TJGladeRaider Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 I think most of us are honest, law abiding people, yet we are looking at a situation where gen manufacturers are having their trademarks blatantly infringed upon in violation of laws that most of us probably support, and we choose to buy these things. This is a very curious and fascinating subject for me. To me, and speaking just for me, I would never pass off a rep as a gen - that's not what this is about for me, and the exact opposite in fact. I buy these things as a sort of social/political statement, and the point I feel that they make is that the manufacturers of the gens are engaged in a grand, collossal, fraud. I wear a replica as evidence that the gen is a ripoff, an example of a carefully orchestrated scam perpetrated by the watch cartels (the government's term, not mine) who have manipulated the marketplace thru an illegal system of price controls. I say, "Look at this Pam 28 with it's 2892 movement and sapphire crystal and tell me why the gen cost fiteen or twenty times what I paid for this?" If someone could say that the gen has a real Swiss movement, the gen is waterproof, or the gen keeps better time, then they would have a legitimate defense, but virtually indistinguishable differences in crown guard or crown thickness are no justification for the price difference. The fact is, the gens are better watches - I do not dispute that - but the difference is more like twenty percent than two thousand percent. The rest is blue sky, empty marketing hype and price controls - a fraud that I like to see exposed. Why do you buy these things? Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jraines87 Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 Why do you buy these things? Bill Bill, I got into the rep business as an easy cheap way to figure out what gen I was going to purchase. After getting my hand on a few reps, I (Like you) came to the conclusion that paying that much for a gen was out of the question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 I got into this stuff initially out of curiosity, which turned into a hobby of trying to build the most accurate examples possible using genuine parts where applicable. Much like someone building a model ship, or putting a replica car together. The fun for me is starting with a blank canvas, and tracking down the right parts for the watch to get it as close to the genuine article as possible. I don't try and pass my watches off for gen, but rather I explain the procedure in which I built my watch from parts. Usually quite the conversation topic amongst friends, family and even sometimes random people whom I don't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanerich Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 I can't really ethically defend what I do. I just like reps. I probably shouldn't buy them but there are lots of things I probably shouldn't do. I have several gens and have spent something north of $4,000 on reps during the past 2 years so it's not just an issue of pretending I have money to spend on watches. I guess it's like this -- I like a good pizza as much as Peking Duck, and since that's how my tastes run I might as well have pizza often and save my money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Tracy Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 Because 'Style & Taste' should not be measured by how much you spend.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanerich Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 No offense, but in the world we live in there are probably more important political statements to make than "I think Swiss Watches are overpriced" . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkbait Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 Bill, I got into the rep business as an easy cheap way to figure out what gen I was going to purchase. After getting my hand on a few reps, I (Like you) came to the conclusion that paying that much for a gen was out of the question. I think that buying a rep is a great way to transition to a larger sized watch. I find it difficult to determine if a larger sized watch is going to be comfortable for me by the five or ten minutes I have it on in a dealer's shop. This is especially true when thinking about moving from a gen 40mm watch to something like a 44mm Pam or 45mm P.O. The $200 or so that I spend on a rep is a drop in the bucket compared to buying a watch that you wind up selling in a month, all because you don't really like it. In another vein, I would love to collect, as reps, the vintage Rolex. Say the Milgauss, Paul Newman dialed Daytona, Red Sub, Orange Explorer II, etc. I would then put them in a display case as examples of what has been done in the past. Most of the vintage Rolex that are popular now where not popular when they were the current models. There are several reasons for someone to collect reps, none of which have to do with trying to "fool" someone else. I have long maintained that buying a rep is not the "crime". Turning around and selling it to someone else, as the real thing, now that is a criminal act. Just my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystalcranium Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 I think most of us are honest, law abiding people, yet we are looking at a situation where gen manufacturers are having their trademarks blatantly infringed upon in violation of laws that most of us probably support, and we choose to buy these things. This is a very curious and fascinating subject for me. To me, and speaking just for me, I would never pass off a rep as a gen - that's not what this is about for me, and the exact opposite in fact. I buy these things as a sort of social/political statement, and the point I feel that they make is that the manufacturers of the gens are engaged in a grand, collossal, fraud. I wear a replica as evidence that the gen is a ripoff, an example of a carefully orchestrated scam perpetrated by the watch cartels (the government's term, not mine) who have manipulated the marketplace thru an illegal system of price controls. I say, "Look at this Pam 28 with it's 2892 movement and sapphire crystal and tell me why the gen cost fiteen or twenty times what I paid for this?" If someone could say that the gen has a real Swiss movement, the gen is waterproof, or the gen keeps better time, then they would have a legitimate defense, but virtually indistinguishable differences in crown guard or crown thickness are no justification for the price difference. The fact is, the gens are better watches - I do not dispute that - but the difference is more like twenty percent than two thousand percent. The rest is blue sky, empty marketing hype and price controls - a fraud that I like to see exposed. Why do you buy these things? Bill I'm not particularily proud of the fact that I support an illegal activity. I can't rationalize the perspective that this is a "protest purchase" to demonstrate the insanity of the mark up in the genuine industry because there are plenty of legitimate manufacturers out there like Tissot and Hamilton and Swiss Army to name a few that I can patronize and make the same claim. Bottom line is I just think some of these replicas based on gorgeous original designs are just beautiful and this allows me to afford one without getting a second mortgage!! I think anyone who tries to pass off a replica for a genuine for profit is pretty scummy. I would never dream of doing that nor do I wave my reps in the noses of friends and associates and say "Lookie what I got!!!!" If someone notices, and my new Bentley GT is certainly getting some looks, and comments on the beauty, I say thank you. If an inquiry goes to origins, that makes it just a little more complicated. The fact is I don't mind people looking at my watches and admiring them. If their minds take them to other places and assumptions, some of them grandiose, so be it. But if someone asks, I let them teeter in doubt for a second or two, tease them into asking again, and then tell them the truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJGladeRaider Posted July 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 No offense, but in the world we live in there are probably more important political statements to make than "I think Swiss Watches are overpriced" . . . True, but most of the other statements I would wish to make don't look right on my wrist. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indyclmbr Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 (edited) I have long maintained that buying a rep is not the "crime". Turning around and selling it to someone else, as the real thing, now that is a criminal act. Just my opinion. I agree wholeheartedly. I collect reps because I'm thrifty. I originally got into it based on a joke a couple of buddies and I played on our wives while vacationing. They were all out at the spa and shopping and we stopped into this shop that had rollie reps. We each bought one for like $75 and met our wives for dinner wearing shiny new watches. It was funny. Then I started doing some research. I really like the look-always like the look of the genuine EXP II. So I thought, let me try this out, see if I really like it and if it's something I would be willing to drop the money on to buy the gen. Well, all I can say is it's a good thing I did. I really came looking for a white dial EXP II. I bought several and liked the way they wore, but they never did it for me. Then I picked up a black dial EXP II and let me tell you, it's awesome. I love my black dial 2893 EXP II. I could have bought a gen easily with the money I've spent collecting reps and still have some left over. Will I buy a genuine? Probably, but I have a very hard time justifying the expense of servicing a gen-that's my sticking point. The watch may intangibly be worth the expense, but the service fee is a complete ripoff. If and when I make the leap, it will be a black dial EXP II, not white. Glad I found that out. For now though, I'm having fun picking out some really nice watches. And truthfully, you can go out and buy genuine watches in the same price range, but for the pricepoint, our reps are much better watches in my opinion. I have a Citizen Eco-Drive chrono. It has mineral glass, which I've scratched and the steel doesn't seem as high quality. I've been wearing my EXP II rep longer and it simply wears better. I'll also add that collecting reps has enabled me to learn more about watches than I originally anticipated. So now, it's not so much about the collecting as it is learning about different movements, etc., something I never would have done if I just went out and bought the wrong, white dial EXP II gen. So, I've saved money, I have a few nice watches, I've learned more about all watches and I've "met" a great group of guys on this forum. That could all be a rationalization, but that's why I hang out here. Climb on. Edited July 12, 2006 by Indyclmbr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r11co Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 For me it's about owning something that is genuinely good value for money. For the price of my reps I could have the same or inferior case and band quality and/or quartz movements. I once paid £300 for what was at the time a trendy 'fashion' watch. I kept it 10 years and then managed to bin it on ebay for £50. It was well made, but passé. Where else can I get a 2824 movement, solid link strap and solid SS case for £90?! Where else can I get a reliable and good looking but ultimately disposable SS auto for £30? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest overboosted Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 Simple for me.... I LOVE watches. I am, almost all the time, drawn to more expensive watches. Not neccessarily because of the fact that they cost alot, but it seems the pricey ones just look nicer. If I bought all gens,,,,,well I am not even going to try and figure it out, but 40+ watches, most gen versions costing $4k-20K?!? For what I paid for all my reps I would probally have one measly gen sub and a 111H. Maybe this is the wiser choice, but not mine. Or,,, I have 40 watches that are semi close to the real deal. Easy choice for me. I am not trying to fool anybody with my reps either. I hold a Gen Rolex and even the most Ultimate crasy rep doesnt come close. Just can't match the build quality and material quality of a gen Rolex for $200 made in China. I have thought of selling them all but one or two and buying a Submariner LV that has been calling my name at the local Rolex AD, but just can't justify doing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klaatu00001 Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 I'm not going to sugarcoat it: 1. I buy reps because I'm poor and can't/won't afford gens. 2. I buy reps because I like to think that I'm "getting away" with something. 3. I buy reps because it helps pick up chicks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tag Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 I wear a replica as evidence that the gen is a ripoff, an example of a carefully orchestrated scam perpetrated by the watch cartels (the government's term, not mine) who have manipulated the marketplace thru an illegal system of price controls. I don't agree with you (at all). I've asked myself the same question and made some research and came to the conclusion that there is no rip off of any sort. In fact, I believe luxury watches are worth it but just... not affordable to all! First I found that there are no watch cartel! Even though there have been some consolidation there is still fierce competition between the luxury brands. And the most famous of all is independant... Rolex. Second, the profit of public luxury groups like Richemont or Swatch are healthy but not oversized (about 14% of revenue). Third, the difference between a rep and a gen is much more significant than the 20% you're guessing. Only tax already represents about 20%. Add marketing, sponsoring, research, quality control, labor costs in rich countries... capital cost as well because honorable watchmakers used more precise and expensive machinery; distribution costs as well: jewellers take about 50% of the list price, which is a much higher percentage than basic retail's - and rep dealers... Here is an example: a $2000 gen watch's price will be split as follow: - $1000 for the jeweller - $400 for the wholesaler - at best $600 for the watchmaker, and these $600 will cover all the mentioned above: - labor costs - capital costs - parts and - quality control - research - marketing, sponsoring - taxes - etc. Fourth, without any doubt gens are much, much more reliable and their quality is not comparable to the reps. Only appearance is. Also think about warranty; waterproofing like you mentioned. Etc. etc. Now what about price control? Rolex is being sued for price control in the US. But these practices are common but all luxury goods. I don't see anything illegal in this. Anyway the demand is so strong that Omega for instance has been able to raise its prices by an average of 7% for the past 5 years. So the market is commanding such high prices! PS. There have been a topic on this subject: check out http://www.rwg.cc/members/index.php?showtopic=5952&hl= and also (loosely related) http://www.rwg.cc/members/index.php?showtopic=7245 tag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pubus Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 (edited) Why do you buy these things? Bill well.... I cant afford any gen that Id like to own.... its my way to make my dream come true, no fooling ppl thats its a gen, no praising my "gen" or whatever just a short explanation what real replicas are thats it Edited July 12, 2006 by pubus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadog13 Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 my never ending love for watches...and the fact that I could own a 99% same looking watch as a real one...that I cannot afford...and there you go..I buy reps... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chronus Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 Damn! I've just seen the lever on my fully modded water-resistant PAM is slightly not tight enough... I think I'll go and buy a genuine now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dabom Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 Anyone who compares a gen with a rep is deluded. There is no comparison. Maybe when you're talking about Tag Heuer, but when we're talking about AP, Panerai, IWC, Rolex etc. - the gen is so much nicer and more satisfying. However, a rep is an excellent way to tell whether you like a particular style. I think if you appreciate a brand, you ought to buy the real thing. Do unto others as you would have others do to you. Would you like anyone to rip your job off, and undercut you by doing what you do at a lower price? What goes around comes around. However there are just so many brands out there, and reps are a good way to sample them. They also make good beaters. Those are my two reasons for buying reps: sampling, and using them as beaters. For horological appreciation - only a gen will do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polynomial Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 Lets reframe the original question a bit. Say I give you $10 million of a watch fund, money you can spend ONLY on watches. What would your wish list be? Any reps at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest overboosted Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 NO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dabom Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 Lets reframe the original question a bit. Say I give you $10 million of a watch fund, money you can spend ONLY on watches. What would your wish list be? Any reps at all? I think everyone's answer would be "no", which would show that money is the main driver. However, for me it is the main driver because of what I use the watches for: samplers and beaters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Tracy Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 Anyone who compares a gen with a rep is deluded. There is no comparison. Maybe when you're talking about Tag Heuer, but when we're talking about AP, Panerai, IWC, Rolex etc. - the gen is so much nicer and more satisfying. Fourth, without any doubt gens are much, much more reliable and their quality is not comparable to the reps. Only appearance is. Also think about warranty; waterproofing like you mentioned. Etc. etc. Too many people fall under the impression that gens never fail or have bad quality control... That is a Fallacy.... There Are, comparisons... or some of us would not be here.. I have owned gens.. and besides taking out a magnifying glass, whist holding one in each hand.. certain reps, are very well comparable,.. not only in material and construction, but in functionality and reliability... Are they exact ? No, but not being exact, does not mean that they are damaged junk.. just different enough to throw off the scent of the dogs... As a sales person, I know the psychology, of price, which sends some people on their merry way feeling much better about their purchase, when they pay more, and which gives them less satisfaction when they pay less. I was never one to fall for that hype..... Give me reasonable quality for a 10th of the price.. any day... The rest is simply the shepards stick sending us to the same grass field that the cows just chewed but making us feel that we are the first in line before the slaughter... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJGladeRaider Posted July 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 I don't agree with you (at all). I've asked myself the same question and made some research and came to the conclusion that there is no rip off of any sort. First . . . I found that there are no watch cartel! Third, . . . jewellers take about 50% of the list price, which is a much higher percentage than basic retail's - and rep dealers... Fourth, . . . So the market is commanding such high prices! While these are interesting arguments, I cannot help but wonder how you determined that there is no "watch cartel," especially since the government, using a legion of professional investigators with subpoena power and an unlimited budget came to the exact opposite conclusion. The problem that you are overlooking is the fact that it is the manufacturers, not the market, commanding the prices. The reason that this is a problem is that we have a law against it - the Sherman Anti-Trust Act. Perhaps this introduction to the situation from my investigative web site will help clarify things. On October 19, 1954, the United States filed an anti-trust complaint in the United States District Court, Southern District of New York, under Section 1 of the Sherman Act, 15 U.S.C. § 1, alleging a wide-ranging conspiracy between Swiss and United States watch companies to fix prices, terms, and conditions of the sale of watches and watch parts, restrict the manufacturing of watches and watch parts in the United States, and control the export of watches and watch parts into the United States. The complaint named more than twenty defendants, including Rolex's predecessor the American Rolex Watch Corporation. On March 9, 1960, the United States, and eleven of the defendants named in the complaint (all of whom were United States importers of Swiss watches or watch parts), including the American Rolex Watch Corporation, entered into the Final Judgment. The purpose of the Final Judgment was to prevent the defendant importers from engaging in certain collusive and unilateral conduct that was causing significant competitive harm at the time the Final Judgment was entered. Section VI.C of the Final Judgment states, in relevant part, that each defendant importer "is enjoined from. . . restricting or controlling the use by any person in the United States of watch parts or watchmaking machines purchased from" any defendant importer named in the suit, and Section VI.H of the Final Judgment states that each defendant importer "is enjoined from . . . entering into any agreement or understanding with any reseller of watches, watch parts or watchmaking machines to fix or control the markup or the maximum or minimum price at which, the terms or conditions on which, or the customers to whom any such product may be resold." Most recently, the government has determined that since 1996, Rolex has required watchmakers to agree to adhere to Rolex's Policy Statement which included certain provisions that the government has alleged to violate the Final Judgment. Specifically: a. One of the provisions in Rolex's Policy Statement, under the heading "Rolex Trademarks and Goodwill," states: "Parts may not be used in any watch that has non-Rolex parts or accessories (such as generic dials, bezels, crystals or bracelets)." This restriction on the ability of watchmakers to use parts purchased from Rolex to repair Rolex watches that have non-Rolex parts or accessories violates Section VI.C of the Final Judgment by limiting the use by watchmakers of the watch parts purchased from Rolex. b. Another provision in Rolex's Policy Statement, under the heading "Terms of Sale," states: "Spare parts are sold for end use by the purchaser only. Spare parts may not be resold under any circumstances." This restriction on the ability to resell parts violates both Section VI.H of the Final Judgment by limiting the circumstances under which watch parts may be resold, and Section VI.C of the Final Judgment by limiting a watchmaker's use of the watch parts it purchases from Rolex. c. A third provision in Rolex's Policy Statement, under the heading "General Policies," states: "To the extent that charges for spare parts are itemized, the markup shall not exceed fifty percent (50%)." This maximum pricing restriction violates Section VI.H of the Final Judgment by fixing the maximum markup that watchmakers can charge (when itemizing) for watch parts when performing repairs. Anyway, everyone is entitled to their opinions, and I certainly respect yours. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 jewellers take about 50% of the list price, which is a much higher percentage than basic retail's - and rep dealers... More like 40%, which is the same as a lot of retailers. A Jewellers will make a lot more on the jewellery they sell than the watches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 I have long maintained that buying a rep is not the "crime". Turning around and selling it to someone else, as the real thing, now that is a criminal act. Here's where it's odd ... While I disagree wholeheartedly with Nemo's opinion, I still buy reps. I know it's basically criminal and in theory undermines intellectual property laws, laws that fed and clothed me for a period of my life when I was a games publisher, but I gotta have me some watchy goodness. It is wrong, it is illegal, it is costing some honest Joe cash, but I needs me some Rolex, Omega or Panerai action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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