Dani Posted August 3, 2008 Report Share Posted August 3, 2008 Ive altogether stopped buying reps. Im now buying and modding Seikos. They are cheap and fun. Most importantly theres no QC issues, no being squeezed by cartel pricing monopolies and nomore funding criminal syndicates. I look at some of the new reps that look like small cyborg planets or are the size of a babies head and dont feel the urge to rush out and buy them any longer let alone want to wear them So the only thing to do about the ever increasing prices of replica watches is dont buy them and see for the money what gens you could purchase. what about us gents that are buying reps for fun and have the gens we whant? How about your own prices Ajoe? - PAM27 original price 650$ + a few parts and mods worth ~400$(extra dial and hands + a relume) -> Your initial asking price ~1400$ - Pam 29 original price ~600$ + a few parts worth ~200$ (gen crown + cyclops) -> Your initial asking price 1200$ - Pam 63 original price ~ 600$ + a few parts worth ~200$ (gen crown + cyclops) -> Your initial asking price 1200$ Seems to be very hypocritical of you flaming the dealers for asking high prices for there pieces, while you are taking advantage of these piece being rare and selling them at astronomical prices. asking a 100-150$ premium on watches that is very hard to find? and this reps he sold is the only types of reps that will keep their value to be honest. Forged from Gens... lol.. and they still manage to f**k them up on a daily basis.. I do not see the weak dollar in the whole issue as the prices quoted to me are in RMB and it has shot through the roof. @dluddy.. drama is over rated.. what we need.. is more cow bell.. The $$ is very weak. For me i can buy a rep now for 300$ skyland and pay the same as i did in 2004 when i bought my first pam 005 at 388$/whit takiunat strap from river. $$ for many of us is very weak and i feel we are talking about wrong subject as not all watches(reps) are over priced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted August 3, 2008 Report Share Posted August 3, 2008 (edited) Oh make no mistake, I'm not defining greed any differently than you are, and I'm not playing devil's advocate. I'm saying that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction in any market and this sort of thing is very close for me as I study markets for a living. All I'm saying is that what is worth doing is worth doing for money and $50 profit per watch vs a $200 profit per watch at the dealer level will not affect price elasticity. The current price of reps in this "forum" segment of the market has established itself as pure as evidenced by buying and selling. If the market did not perceive the final prices as fair, they would fall and they haven't. Where, how, and who makes the profits in the chain and to what degree is of no consequence and the only thing that effects market actions in any market is the ending price which is a perception of value. A $400 rep sells for that price because market participants think it is worth that. They may kick and scream and complain about the price, but yet they still pay it so the rest is noise. When they cease kicking and stop buying only then will the perceived value be real and prices be affected. So no, we don't really disagree at all my friend, and I think it is great if you choose to expliot a new sales strategy to offer watches at a lower price, although I'm not sure if you decided to do it or not. Just know that the market is pretty much static and finite and that all that will really happen is the same amount of sales at less profits. But if you are able to effectively pull all the volume away from the other dealers before they follow suit with lower prices due to lack of sales if even for a short time you will proabably make up for the decreased margins with a lot of volume in the short run if you can pull it off. In any event, I guess I'm rooting for you. Change is always good - or volatility as we like to call it in my business... @RobbieG, Indeed.. we all have different opinions on the definitions of greed... I will take a page out of the Dealer book and apply it to my pocketbook... I want to have more of it in there..... To overplay devils advocate on this issue has lead to Paralysis by Analysis.. plain and simple. Main Entry: greed Pronunciation: \ˈgrēd\ : a selfish and excessive desire for more of something (as money) than is needed I'm sorry.. I think I hit it on the head... but I'm sure it can be argued in 500 other different ways ... which also leads to paralysis by analysis. Edited August 3, 2008 by RobbieG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted August 3, 2008 Report Share Posted August 3, 2008 No doubt that everything is going up. I'm buying a lot of gens lately and paying more for them than ever. Some brands and specific pieces have gone up by more than 20% in a year. The real Cartel is in Switzerland. Makes China look like Costco in a going out of business sale... what about us gents that are buying reps for fun and have the gens we whant? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dani Posted August 3, 2008 Report Share Posted August 3, 2008 No doubt that everything is going up. I'm buying a lot of gens lately and paying more for them than ever. Some brands and specific pieces have gone up by more than 20% in a year. The real Cartel is in Switzerland. Makes China look like Costco in a going out of business sale... I pay about 2700$ for a gen skyland almost mint condition from the US and in my own country i woud have to pay 5000$+ So its not bad in terms of gens either it depends on where you are in the world.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertk Posted August 3, 2008 Report Share Posted August 3, 2008 Which brands/watches would you class in the 'complications' catagory? I only ask, as my wife's Crazy Hours was only $108 shipped, and I'd've thought that the unconventional movement action would class as a complication... Actually, TJ I was thinking Chrono's. But you're right, I've purchased lot's of complications (like jumping hour, PP with all kinds of day/date, moon, etc.) for the under $150. Specially, those fitted with the asian movement which has tended to be reliable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted August 3, 2008 Report Share Posted August 3, 2008 Actually, TJ I was thinking Chrono's. But you're right, I've purchased lot's of complications (like jumping hour, PP with all kinds of day/date, moon, etc.) for the under $150. Specially, those fitted with the asian movement which has tended to be reliable. Thanks for the clarification I guess having had a Swatch with chrono functions, I never really considered them 'complicated', although I guess technically, it would make the movement more complicated than one which only measured hours, minutes and seconds... I only wondered, because, as we've both said, 'complicated' watches are available at reasonable prices Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted August 3, 2008 Report Share Posted August 3, 2008 The dealer markup has gone way beone the one to two hundred percent of the gen world in the higher range reps and I think profit is the main reason. TB - I agree with most of your other comments, but 100-200?????? I think you have alot to learn about the greed-based pricing structure of the gen brands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted August 4, 2008 Report Share Posted August 4, 2008 The gen world is truly awesome. I looked at this a number of years ago. The dealer buys at 55-60% of retail for virtually all premium brands. The Company's can typically make a 30-40% gross margin so "cost" fully loaded with marketing and overhead is approximately 35% of retail. So at retail you are paying 300%. Now if you back out marketing and centralized overhead of approximately 25-30% (of the 55% wholesale selling price) you begin to get the picture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted August 4, 2008 Report Share Posted August 4, 2008 I see that Jos Nana is reading this. Care to chime in with some facts, Josh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest carlsbadrolex Posted August 4, 2008 Report Share Posted August 4, 2008 I see that Jos Nana is reading this. Care to chime in with some facts, Josh? How do you type a cracking up, about to pee my pants sound??? That was funny!!! Glad I wasnt drinking at the time, my new monitor would have been soaked! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topgun Posted August 4, 2008 Report Share Posted August 4, 2008 There is some, and I say some level of justification to some of the price hikes we're seeing and it could be due to the level of sophisticated precision equipment required to make reps with the level of detail that rivals the gen. I'm sure this equipment is costly and the cost gets passed down to the consumer. I'm sure watch makers can satisfy the markets complaints by re-tooling and making sub-standard watch parts to lower manufacturing costs. I wouldn't want to see that happen. Let's all hope its tied to the value of the dollar. When its hopefully gets stronger, maybe we'll see a more reasonable pricing structure. Wishful but its a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwoTone Posted August 4, 2008 Report Share Posted August 4, 2008 Let's all hope its tied to the value of the dollar. When its hopefully gets stronger, maybe we'll see a more reasonable pricing structure. "Dollar"... Did you say "Dollar"... Why hasn't anybody else thought about that? . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted August 4, 2008 Report Share Posted August 4, 2008 Yeah, I gotta agree with TT here...the value of the dollar has little to nothing to do with price elasticity or lack thereof in the rep market. In may affect different buyers around the world who are converting other currencies in an individual transaction, but the action of this market is supply and demand driven. It simply isn't large enough to be impacted by global currency concerns. In other words nobody is short reps, long Francs or whatever trying to exploit some currency arbitrage play. LOL. Currency would only come into play if say factories were using the value of the dollar as a hedge against soem global supply that they needed to tap or something, which obviously isn't happening. "Dollar"... Did you say "Dollar"... Why hasn't anybody else thought about that? . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trailboss99 Posted August 4, 2008 Report Share Posted August 4, 2008 I realy don't think material costs come into it. The execption to this is ETA MVTs which are geting more expensive. A non chrono is prob costing the dealers twenty bucks or so at most since we pay sixty to eighty for one. An A21J? five dollars. Steel just doesn.t enter into it. According to umetal.com the current price of 316 stainless in GZ is 7088.25 USD per ton. That puts the steel cost in a rep at under two dollars. As for printing date wheels ect I think a lot of folk realy don't have an understanding just how cheap it is to have things done in CN. The bigie is tooling but when your paying someone three to five dollars a day (five bucks a day is a VERY good wage in CN) to do the setup even this is not exactly expensive. The machinery costs add up of cause but is absorbed over tens of thousands of reps. Ad in a few bribes for the local officals of cause, once again spread over many reps. Shure, the prices on all these are rising but its a small percentage of the increse we have seen of late. The main cost (to us) is the profit made by the factory and dealers. Of this I have no doubt. Its up to the invidual to decide if he/she thinks its worth what is being asked. Do you object that a Coke at Maccas costs four cents to make? A McBurger about sixty to eighty cents? McFries less than twenty? No, you still buy. Many retail margines are much higher than most imagine. Its just that the Chinese are realising what they can get away with charging. It was bound to happen sooner or later and unfortunatly I can't see things changing any time soon. Regards, Col. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southcoast68 Posted August 4, 2008 Report Share Posted August 4, 2008 I guess we all decide what is high price and what isn't high price, for me, anything over $400 is highh price. But there are "bargains" out there if one is willing to look. I have mainly been buying used from other forum members, sometimes at a substancial price reduction. A couple of weeks ago, I scored a TAG Aquaracer chrono, like new condition, for $175 US (approx. a $100 dollar savings over new) just because the original owner decided the watch was too big to fit his wrist. I have seen AP ROO's and some Hublot BB's get listed used for between $350 - $500, sure, the AP may have been the older seconds at 9 version and the HBB may have been a "lite" version with only single AR, but they do show up, and in good condition. As some folks decide that they need a change in scenery in thier watch box, they put up for sale what they do not want anymore (I havbe been doing this a lot lately, and still have a few more pecies to sell yet). So keep you eyes open and be patient, there are good deals uot there. Last fall, when surfing the 'Bay, I came upon an ElPrimero movement from a Movado Datron, in complete condition (but needing servicing) with a buy it now price of about $750 US!! It was gone in a flash and if I had the money, I would have snapped it up immediately. I started to add up in my head how much I spent on reps during that year, and estimated I had blown about $1200 or so on the hobby, well more than what that movement, and its servicing, would have cost me, and I would have the basis for a Daytona franken. Currently, I cannot find Elprimero anything for less than $1200, and the price is going further North. Prices for anything Daytona these days are skyrocketing away from my reach, but that is the market and its really my fault for not saving capital to fund a daytona franken project. But yet I still find myself looking for a good deal on a rep. I mention all this because I beleive that we all have a good idea of what we are willing to pay for a particular watch and ALL hobbies cost money. Reps carry a high mark up, sure, so does tires for your car, breakfast cereal for your tummy, clothes to cover your a@s, thats business, always was - always will be. If spending $400 plus on a rep bothers you, save that cash for something gen, I whish I had, everytime I go to a NAWCC show and see what cool gen I could have bought if it wern't for the 6 or so $200 reps I got months before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daytona4me Posted August 4, 2008 Report Share Posted August 4, 2008 There is some, and I say some level of justification to some of the price hikes we're seeing and it could be due to the level of sophisticated precision equipment required to make reps with the level of detail that rivals the gen. I'm sure this equipment is costly and the cost gets passed down to the consumer. I'm sure watch makers can satisfy the markets complaints by re-tooling and making sub-standard watch parts to lower manufacturing costs. I wouldn't want to see that happen. Your probably right.. the sophistication of the process is likely costing a lot of money.. Let's not forget that when things cool down on watches.. we see a big price decrease... easily argued that it is because the costs of replication have now been covered.. lol.. I'm sure it is covered in one good days worth of advertising and sales on the forums... but .. whatever.. Here is a video taken of an assembly shop for replica watches.. 500 to 1000 watches can be produced in this guys house... http://www.hautehorlogerie.org/spip.php?pa...id_article=1832 come on guys.. dont fool yourself here.. there is a lot of common sense that you can reference when you ask yourself why watches have increased in price as they have. But chances are that you will only see the Larger Prices attached to the "Genuine Fake Watches"... the Genuine ones folks.. stay away from the Genuine Fakes.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maulermacall@hotmail.com Posted August 4, 2008 Report Share Posted August 4, 2008 How about your own prices Ajoe? - PAM27 original price 650$ + a few parts and mods worth ~400$(extra dial and hands + a relume) -> Your initial asking price ~1400$ - Pam 29 original price ~600$ + a few parts worth ~200$ (gen crown + cyclops) -> Your initial asking price 1200$ - Pam 63 original price ~ 600$ + a few parts worth ~200$ (gen crown + cyclops) -> Your initial asking price 1200$ Seems to be very hypocritical of you flaming the dealers for asking high prices for there pieces, while you are taking advantage of these piece being rare and selling them at astronomical prices. This is the best point so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoobs1971 Posted August 4, 2008 Report Share Posted August 4, 2008 Hmmm.... after 4 pages and about 90% of the votes saying reps are too expensive, I think we can expect almost everyone here to stop buying reps and learn these nasty rep factories and dealers a lesson! Guys, like Kruzer already said on page 1, vote with your wallets. Trying to speculate how the cost structure of manufacturing reps works doesn't lead anywhere. It's probably a combination of cost increases, weak dollars, inflation, greed or whatever, but since when do customers determine the price for manufacturers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hk45ca Posted August 4, 2008 Report Share Posted August 4, 2008 Hmmm.... after 4 pages and about 90% of the votes saying reps are too expensive, I think we can expect almost everyone here to stop buying reps and learn these nasty rep factories and dealers a lesson! Guys, like Kruzer already said on page 1, vote with your wallets. Trying to speculate how the cost structure of manufacturing reps works doesn't lead anywhere. It's probably a combination of cost increases, weak dollars, inflation, greed or whatever, but since when do customers determine the price for manufacturers? i haven't bought any reps since last october. i said screw it and bought my wife and i both new rolex's, platinum yacht master for her and a gmt2c for myself. we are extremely happy with them and believe it or not we haven't had one single quality issue with either one of them. if the prices on reps don't come back down where they belong i will buy us 2 more new rolex's around the beginning of next year. i am not exactly sure what my next one will be but she wants a ladies tt dj with diamond hour markers. i was spending about 1,000.00 per month on this hobby, now i am not spending one dime on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoobs1971 Posted August 4, 2008 Report Share Posted August 4, 2008 i was spending about 1,000.00 per month on this hobby, now i am not spending one dime on it. At least someone who acts. I can respect that. But I wonder how many of the 90% that thinks reps are too expensive will do the same..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted August 4, 2008 Report Share Posted August 4, 2008 Fantastic video. Thanks for the link... http://www.hautehorlogerie.org/spip.php?pa...id_article=1832 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted August 4, 2008 Report Share Posted August 4, 2008 Like I said, if the prices don't come down you will know for sure that they haven't... At least someone who acts. I can respect that. But I wonder how many of the 90% that thinks reps are too expensive will do the same..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted August 4, 2008 Report Share Posted August 4, 2008 You and I had similar habits, although my change in rep habits had nothing to do with rep prices. I just want them to have less QC issues than they do and they don't so I will buy gens instead as long as I have the means. There are SO many stories like that here of people I know buying reps at a pace that would net them as much as 4 to 6 gens a year! It would be interesting though to see the impact on prices and QC if a large pool of forum members refused to buy save for certain price points and QC levels. Very interesting to watch for sure... i was spending about 1,000.00 per month on this hobby, now i am not spending one dime on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted August 4, 2008 Report Share Posted August 4, 2008 Great video. I have seen articles like this before. And I am sure there are plenty of outfits like the one they described. But here is the interesting question. Somewhere along the line there is some sophisticated movement design/re-design and construction and some real CNC design and machining going on. We are also seeing sourcing of unique materials - ceramics, etc. And the critical link in the supply chain should have the most pricing power. I assume there are more sophisticated traditional factoriesthan what is always pictured. That shop making 500 per week could never do runs of a 1,000 of more sophisticated watches alongside of several other models. Now I am not trying to say that Dealers will not always try to maximize profit. They will. It is their livelihood. But I am wondering where the biggest element of the mark-up comes in. And I am not talking $ but %. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted August 4, 2008 Report Share Posted August 4, 2008 How about your own prices Ajoe? - PAM27 original price 650$ + a few parts and mods worth ~400$(extra dial and hands + a relume) -> Your initial asking price ~1400$ - Pam 29 original price ~600$ + a few parts worth ~200$ (gen crown + cyclops) -> Your initial asking price 1200$ - Pam 63 original price ~ 600$ + a few parts worth ~200$ (gen crown + cyclops) -> Your initial asking price 1200$ Seems to be very hypocritical of you flaming the dealers for asking high prices for there pieces, while you are taking advantage of these piece being rare and selling them at astronomical prices. Pot and kettle I think...astronomical is one word to describe it, there are others... RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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