world leader. But they will never be equal to the western powers, or even India, until they address their problems and become a more open and responsible society.

Will I stop buying Chinese? No. Quite frankly I think it would be impossible. But do the Chinese problems influence my purchasing decisions to some extent? Absolutely.

[eddhead]

This thread got a lot of traffic while I was out last night. After reading through the posts, I am not sure there is much more to add people feel the way they do and I doubt anyone's mind will be changed. I understand Ken and other's view that child slave labor is not necessarily used in the factories that manufacture the parts used to make our watches. I also understand the perspective that legitimate businesses may be sourcing parts from factories staffed with child slave labor. Still, my view has not changed. I just think there is a much stronger likelihood that these factories are guilty of this kind of behavior than there is that factories that produce goods for legitimate businesses are. I might be wrong, but that is how I feel. At the end of the day, everyone has to make their own choice. Anyway, thanks for keeping the discussion so civil.

[JohnG]

Wrong is wrong and illegal is illegal. Now, is knicking someone's wallet on the same level as murder? No, of course not. As you state, there are levels/degrees involved. I disagree that it's not hypocritical, both activities are illegal. Just because you find one morally acceptable and the other not doesn't change that.

By that argument everyone who has ever jaywalked, exceeded the speed limit, parked illegally, or committed any number of other minor infractions, would be a hypocrite if they ever lamented the occurrence of another (slightly more heinous) illegal activity. Now it is worth pointing out that at least the U.S. residents on the board are not actually engaged in an illegal activity merely by possessing a rep watch. But I am sure that all of them have broken some law at some time therefore they are surely hypocrites too.

I don't buy it. But if you feel like a hypocrite for speaking out against child slavery, by all means, be quiet.

[JohnG]

It reminds me of the scene in the Godfather when the heads of the five families take the high moral ground in allowing the drug trade, piously declaring "I don't want it near schools...I don't want it sold to children". Yeah, thanks a lot...that stance was really effective.

What a great analogy.

I am being sarcastic.

[eddhead]

What a great analogy.

I am being sarcastic.

i was not going to comment further on this, but I feel compelled to agree with Juan and others on this point. I will accept a point of view that stipulates that without proof that child slave labor is used, it is needless to boycott this trade. I do not agree with it, but I accept it. What I find patently absurd is the notion that because the nature of this hobby is illegal anyway, child slave labor is no worse than other characteristics of replica trading such as copyright infringements, counterfitting, tax evasion etc... That is like saying jaywalking is as bad as murder because they are both illegal. I am sorry but anybody who thinks we have no right to take a stand on this issue because the very nature of this hobby is all illegal anyway is just rationalizing, as is anyone who considers child slave labor the equivalent of a 12 year old taking a legitimate job of her/his own volition.

[KB]

@ eddhead please understand that I am in no way trying to influence your decision but the fact is you have taken this press release and coupled it with the rep trade, that is hypothetical at best as there is not the slightest suggestion that the kids were in the employ of replica manufacturers and yes it would have been stated.

We have seen before, and this will become more common as the Olympics move closer, China takes every opportunity to show the west that they are tackling and cleaning up the rep trade (wasn't an agreement signed between China and the USA on this late last year?), the simple fact is these kids were not making reps, in the Aussie papers the reports stated the simalarities between these kids and the child slaves rescued from the brick factories last year!

I have not at any point denied the possibility of child labor in the rep trade, in China of course it's possible, but to many in this thread are just assuming that because the rep traders are dark/gloomy/evil they were the ones that kidnapped these kids.

The fact is that working for the rep trade in China is not a frowned on career choice, the contacts that you make with the factories are all young straight out of university who are headhunted by rival rep makers just as in any normal business, if Chinese customs stop their items they actually are expected to return the goods not destroy them, last year police raided my suppliers bag factory after charging them and fining them they returned all their machinery and told them to set up somewhere else.

So yes there is a high level of acceptance in the east that many in the west just don't understand.

Ken

[TeeJay]

I have to strongly disagree here. The NYT like all media organizations is run by human beings whose interests, beliefs, and politics must necessarily affect editorial decisions. They choose to publish certain articles over others based not only on relevance or importance but on politics as well - all of the media does it because total objectivity is an absolute impossibility. That said, it would be wrong to extrapolate from there that they have a disdain for the truth and fabricate content in order to manipulate their audience (that is what propaganda does). The staff at the NYT, as human beings, are of course imperfect, but they are also among the most serious, sincere, and honest journalists in the world.

China is a hot topic in the media because it is the new global economic powerhouse, is poised to someday eclipse the United States, and because its staggering transformation in the last decade necessarily creates conditions and phenomena that are immensely topical. At some level do resentment, fear, or jealousy motivate and/or create demand for many articles about adverse conditions in China? Undoubtedly. Does that mean they rise to the level of propaganda? Absolutely not.

I also want to make a point that has already been made before: even if it is true that the assembly of these watches occurs in non-traditional "factory" conditions such as in homes or small workshops, somewhere the parts are being produced in large scale machine shops that employ equipment lacking in many if not all of the most basic safety features mandated by law in the United States and other developed nations. I recently read a blog written by a young Asian-American female doctor who has been working in China and the number of work-related injuries, amputations, and maimings (due mostly to unsafe equipment) is staggering.

As I have said repeatedly, like others I will not shun reps until I see specific evidence of child slavery being employed by those that manufacture them. But neither will I try to whitewash, minimize, or write off as media propaganda what is going on in many areas of China. This is not a judgment on China's culture because what is happening there has little to do with culture and everything to do with rapid industrialization. Approximately one hundred years ago when the United States was undergoing a similar transformation from an agrarian economy to a a manufacturing economy, all of the same conditions and abuses were seen and it is certainly accurate to say that worker exploitation is far from dead in America.

That's cool, and I agree, there isn't any falsehood involved. I just consider articles like this to be propoganda, simply because of their emotive potential (which is unlikely to be unintentional) and how they (as articles) fit into the current political landscape

[peepshow]

By that argument everyone who has ever jaywalked, exceeded the speed limit, parked illegally, or committed any number of other minor infractions, would be a hypocrite if they ever lamented the occurrence of another (slightly more heinous) illegal activity. Now it is worth pointing out that at least the U.S. residents on the board are not actually engaged in an illegal activity merely by possessing a rep watch. But I am sure that all of them have broken some law at some time therefore they are surely hypocrites too.

I don't buy it. But if you feel like a hypocrite for speaking out against child slavery, by all means, be quiet.

Perhaps hypocritical is too strong? Ironic, then. Surely you have to recognize the *irony* in someone who is supporting (financially) an illegal enterprise then lamenting a different illegal aspect (possibly, I agree there has been no mention of a link to replica goods) of that same enterprise?

I'm sure the kool aid drinkers that believe this is supporting terrorism would have us all strung up for for THAT, let alone child exploitation, and they would feel justified in doing so. The point is we don't *know* what happens to our money on the other end of the Western Union/PayPal/Moneybookers line.

At best the rep industry is loosely tied to this activity and even the shutting down of ALL replica goods manufacture wouldn't put an end to it.

That's all I have to say on this matter.