Why RWI has removed Josh and Andrew as dealers

[ExtraExtra]

As most, if not all members already know that there is some sort of price fixing/cartel going on for years. Finding an evidence to this does little IMHO. This is no different than what goes on in other markets.

Putting the kudos and good for you aside, what are you willing to do about it?

[perry563]

Yup:

1: Don't be a [censored] or you'll get kicked off.

That should be it.

Thats fine but this is an illegal activity so it is most probably common practice to try to fix prices and do everything else necessary to make as much money as possible.....in other words...no rules. These boards which in many ways act as an liason between the dealers and those who want to buy reps should have guidelines that all "respected dealers" would be required to follow. If what we are saying is that none of them would ever agree to any guidelines then that is valuable info in of itself that should be told to those who read posts and buy watches through dealers who list products in these forums. I guess the real question would be.....

why are there no rules of conduct for "respected" dealers?

There should be so that everyone at the very least knows what is expected of them. ANY organization, any entity, any business that has no rules to govern them will run amok.

[Jawo]

We don't know of all the closed door conversations that corporations have involving price fixing, and I am sure we are all victims of it in common goods we purchase. I have had experiences both good and bad with Andrew, but in the end he made things right. I had a nice chat with Andrew once and he told me that him and Josh supply most of the gen watches to the factory for replication. So if you look at the number of items on their sites that state "made from genuine", they have contributed a great deal of money to help produce the nice reps we wear today. We do not have access to the back doors of the rep world to see how the factories, distribution or dealers truely operate. I believe that Josh and Andrew hold a lot of weight when it comes to the factories and have great influence to the design, pricing and availability of the reps. Do I agree with the alleged price fixing? No I don't, but I don't have all the pure facts behind the scenes. If you don't agree with their practices, then don't buy from them. We still have ablilty to purchase from many other fine dealers available to us. I like buying from A&J because of their ease of purchase with credit card and their massive selection of goods. I have always known of their prices to be a bit higher, but I don't mind because of my purchasing motives. A tv could cost much more at Best Buy than Costco but people still go to Best Buy to buy goods. We are all very analytical in these forums because of the wealth of knowledge and atmosphere that surrounds us. Keep in mind that there is no "MSRP" set by the factories. The pricing is set by the dealers and only the dealers.

[vric]

ok to resume 4 long pages: Here we go again ?

[ExtraExtra]

Keep in mind that there is no "MSRP" set by the factories. The pricing is set by the dealers and only the dealers.

That is true IMHO. Let us all not forget that we have a lot to do with the improvements to the reps - you can see this in the latest models that came out. We should not expect the prices to remain as they were 2-3 years ago.

[jake48]

Anybody who has been around for any length of time knows the "Cartel" is no joke. I have been buying watches from Josh and Andrew for the past six years. I consider Josh a friend and he still is - BUT

we have always had an agreement - business is business. As far as I am concerned - kudos to RWI - Josh and Andrew made a "business" move and this time it went too far. In the end, I have no doubt it will all work itself out and we (the customer) will be better for it.

I have been privy to some of the "behind the scenes" stuff and trust me - RWI did the right thing and time will vet this out.

Edited July 26, 2008 by jake48

[perry563]

To change the subject for a second....who is the incredible blond that wants attention in Jawo avatar?????????

[dabouncer72]

I don't think those posts on the other forum can be considered any "evidence" at all. First of all, Joshua and Andrew already have good business already no matter what, so why would they do anything like that? And anyways, how and why exactly a factory not supply other dealers? The factory would be losing business that way, but if it did, it probably woldn't be based on what one dealer told the factory. On rwi I read that there are three dealers that named Andrew. Well, without really any evidence but just rumor, these dealers might have planned something like this just to take the most profitable dealers down. I'm not saying any of this for sure, but just speculation and my 2 cents

[perry563]

The other thing that bothers me is......All the evidence I have seen quotes Andrew and nothing concerning Joshua. So why are both banned?

I always speculated that they are one in the same so does this mean that the boards knew all along that this is the case and this is why both are banned at the same time?

[Jawo]

Her name is Elisha Cuthbert. She is a Canadian actress that lived close to me. I have met her a few times and she is now dating Dion Phenuef of the Calgary Flames. Some of you might know her from the TV show "24".

To change the subject for a second....who is the incredible blond that wants attention in Jawo avatar?????????

[supermanx]

Basically it amounts to each board has the option to add or remove dealers at their chosing. There needs to be no rules, dealers presence here is a courtesy to the dealer. Each board has dealers that the others doesnt (Hont at RWI, Eurotimez here, sead at RG, ect)... It was RWI's choice to no longer support Josh and Andrew. This is not an equal opportunity forum, this is not a court of law (which VARY GREATLY depending on the country)...

1. It may not do anything to Andrew and Josh sale, but that wasn't the point. The point is based on the information that was received from multiple dealers over an extended period of time, RWI chose to no longer vouch for them.

2. It may harm RWI by loss of member, but again that is not the point. The admins thought it was the right thing to do and they did it.

3. It may result in a loss of traffic from Josh and Andrew's site since they removed links to RWI, again traffic patterns were not a concern. What we felt was best for the forum and the members as a whole is what the decision was based upon.

Anyone is free to purchase from anyone they want, ioffer and dhgate are full of hundreds of dealers, the other boards have dealers... But that does not require RWI to continue supporting dealers that they do not feel support the long term welfare of the rep community. Those that are upset that we made a choice for you, your free to leave and pursue another board, or start you own... then come back and let us know how easy it is to deal with these types of issues.

[Jawo]

Because it all goes to show the perceived connection and relationship of A&J. They consider them as "one". I agree that it is not fair to bring Joshua into this if the issue didn't not like evidence to associate him either. As far as I am concerned, they are still 2 separate dealers. The way they run there business is simular, but they are truely 2 different people. You can get a very good feel of someone's demeanor by just text communication. Joshua is very nice and reserved. Andrew is outspoken and agressive. This is evident in all my communications with them.

The other thing that bothers me is......All the evidence I have seen quotes Andrew and nothing concerning Joshua. So why are both banned?

I always speculated that they are one in the same so does this mean that the boards knew all along that this is the case and this is why both are banned at the same time?

[client9]

How does a factory not supply certain dealers? I'll tell you.

The amount of money the dealers are making off these forums is incredible. These forums make up a huge percentage of their sales. Andrew, being the biggest seller, has the clout to make special deals with the manufacturers.

He says to them: in return for blocking certain dealers who don't play by my rules, I will give you a bigger cut of my profits, or I will buy wathces from you at a higher price. Of course, they agree. This causes other dealers to set their prices to what Andrew demans, therefore, causing prices on the rep forums to go through the roof. The point isn't to ban all buyers in china, the point is to control the few that are called "trusted dealers" on the rep watch forum, which number about ten. Since we don't buy from those outside the "trusted dealer" network, the prices become artificially high for all of us.

In other words, he is screwing all of us behind our backs.

[Pugwash]

Her name is Elisha Cuthbert. She is a Canadian actress that lived close to me. I have met her a few times and she is now dating Dion Phenuef of the Calgary Flames. Some of you might know her from the TV show "24".

...and the clip is a scene from "The Girl Next Door".

[chad]

Considering Josh a friend is a bit like thinking that stripper in front of you actually likes you.

I have heard from many reliable sources close to those guys that we are a source of income to them and they do not speak to highly of people on the forums.

Anybody who has been around for any length of time knows the "Cartel" is no joke. I have been buying watches from Josh and Andrew for the past six years. I consider Josh a friend and he still is - BUT

we have always had an agreement - business is business. As far as I am concerned - kudos to RWI - Josh and Andrew made a "business" move and this time it went too far. In the end, I have no doubt it will all work itself out and we (the customer) will be better for it.

I have been privy to some of the "behind the scenes" stuff and trust me - RWI did the right thing and time will vet this out.

[jot9011]

I have read the thread at RWI (all 17 pages of it) and while I feel that RWI did what they needed to do to protect their members, I do not feel that this will affect the way things work in the rep world.

Price fixing is an agreement between business competitors to sell the same product or service at the same price. What is happening here is coercion and strong-arming. Something entirely different.

While Josh and Andrew are responsible for bringing some of the new "super-reps", these have been coming with "super-prices"

I do not think the recent drop in prices of some watches (ie Graham, ets) are due to competition. I think that's a market adjustment. Thats to say, that because watches are more expensive now and members are buying one instead of 2 or 3, this leads to supply outweiging demand on some watches.

These tactics will always exist in this illegal market. Will the prices soar out of control because of it, I don't know? Bottom line is, that is not why they were banned at RWI. It was a matter of ethics and disrepect.

But honestly, How ethical do you expect a person who sells illegal goods to be. I am happy with quality reps at decent prices. If we had more Josh's and Andrew's (ie Angus) not all tied to the same factory then it wouldn't be possible for one or two dealers to control the market.

Like Dani said, it was a no-brainer that within minutes of this threat, every single member who had ever bought a watch from the cartel and got it delivered without problems would come to their defense. And I especially love it when members with less than 50 posts and less than six months on their membership come telling us what this forum is all about.

Out of this entire thread, the one thing that really bothered me, was this comment. If long-time members continue to lambast and deride new members for offering their opinion, then how do you expect to grow your membership. These are not the "hit and run" type of forum members. These are the one's that actually care enough to sit down and compose a response. Not everyone with a post count under 50 is a total imbecile with no insight. Just as it is, that a post count of 3000 doesn't make a you a genius.

With all the problems we are having with paying the bills here, I think that this "Shut-up and sit in the corner. Adults are talking" attitude is not warranted.

[FxrAndy]

well said jot

[V]

Having a good experience and transactions with Josh and Andrew is completely irrelevant with the issue.

I always had extremely great transactions with both of them (especially Josh) but I believe the choice that was made was the right one for the general good.

A bold move, especially from RWI who supported them for a long time, and I am 1000% that the proof is there and it is an unacceptable behaviour.

[slay]

I don't think those posts on the other forum can be considered any "evidence" at all. First of all, Joshua and Andrew already have good business already no matter what, so why would they do anything like that? And anyways, how and why exactly a factory not supply other dealers? The factory would be losing business that way, but if it did, it probably woldn't be based on what one dealer told the factory. On rwi I read that there are three dealers that named Andrew. Well, without really any evidence but just rumor, these dealers might have planned something like this just to take the most profitable dealers down. I'm not saying any of this for sure, but just speculation and my 2 cents

*maybe* because andrew and josh sell more replicas because of guys like YOU that dont listen and close their eyes?

*maybe* hont doesnt buy in such a large volume

*maybe* the maker won't sell to hont anymore because he would lose business with cartel dealers if he did?

in the end, ALL IS YOUR fault. All those that defend and defend and defend, no matter what he did.

[slay]

Out of this entire thread, the one thing that really bothered me, was this comment. If long-time members continue to lambast and deride new members for offering their opinion, then how do you expect to grow your membership. These are not the "hit and run" type of forum members. These are the one's that actually care enough to sit down and compose a response. Not everyone with a post count under 50 is a total imbecile with no insight. Just as it is, that a post count of 3000 doesn't make a you a genius.

With all the problems we are having with paying the bills here, I think that this "Shut-up and sit in the corner. Adults are talking" attitude is not warranted.

The funny thing is, that they only open their mouth when it comes to problems with their little baby-dealers josh and andrew. when it comes to helping out others with parts, when it comes to writing reviews for other members, when it comes to donating to the forum, when it comes to writing tutorials, THEY do not say *ANYTHING*.

They only open their big mouthes when they see that someone had a problem with josh or andrew. Then they start defending them like little kids that have a war of Playstation vs. Xbox on the internet.

Its just childish behaviour and in the end, their behaviour HURTS us all.

[supermanx]

Out of this entire thread, the one thing that really bothered me, was this comment. If long-time members continue to lambast and deride new members for offering their opinion, then how do you expect to grow your membership. These are not the "hit and run" type of forum members. These are the one's that actually care enough to sit down and compose a response. Not everyone with a post count under 50 is a total imbecile with no insight. Just as it is, that a post count of 3000 doesn't make a you a genius.

With all the problems we are having with paying the bills here, I think that this "Shut-up and sit in the corner. Adults are talking" attitude is not warranted.

JOT, I don't think there is a problem with any member expressing their opinion. I think the people that are around and posting everyday get a little discouraged when people come and express opinions without participating... Right or Wrong, the admins wanted to allow freedom of speech on this issue and letting everyone express their feelings, for the most part, as long at the thread did not get down to a pissing match and then we tried to address it with pm's so others could express their feelings without locking it.

[jot9011]

Not everyone with a post count under 50 is a total imbecile with no insight. Just as it is, that a post count of 3000 doesn't make a you a genius.

The funny thing is, that they only open their mouth when it comes to problems with their little baby-dealers josh and andrew. when it comes to helping out others with parts, when it comes to writing reviews for other members, when it comes to donating to the forum, when it comes to writing tutorials, THEY do not say *ANYTHING*.

They only open their big mouthes when they see that someone had a problem with josh or andrew. Then they start defending them like little kids that have a war of Playstation vs. Xbox on the internet.

Its just childish behaviour and in the end, their behaviour HURTS us all.

I rest my case

[dadog13]

well done RWI...hopefully this will bring other forums to do the same...

[andreww]

Nobody is denying that J&A do a lot of things very well. Good communication, great selection, fast delivery, great customer service, and the list goes on. But, it's the lies that get me. I had a conversation with Andrew during the "white lies thread", and begged him to admit that he lied about representing the DG4813 in the B&R as an ETA 2892. Even after he had been caught red handed, he continued to lie...

Here is Trusty's reply in full

The fact is that the movement is indeed an ETA 2892 clone which is the best version in market. There are 6 companies in China manufcaturing ETA 2892 clones and Joshua and I bought the best one to install in the watch. It is the SLIMMEST and also beats at 28,800bph. You can input all these in the thread. I dont want to reply in the thread because of 2 things:

1. I HATE PUGWASH and those forum guys because they dont know anything about the industry and [censored] their way through. They dont even know there are 6 companies manufcatuing the ETA 2892 clone.

2. The Admin Team has been very sacarstic in their email to Joshua and I... they tell us that if we are kicked out, there will be dealers lining up to fill our dealer slots... [censored] with that comment. They have no idea how the makers in China respect the both of us..

Regarding the price fixing issue, it has been known for quite some time that J&A have pressured other dealers in this regard. I believe TWP and Ruby were both victims. Its not right, and the boards should have put a stop to this behavior long ago.

Also, I'd like to address the issue of "serviced" and "waterproofed" watches from J&A. This has been proven many times over the years to be nothing more than a scam, yet I still see members falling for it all the time. Shame on all boards for allowing that scam to continue.

[lanikai]

How does a factory not supply certain dealers? I'll tell you.

The amount of money the dealers are making off these forums is incredible. These forums make up a huge percentage of their sales. Andrew, being the biggest seller, has the clout to make special deals with the manufacturers.

He says to them: in return for blocking certain dealers who don't play by my rules, I will give you a bigger cut of my profits, or I will buy wathces from you at a higher price. Of course, they agree. This causes other dealers to set their prices to what Andrew demans, therefore, causing prices on the rep forums to go through the roof. The point isn't to ban all buyers in china, the point is to control the few that are called "trusted dealers" on the rep watch forum, which number about ten. Since we don't buy from those outside the "trusted dealer" network, the prices become artificially high for all of us.

In other words, he is screwing all of us behind our backs.

I am not posting in defense nor commenting on the RWI synopsis ... but c9 you have come to this froum 3 months ago that not being the point .. but you post such ludicris statements .. like everyone is dealing in back street alley's

you're testamony is not based on a single "shred" of evidence or "Proof" ... but your... "I'll tell you". line is ignorant to the point of being comical..

Is this just so you can join the mix ??

Go ahead and buy outside all the forums dealers and see how far you get with decent reps ... How many reps of awaited genuines have you purchased?

if you have been buying for a year or 2 .. that time frame would give you a good idea of how things operate... how many parts have you sourced from dealers ?? another gauge into the rep business world

"factory dealers" are those whom commission the factories or "maker" to replicate a genuine piece .... the dealers that procure the rep has done so from his own pocket .... the maker disassembles the genuine,.. for replication..

The factory or Maker that is commissioned has a quota for the dealers to sell .. and the Factory makers set the price..

ever been into a Staturn Car Dealership.... there is no Bartering.. no one dealer can give you a better price than what you see on the tag at your first stop.. the prices are set across the board .. the same at every dealership .. they could vary on where you live.. to adjust for fishing..

The Saturn Car Dealers are under the factories say so....

a Dealer that breaks the ranks has to answer to someone....

What if the Factory set a price and you were not following directions... would they send a factory representative??? of course they would.. this factory representative may be the one that bought the genuine for the factory

What amazes me is VERY VERY FEW MEMBERS SEE that the dealers are not the ultimate power here.. they are more like factory reps.

The MAKERS (factories) HOLD THE POWER .. they tell the dealers how many have to be sold if they replicate a genuine..

You are giving way too much credit to the dealers .... and not enough to the makers ....

This was all side bars and not about J&A .. but think of GZ as you would Detroit and the dealers as you would your local Chevy or Ford dealerships...

The factory - Makers are the modern WarLords fo China .. not the dealers,.....the dealers are the conduit from the makers..