freddy333 Posted September 8, 2008 Report Share Posted September 8, 2008 I have handled enough of these -- vintage OEM & modded with aftermarket parts (a la Phong), but this 1 looks entirely new. Not just new chrono bridges, but all the bridges, plates & gears look like they were made with the same grain & surface finish. The pillar plate also has that unmistakable cheap look (rough finish) that many other Chinese copies have. Of course, since they have copied many ETA movements, a Valjoux should not really come as much of a surprise. But imagine the possibilities........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest avitt Posted September 8, 2008 Report Share Posted September 8, 2008 I'm inclined to believe you, freddy333! There is no part of that movement that appears to have vintage patina. It definitely looks different... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest carlsbadrolex Posted September 8, 2008 Report Share Posted September 8, 2008 Hey, I have wondered for years what was holding the Chinese back from replicating one of the Rolex movements. It would surprise me that they would do the 727 before a 1750... But what the hell, I will take two of these. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted September 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2008 I'm inclined to believe you, freddy333! There is no part of that movement that appears to have vintage patina. It definitely looks different... Yes, it lacks patina. But that is not the thing that caught my eye or inspired me to post the pic here. What makes this 1 different from all the other V72s I have seen is the similar grain on ALL of the parts, not just the usual (aftermarket) chrono bridges, but ALL the parts. And if you look below the balance wheel, you can see that the pallet plate itself has the same unfinished texture that we see in the A7750 & some recent ETA copies. I have never seen that on any gen V72 before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deltatahoe Posted September 8, 2008 Report Share Posted September 8, 2008 this would definitely be big news assuming it got a thumbs up review from ziggy, i'd grab one for my 6263 daytona in a heartbeat (for that inevitable day when my mystery movement dies). @freddy, you know where to potentially purchase one of these? deltatahoe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted September 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2008 @freddy, you know where to potentially purchase one of these? Yes, but you are not going to like the answer - Honpo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toadtorrent Posted September 8, 2008 Report Share Posted September 8, 2008 Yes, but you are not going to like the answer - Honpo. I'm new to this Freddy...but am I correct in seeing that the lead and some of the succeeding pictures looks like it has asymmetrical pushers, but the last picture (with the closed back and bracelet) looks symmetrical? I have a feeling this is just a photo angle distortion thing, but want to make sure. The currency conversion appears around $3,410 CDN assuming Japanese yen is the base currency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligoat Posted September 8, 2008 Report Share Posted September 8, 2008 So Honpo is selling a 6263 w/ a V72- can you wade thru the japanese and tell me what the price is? At any rate, cool find Freddy. I guess I'm not too surprised- I've always thought it would be cool if they came out with the v72. When they sell for $800-1000 and up on ebay, you know there is a market for them. I've wondered what ever happened to the old Valjoux tooling for making the V72. As I recall, the old story about the Venus 175 was the stuff was sold to a Russian entity and then to the Chinese and now we have the copy movements. Of course, this could also bring the price down for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted September 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2008 I'm new to this Freddy...but am I correct in seeing that the lead and some of the succeeding pictures looks like it has asymmetrical pushers, but the last picture (with the closed back and bracelet) looks symmetrical? I have a feeling this is just a photo angle distortion thing, but want to make sure. Some sellers (like Honpo) are not real accurate in displaying the same watch on the same page. So, in general, you need to be careful. But if the watch contains that movement, it has asymmetrical pushers. And they look properly asymmetrical in all of these pictures. The currency conversion appears around $3,410 CDN assuming Japanese yen is the base currency. Yes, that is correct. Quite expensive, but considering the ever-increasing prices of vintage Rolex, not altogether surprising. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligoat Posted September 8, 2008 Report Share Posted September 8, 2008 The currency conversion appears around $3,410 CDN assuming Japanese yen is the base currency. That's cheaper than Phong for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted September 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2008 So Honpo is selling a 6263 w/ a V72- can you wade thru the japanese and tell me what the price is? At any rate, cool find Freddy. I guess I'm not too surprised- I've always thought it would be cool if they came out with the v72. When they sell for $800-1000 and up on ebay, you know there is a market for them. I've wondered what ever happened to the old Valjoux tooling for making the V72. As I recall, the old story about the Venus 175 was the stuff was sold to a Russian entity and then to the Chinese and now we have the copy movements. Of course, this could also bring the price down for us. That & we would then have a ready supply of new movements to use instead of having to peruse auctions & hope you get a working (or repairable) 20+ year-old, used movement. The price is on his main Rolex 6263 page (350,000 yen, which translates to $3,272). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted September 8, 2008 Report Share Posted September 8, 2008 Well I had a good look in detail at the movement, and I think it's a genuine V72. Maybe not originally a Rollie one, but I do think it's pure V72. I say this for a number of reasons, mostly to me it's in the small details: High polishing on the screws and various pieces Hammer pivot has the copper coloured bearing like the genuine one 30 minute transfer gear has the brass bearing like the genuine one, and note the high quality of the fit and finish Slight screwdriver marks on the 30 minute centering spring, which tells me this has been adjusted a few times The fit and finish of all the various gears and parts looks just like the V23/72's I have seen. I don't understand why someone doesn't start up production of the V23/72 again, even the spare parts alone would pay for the tooling...and the patent has long expired, the V23 came out in the 1930's for god's sake... RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted September 8, 2008 Report Share Posted September 8, 2008 I've seen "reproduction" plate kits before; essentially the mainplate, bridges, etc. Add your own gear train, balance/escapement, mainspring etc. to build a complete working movement. Not cheap either; I'm assuming this kit was offered to provide a solution to someone who may be restoring an old worn out movement, as obtaining all those gears, etc. would end up putting final cost over the cost of just buying another V72 or V72 powered donor... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfreeman420 Posted September 8, 2008 Report Share Posted September 8, 2008 I would assume at that price this would have to be a genuine V72. Then again when you assume you can make an ass out of u and me............................ Seriously if there were a chinese replica of the v72 movement the price should be around $300 to $400. Isn't DW's mystery movement a copy of a V23? DW's go for around $300 or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
llsteve80 Posted September 9, 2008 Report Share Posted September 9, 2008 I would assume at that price this would have to be a genuine V72. Then again when you assume you can make an ass out of u and me............................ Seriously if there were a chinese replica of the v72 movement the price should be around $300 to $400. Isn't DW's mystery movement a copy of a V23? DW's go for around $300 or so. No offense but with that logic, you can assume that because a sub costs 1800 on a bad site, it has a 27J swiss movement, and solid 18k links....Just sayin. More money does get higher quality, but not in a market such as ours. And yes, why is there no chinese copy of the v72? seriously. The DW MM is supposed to be a V23 copy, but from what I understand, gen valjoux parts won't fit or won't work. You need to get the parts off of another broken mystery movement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanuq Posted September 10, 2008 Report Share Posted September 10, 2008 Here's the V727 that DW had last summer. Mucho expensive. Note the microstellas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted September 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 10, 2008 Here's the V727 that DW had last summer. Mucho expensive. Note the microstellas. I cannot quite make out any microstellas in this picture since the balance is in motion (while there are no microstellas in evidence in my pic), but this movement looks like a gen due to the overall patina/wear on most of the components & typical (smooth) finish of the Valjoux pillar plate. But if you compare the finish of the pillar plate below the balance wheel on this pic with the finish of the movement in the pic I posted above, I think you will see there is a difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted September 10, 2008 Report Share Posted September 10, 2008 I cannot quite make out any microstellas in this picture since the balance is in motion (while there are no microstellas in evidence in my pic), but this movement looks like a gen due to the overall patina/wear on most of the components & typical (smooth) finish of the Valjoux pillar plate. But if you compare the finish of the pillar plate below the balance wheel on this pic with the finish of the movement in the pic I posted above, I think you will see there is a difference. I find that this one looks wrong because I have never seen so much copper coloured wheels and arms...your original picture looks more "right" than this one. Did you note that on nanuq's picture that the reset hammer spring is not assembled correctly, it's on the wrong side of the hammer pin, compare to yours which is correct. I am still confused and amazed by your original picture, too many fine details look genuine and definetly not chinese, but the balance throws it all out the window, there were no glycudure balances when the V23 and V72's were in production, at least not to my knowledge... EDIT>>>>> I spoke too soon...just had a look at my archives of the V72's I have serviced, your balance with those arms is a Valjoux part, so that throws that thought out the window... If I have time tomorrow, I'll post some detailed pics of different V72's I have for ref, I still think it's a genuine movement, but wonder where the "R" is located. RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted September 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 10, 2008 Did you note that on nanuq's picture that the reset hammer spring is not assembled correctly, it's on the wrong side of the hammer pin, compare to yours which is correct. I was focusing solely on the finish of the plates & bridges & completely missed that spring, but I think that is more of an assembly error than a key to the movement's age or source. No? I am still confused and amazed by your original picture, too many fine details look genuine and definetly not chinese, but the balance throws it all out the window, there were no glycudure balances when the V23 and V72's were in production, at least not to my knowledge... EDIT>>>>> I spoke too soon...just had a look at my archives of the V72's I have serviced, your balance with those arms is a Valjoux part, so that throws that thought out the window... If I have time tomorrow, I'll post some detailed pics of different V72's I have for ref, I still think it's a genuine movement, but wonder where the "R" is located. You are not bothered by the rough finish of the pillar below the balance wheel? That is something I have never seen on the dozen or so V72s I have handled here. The pillar, along with most of the other plates & bridges, just does not look like a well-crafted part to me. And I have been going over & over the pics of gen Daytona movements in my archive & none of them have a finish like the movement in my 1st post above. Worn or dirty, yes, but not that unfinished/rough texture I see below the balance. Not to mention the similar grain of all the flat surfaces & their pristine appearance. That is what makes me suspicious. But, as we all know, until/unless 1 of us has the opportunity to disassemble 1 of Honpo's 6263s, there is no way to know for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligoat Posted September 10, 2008 Report Share Posted September 10, 2008 Is a reset hammer spring also referred to as a flyback lever? The pointer on the balance bridge is also wrong- OK for a 6234/V72A, but long gone by the time the 727 came along. Obviously the pillar below the balance has been refinished- and engraved with 727- just like Phong does. And the train bridge with the engraving 'Swiss Made Fabr. Suisse' on early 727's was painted with gold paint. Later 727's in the 80's had no engraving on the train bridge. At this point, most of the movements we're seeing are fabrications no doubt. With aftermarket bridges added to mimic a real Rolex movement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted September 10, 2008 Report Share Posted September 10, 2008 I was focusing solely on the finish of the plates & bridges & completely missed that spring, but I think that is more of an assembly error than a key to the movement's age or source. No? Agree, assembly error, but not something that should happen, especially for a sales picture You are not bothered by the rough finish of the pillar below the balance wheel? I agree that the finish in this area is rough, and the 727 looks odd as does the missing "R" denoting a Valjoux. I am thinking that this was a whatever brand of V72, the existing makers marks were removed, 727 added after. Maybe this accounts for the bad finish in this area. I am bothered by the small details, that are identical to the V72's I have seen and compared to my reference pics. Even the fine polishing and hardening of the screws is there, along with the same colour bearing material in the various pivots etc, finish of the gears etc is all screaming V72. I see to many things that look right, compared to those that look wrong, which is why I think it's a genuine one. But unless someone picks one up, we'll probably never know... RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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