dieselpower Posted October 20, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 To the two previous posters. I can see why you feel the way you do. I myself said at the beginning of this thread that I did not classify a watch as franken unless it had a gen movement. However, the purpose of this thread is not to confirm or back up any pre-conceived ideas but to try to find a water tight system of accurately describing a 'frankenwatch' The reason I propose that any watch with a genuine part is a franken (as freddy333 pointed out some time ago) is because it is an easy and clear way to define such a piece. The word franken would indicate that the watch has at least one of the agreed significant parts that are genuine. Now it takes a little adjustment in your mind to come to terms with that as a concept I know but the moment we start trying to debate how many parts make a watch franken we will never come to a conclusion, that is why I proposed the percentage system. I think that very quickly people who describe their watch as a 5% franken (because it merely has a gen crown) will soon see that this is nothing special and though - yes - technically it makes it a franken by definition it really is no great shakes in fact the laughter may be audible across the ocean. Contrast that however, with a piece that has taken many months to put together and is rightfully described as a 75 or 80% franken then this will indeed carry the weight of respect that it deserves and the distinction will be clear. It is for these very reasons that I again propose a percentage system of parts classification. Please try and evaluate your own watches in this way and propose percentage figures for the parts. Ok, ok..... I suppose as this is my idea I should put ny neck on the chopping board and put forward a system for debate/shooting down/ridicule so here it is just for fun/starters: Movement - 40% Case (incl crown pushers bezel and insert) 30% Dial 20% Hands 10% The above figures could be broken down within the category to further refine the system ie the case parts could be given a value within that category as some cases are of different construction eg not all cases have pushers so a gen case with rep pushers would lose say 10% of its 30% value. Hope this makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 Personally, I would define a franken as: -Gen dial -Same base caliber movement as gen -Additional genuine parts (any combination of crown, crystal, bezel and/or insert, hands, bracelet case, but not necessarily inclusive of all) -Built from parts or dismantled watches i.e. I would consider these to be franken pieces: 9411 frankenstein: -MBW case -Gen dial -Gen hands -ETA 2783 (same as genuine) -Gen T-125 -Gen crown -Gen tube -Gen insert with tritium pearl fitted -Gen 580 end links -Gen 78360 bracelet -Gen 93150 clasp -CG's shaped -Lug holes drilled 16520 frankensteins: -Gen case (white)/aftermarket case (black) -Gen dials (both) -Gen hands (both) -EP 400/3019 movements (both) -Gen crystals -Gen crowns -Gen tube (white)/aftermarket tube (black) -Gen bezels -Gen 503B end links And I would consider this one a modded piece... 16610 modded WM9: -WM9 case -WM9 dial -WM9 hands -ETA 2836 (Swiss) -Gen 295C -Gen crown -WM9 tube -Genuine bezel assembly -Genuine insert -TW Best end links modified -WM9 outer immediate links -Noob main links -WM9 clasp Even though the Sub also has a long ingredients list comprised of several parts not original to the watch, the basis for the project is still largely based on the WM9 with some gen parts simply added. The following is a sort of grey area for me... Completely built from parts, but very little to zero gen content: Pre-A 002: -Jimmy case -FGD dial -DSN hands -Swiss 6497 -Jimmy crystal -Kruzer crown (gen?) -Jimmy tube -Unknown CG -Jimmy bezel -Dirk 2nd gen PAV style strap I'd almost be inclined to term this as a 'kit' watch. Or DIY piece... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAMman Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 I have one watch that I refer to as a 'franken'. It is a 'Panerai' built using a genuine preA1 dial, gen tritium hands, genuine crown, genuine crownguard, genuine lug screws, a Jimmy Fu 1:1 case, uncoated non-OEM sapphire crystal, decorated CdG ETA 6497-2 movement (same decoration pattern as the genuine preA) and a rep caseback. Aside from the accurate looking caseback there is no outward sign that this is anything other than genuine as the case truly is gen quality and I have a couple of gens to compare with. This may not truly be a 'franken', depending on the definition, but it sure feels like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 PAMman- I'd consider that to be a franken. At least in my book... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieselpower Posted October 20, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 All very valid and true and in my original conceptions of the word franken I could not have agreed with Ubi more. However, I am trying to quantify, accurately, with rules and facts what makes a watch a franken and what does not. I know I keep banging on about this and if everybody wants me to shut up and move on then I am more than happy to do so but can posters at least stick their necks out a bit and try to define what - specifically - makes a watch a franken and what constitutes modded or otherwise? Come on chaps - I know you can do it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stilty Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 The way I interpret 'Franken' is like this.... Each piece, by itself is dead. Uninspired. Lifeless. The sum of all the pieces in its animated, functional form results in a product greater than the sum of all the individual parts. I agree with this statement. Genuine parts are a must, especially when it comes to the dial. Simply adding genuine parts to a rep does not qualify as "franken", but rather "modified". The rep is already a living breathing watch, so to speak, and just adding parts to a living breathing watch is just upgrading or modifying. A true Franken is a watch that has been brought to life from lifeless parts. I still get a kick when I finally case a movement in a project, give it a wind, and see the sweep second begin to move! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 Well what other said.. Just putting for example a gen crown on a Panerai does not make the watch franken.. It need at least 2-3 major parts to qualify as that.. Dial and hands are the two most common since 'case' is very difficult to find genuine in most brands ... I agree. This is almost a Ship of Theseus scenario. As you say, putting a gen crown on a rep PAM would not push the watch truly into the realm of franken, merely 'modded with a gen part'. If it were a crown, crown guard, dial, bezel, OEM strap and buckle, on the other hand, that would definitely be a franken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marrickvilleboy Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 Love seeing those watches Ubi! This is a Franken. Omega seamaster 007 limited edition. -Gen Crown and tube -Gen Bezel and insert -Gen movement -Gen crystal Never selling this - ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieselpower Posted October 20, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 A very good point from my friend from across the water (stilty). Of course the essence of Shelley's creation is the fact that the 'monster' was created out of parts that were in themselves useless. Maybe we should think about a franken in those terms. Not something that started life as a fully functional watch and was adapted but more a collection of parts that a skilled person has put together to breathe life into and create a new whole entity. I'm sure that that moment of satisfaction, when a builder sees the second hand sweep across the dial of his/her creation, is a very significant one and maybe this is the true definition of a franken watch. A watch that was created by the builder out of various parts to create something totally new and individual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
torresp Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 Ok, ok..... I suppose as this is my idea I should put ny neck on the chopping board and put forward a system for debate/shooting down/ridicule so here it is just for fun/starters: Movement - 40% Case (incl crown pushers bezel and insert) 30% Dial 20% Hands 10% Damn, according to that this one is a little franken 'cause it only has a gen dial and chrono hands Hopefully this one could be, gen movement, dial and hands :p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
torresp Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 And the last one is a piece of [censored], it only has a gen movement Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
torresp Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 Just kidding, I think it's very difficult to define what a franken is; specially if we consider that each model can be close to the real deal making some improvements that not always are the same. For a PAM dial and hands could be enought but if we're talking about rolex (specially vintage) you need to add a lot of gen parts (but not necessary the same always) to obtain a franken: movement+case redone+bracelet+dot insert=franken=dial+bracelet+whole bezel? Maybe a franken is just a watch with gen parts added that nobody except member here can distinguish from the real McCoy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieselpower Posted October 20, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 @ torresp Absolutely. You could calculate the percentage of gen parts according to their values and that's that. Why be bothered by that - it makes no difference to you, the watch or anything else, it is merely a system of quantifying the "frankenness" of a watch. What are you trying to say? That your pieces are better because you 'feel' they should be? As to the last one - that would clearly have a high percentage score because of its gen movement. It clearly has much room for improvement and that would be reflected in the resulting score. I really do not see why an accurate scoring system should be a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieselpower Posted October 20, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 My post above was being typed whilst torresp was adding his. Hope crossed wires don't confuse the intent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue_sphere Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 Franken - A rep fitted with genuine parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
torresp Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 Nope, that's not my point. I meant that a scoring system could be very difficult to use just because diferent watches needs differents mods to be consider a franken. Your could apply a score to a rolex and get a franken but applying this score your could obtain a very low rated panerai even if this one is more difficult to detect as fake. Change my mind: a franken is a watch which you can use to go into a "high-end" AD and get nothing but compliments... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
torresp Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 My post above was being typed whilst torresp was adding his. Hope crossed wires don't confuse the intent. LOL, same thing happend with my wife, she was fighting me for buy a new rolex while I'm trying to explain her that was a franken :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieselpower Posted October 20, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 Nope, that's not my point. I meant that a scoring system could be very difficult to use just because diferent watches needs differents mods to be consider a franken. Your could apply a score to a rolex and get a franken but applying this score your could obtain a very low rated panerai even if this one is more difficult to detect as fake. But that's ok. As long as the rules are adhered to it doesn't matter. So a 50% Panerai would be better or worse than a 50% Rolex it doesn't matter, the point would be to compare like with like, Panny with Panny, Rlx with Rlx the 50% Pan would be better than the 40% Panny regardless of what a Rolex would score on the same scale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
torresp Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 ok, that makes sense... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 Well what other said.. Just putting for example a gen crown on a Panerai does not make the watch franken.. It need at least 2-3 major parts to qualify as that.. Dial and hands are the two most common since 'case' is very difficult to find genuine in most brands ... I disagree. Putting a gen crown or any other gen part on a rep watch turns that watch into a frankenwatch. The number of parts is irrelevant since installation of that 1 initial gen part changed the definition of the watch. If you look at it conversely, it might make more sense - If you send a gen Datejust that has been fitted with a rep crown in to an RSC, they will return the watch to you explaining that that single non-Rolex part makes the watch something other than a genuine Rolex. In other words, the watch, as far as Rolex is concerned, is a frankenwatch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 I disagree. Putting a gen crown or any other gen part on a rep watch turns that watch into a frankenwatch. The number of parts is irrelevant since installation of that 1 initial gen part changed the definition of the watch. If you look at it conversely, it might make more sense - If you send a gen Datejust that has been fitted with a rep crown in to an RSC, they will return the watch to you explaining that that single non-Rolex part makes the watch something other than a genuine Rolex. In other words, the watch, as far as Rolex is concerned, is a frankenwatch. I do see the point you're making, but it's more a technical point rather than one of 'how it feels'. I guess it could be argued that a crown swap would put a watch into franken territory, but, telling people that all that had been changed was a crown, would probably raise a few chuckles rather than appreciation. It's a bit like a discussion I had with a friend a while back. A transsexual, regardless of what is done, would never really be a female (or male) as internally, they would always remain male (or female) and their DNA would never change. However, if someone was to see a transsexual, they would do them the courtessy of treating them like a woman (or man) I guess what I'm trying to illustrate, is that just because something is technically one thing, it might not necessarily be considered as that thing, depending on people's opinions on the subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 Frank-en. Verb. The act of hanging out with someone named Frank, usually at Frank's house. "The four of us spent Saturday night just Franken and drinking some beers." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dluddy Posted October 21, 2008 Report Share Posted October 21, 2008 So, there are different grades of Franken We have Franken Lite Franken Ultimate Franken 1:1 Made from Original Franken I think we're getting close Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoJo35 Posted October 21, 2008 Report Share Posted October 21, 2008 My next project is awaiting the Dr. to return from vacation; however, is it still a franken if it's 100% gen??? Gen case Gen dial Gen hands Gen tube Gen crown Gen bezel Gen crystal Gen movement Gen bracelet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieselpower Posted October 21, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2008 Its 100% Franken. The best Franken you can get. But still Franken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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