To help the community

[JuiceMaker]

Time & again, I see newbies posting their frustrations & problems of a transaction they recently had, & some senior members would criticize them for not sorting out the problems out privately, first, with the dealer.

The seniors say that "only if it's not solved then vent out your problems on the forum, give the dealer a chance to sort it out first". They insist that not solving the problems privately, first, is not helping the community.

I see some irony here.

To effectively help the members on this forum is for everyone to have knowledge of the "TOTAL" details of the good & bad issues that happen in the transactions.

To only reveal & shed light on the issue, once the problem is solved, only creates a biased & abstract view on the outcome. We don't know the full story so it's very easy to misinterpret the reality & we can not correctly make an assessment on it.

If a member receives a defective watch, then he/she should be encouraged, & not be afraid, to tell all of us the problems from the very beginning. Then keep us informed with updates of how the dealer handles the issus & how it's resolved or not.

It's only through this method that we, all, have a "balanced" view & expectations on the reality of our rep hobby. Otherwise, seeing only the good side of this hobby give the newbies a very unrealistic expectations when they get their first rep.

I wonder why are some senior memebers so opinionated & stubborn in doing business their way???

Could it be that some members are being "sponsored" by the dealers on this forum???

I'm speculating on this because many times I read some of the replies from seniors & they seem to have so much "stubbornness" invested in their views that makes me wonder if they're getting paid (or getting some reward) to support the dealers???

I didn't want to say all this on this forum, but I think it needs to come out in the open. I'm sure there are some of you, just like me, who have been wondering why newbies are being "bashed" for their posts on their sour experiences.

I'm pretty sure I'm gonna get some "bashing" for saying all this, but I said it already, it's too late, oh well, let the "bashing" beginning

[KB]

You need to understand that the dealers must themselves buy from the factories, many problems you see are not the fault of dealer as such but a problem that has come straight from the factories.

In many cases dealers (dropshipping) will not even know of the problem before alerted by the customer, therefore by bringing it straight to the board you are not only unfairly accusing them of bad salesmanship but you have also failed to give him any chance to fix the problem.

Ken

[doc savage]

In that case, why haven't we cut out the middleman yet? According to TWP, the wholesalers are willing to ship to individuals; but somehow no one knows who they are even in a community this size.

[RLudlowe]

I didn't want to say all this on this forum, but I think it needs to come out in the open. I'm sure there are some of you, just like me, who have been wondering why newbies are being "bashed" for their posts on their sour experiences.

I don't think anyone is being "bashed", simply told not to be an alarmist.

Stuff happens that the suppliers can't control - watches get damaged in shipping, customs hold-ups, unseen damage etc.

Not giving suppliers a chance to respond paints an unfair picture, the problem may well be something they have no control over. There will be plenty of time later to report "I had a problem and X resolved it quickly" or "I had a problem and X did nothing" But by jumping the gun and reporting too early you can make a good, responsible supplier look like they are unresponsive when they in fact are doing their best to keep their customers happy.

By all means, report on your transactions, and don't forget to report when you have a good experience as well.

But you can't do a movie review if you've only seen the first five minutes of the film.

[cornerstone]

Newer members should certainly be helped and supported.

When there's a problem it's ideal to report it, but it's also fair enough for senior members to say, "relax, it'll be probably be okay." If a collector has been sending watches out for year after year without fault, the chances are that it's all going to be okay.

And of course, members have their own favourites according to their own preferences - I think personal opinions are to be expected.

Entire threads should be, and always are, a conversation - not just a one-way vent.

[TwoTone]

Entire threads should be, and always are, a conversation - not just a one-way vent.

Excellent summation...

Added to my signature...

Double T

[Richard Tracy]

In that case, why haven't we cut out the middleman yet? According to TWP, the wholesalers are willing to ship to individuals; but somehow no one knows who they are even in a community this size.

I for one have great interest in pursuing this possibility...

Let's explore this in more detail,...

[lanikai]

JuiceMaker Posted Today, 03:28 AM

I wonder why are some senior members so opinionated & stubborn in doing business their way???

Could it be that some members are being "sponsored" by the dealers on this forum???

I'm speculating on this because many times I read some of the replies from seniors & they seem to have so much "stubbornness" invested in their views that makes me wonder if they're getting paid (or getting some reward) to support the dealers???

could you be more specific and give some examples ??

I speak for myself but I am sure like myself most members with time under their belts are talking from experience,.. after buying and dealing with collectors for so long.. as far as "sponsored".. or talking money under the table so to speak.. that is really blowing smoke ..!!! ... how many transactions have you made ??

and this has been said enough ... but it is the nature of the business which happens to be illegal.. I think all of the RWG collectors back their sales ... it may take time and not in the time frame we are used to because of logistics... i still am waiting on some repairs to return .. but they will return .. i have had more defective watches (that have always been replaced) than i can remember.. in other words your "seniors" have a track record of information.. weather the new members care to follow "experience" or just think they know better is up to them .. the point is everyone is here to help.. but what is frustrating is to spend time out of the day explaining.. answering Pm's and then the new member goes the opposite way.. a short time later he or she will post on the board and whine about just the thing they were warned against... then do you blame "seniors" for taking the approach which you may call "stubborness"...

I mean .. common sense tells you this is a unique hobby and not subjected to the normal guidelines of buying from "shop NBC" ...

granted there are those who can be a little more tactful.. this may in times be due to the different cultures and languages .. but the bottom line is RWG offers more support and information than you can find on line .. (I'm sure the other rep forums are also supportive) ..but what do we do ?? call out your collector ?? I have solved my issues with my collector in private.. in the past if the collector has left me holing the bag.. then simple.. i "speak with my wallet"

it's a numbers game... luck of the draw... how the stars are aligned.. take your pick .. but regardless.. I and we... as a community are not perfect .. but tell me where you will find the positive support as you will here.. not just for reps... gotta take the good with the bad man...

just my 2.....

[KB]

In that case, why haven't we cut out the middleman yet? According to TWP, the wholesalers are willing to ship to individuals; but somehow no one knows who they are even in a community this size.

This is only partially true, the factory that dealt with TWP may have made this comment but I am sure they were not thinking of the ramifications of hundred's (thousands?) separate transactions going on instead of a handful of middle men buying large bulk.

The first thing you will notice is that you will never see the prices that a dealer gets, 2 or 3 watches doesn't warrant the discount that 50 to 100 get's.

Then there's the finding of the reputable suppliers, believe it or not there are as many scammers actually based in China as there are scam sites on the net and to get to the factories one needs to either spend time in the actual country researching exactly where the factories are or you do it the hard way like I did.

I personally spent close to a year going through Asian trade sites and tracking suppliers back to the point of manufacturer (and being burnt.....twice) before I found the supplier I now have.

At the end of the day it is really so much easier to sit down on your computer in the safety of your own home and pay a small (in my case anyway) markup with the knowledge that your items will arrive or be replaced with no stress on you.

Ken

[Pugwash]

Could it be that some members are being "sponsored" by the dealers on this forum???

Absolutely not.

The closest we came is I got a free watch to review once and it was fully disclosed. Anyone shill-reviewing would be spotted fairly easily.

[lanikai]

kenberg Posted Today, 12:42 PM

At the end of the day it is really so much easier to sit down on your computer in the safety of your own home and pay a small (in my case anyway) markup with the knowledge that your items will arrive or be replaced with no stress on you.

Thank you for stating that point Ken.. I would rather pay a little more markup .. knowing that if the product is defective i will not hassle nor stress about getting a replacement .. and parts if need be..

doc savage Posted Today, 04:40 AM

In that case, why haven't we cut out the middleman yet? According to TWP, the wholesalers are willing to ship to individuals; but somehow no one knows who they are even in a community this size.

Remember, TWP made this statement under extreme (IMO) duress ... usually when something is too good to be true .. it is too good to be true..

and since there are so many scammers that can call themselves "factories" this would never be a safe bet...

[fotoman]

We, go through the same crap with dealers that everyone else deals with - some good transactions, some bad. Were not sponsored. However, just like in any business world relationship, the better relationship you have the more likley someone is going to go out on a limb to help. Because they want to keep our business. There is no shortage of folks that would like to sell on this forum.

Now, having done this for several years - we have experience and know how these things go. When something is out of the ordinary, its brought up and handled. Also, most of us have had dealings with all the collectors and know how they operate and we know when we read a story that is out of line, there is more to it.

As it relates with direct sales - you will learn that china is a nasty place for newbs - like ken said, lots of scams, lots of scammers ect ect ect. Having someone who speaks chinese, who has the power to call the factory to task when they send out a crap watch and to get it fixed is VERY valuable. Thats what your paying for, an agent to do business for you in China.

i don't think anyone is discouraged from explaining their experiences, they can write reviews - and, when they post here about problems, i think the community helps people along with the "unwritten process" to communicate and work it out. Sometimes it takes a long time. i've been trying to get a decent BCE for 2 months now - and hopefully i'll have it in a week or 2.

[doc savage]

This is only partially true, the factory that dealt with TWP may have made this comment but I am sure they were not thinking of the ramifications of hundred's (thousands?) separate transactions going on instead of a handful of middle men buying large bulk.

If they (wholesalers) are willing to dropship an order to a third party at the time it is placed, then it is essentially all small separate transactions. The bulk of the work is the shipping, not receiving the payment. Wholesalers DO tend to only accept unsafe payment methods (WU, MoneyGram, wire transfer), making testing the waters a risky proposition--but you probably knew that.

Remember, TWP made this statement under extreme (IMO) duress ... usually when something is too good to be true .. it is too good to be true..

and since there are so many scammers that can call themselves "factories" this would never be a safe bet...

The simple fact that your order is drop shipped throws "too good to be true" right out the window. Of course it's true.

Yeah, there are a lot of fake wholesalers, and hundreds more who sell inferior or misrepresented product. BUT there are definitely wholesalers out there who sell super reps reliably--the "collectors" take your money then the wholesaler ships you the watch.

It becomes a safe bet as soon as you find the right source; ask your favorite collector.

[KB]

If they (wholesalers) are willing to dropship an order to a third party at the time it is placed, then it is essentially all small separate transactions. The bulk of the work is the shipping, not receiving the payment.

Not true sorry, the bulk of the work is dealing with the customers, all the Emailing back and forth while they decide what they want and ask all the numerous questions that every customer does is why you are paying the middle man, it is basically a full time job for the dealers, all the factory needs is...send this watch there.

It is also the dealers who must follow up when customers get antsy and of course supply the tracking, I assure you any factory that said they are happy to take this on really doesn't know what it entails.

Ken

[doc savage]

Not true sorry, the bulk of the work is dealing with the customers, all the Emailing back and forth while they decide what they want and ask all the numerous questions that every customer does is why you are paying the middle man, it is basically a full time job for the dealers, all the factory needs is...send this watch there.

It is also the dealers who must follow up when customers get antsy and of course supply the tracking, I assure you any factory that said they are happy to take this on really doesn't know what it entails.

Ken

I'm not claiming that the "factory" is itching to sell to individuals, just that they WILL sell to individuals if the order is placed. Are you trying to say they wouldn't? Of course they want to sell in bulk but if you order an item or three as a sample they are going to send it. Whether you get the same level of weird customer service the cartel offers is beside the point; you probably won't.

[KB]

Ok that's fair enough Doc but now for the tough question.........Who is going to do the leg work and find the source for you?

Also please remember your original statement was "Why haven't we cut out the middle man?", I have simply been explaining why and that is there is a big difference between one or two members finding a factory and buying direct to the whole community trying to do so, the factory sales rep's just don't have the resources to handle that much traffic.

Ken

[JuiceMaker]

I think I opened up a bad can of worms.

@lanikai

please don't get upset or angry, no one said you had any wrong doing, I was not attacking you.

[JuiceMaker]

regarding the speculation that some members are being "sponsored" by dealers...

it was simply a speculation!!!

now that we know that members are not being "sponsored" it clears things up.

it's good to know.

having said this, how would anyone know if no one asked this question???

[POTR]

Some noob asks the same question every four months or so... that's how.

[omegaunit]

There will always be issues with reps especially with the movements. Problems can show up after a few weeks or months of wearing. I accept this as the rep reality.

The problem I have is with obvious flaws or attempts to get away with sending defective product.

Dial markers can fall off during shipping, acceptable. Glueing a retention [censored] on a bracelet is not.

I don't mind having the "middleman" as long as they stand by what they are sending you. There seems to be a lot of drop shipping going on especially by dealers that say they don't do so. Since dealers may not know about the flaws the watches have, it is a good idea to post the experiences here.