Time for a discussion on modding!

[offshore]

With the current problems of a missing modder well evident, and discussed, I feel it is time to open a discussion about modifying watches, where all can contribute, without necessarily having to refer back to the particular incident/s.

Soooooo, doffing my moderators hat for a time, I would like to offer my opinion FWIW.

My personal take on the problems faced in contracting to have mods carried out on your watch/es, is one initially of perception.

YOU know what you want, but then very quickly, the lines of communication get blurred in trying to obtain this.

Your modder, has his own ideas, (which may not match yours), as to a satisfactory outcome.

So right from the commencement of the "contract", there can be differing concepts of the outcome.

With some exceptions, the people who have become recognised as modders, have grown from within our ranks.

And with one notable exception, (and he is specifically a VERY good watchsmith to start, who has also taken on some of this type of worK), and with due deference to those who still reside here, carrying out various levels of modifications,

ALL those who have commenced in this type of enterprise, have finally disappeared. (At least from these walls)

I could, but won't, recite the litany of problems and complaints which have flowed, with regard to mods carried out on watches, on this and other forums.

From my own experience, (and I will NEVER take on a modding project unless it is face to face...and then only really more upgrading /replacing parts and components).... watch repairers, who are only working at it part time... eventually find themselves overwhelmed with work.

I know in my (mainly) quartz market stall biz, I regularly have to take a stand, and not take on work for a few weeks to catch up. (And it still keeps on banking up)

I see a number of things happening.

The modder gets overwhelmed with work.

The modder has a series of complaints, disagreements, about perceived results.

He looks for the "escape route", either excuses, or then finally, close off communication ( Hope it will all go away)

And I am afraid we have seen this pattern, only too many times, over the years.

I can frankly say, that I refuse to do ANY work, for any forum people, unless it is face to face.

I do this as a hobby, not as an income stream, and the moment these become confused, is the start of a problem.

Enough of my input, however some real questions should be asked.

Should these forums promote or even encourage, watch modification, by other parties?

With little ability to control the actions of people off the forum, should we endorse or promote these practices?

I will leave this open for discussion, however will remind you all, that this is not posted for vendettas, or witch hunts.

If you wish to discuss individual problems, please do so elsewhere. This is put to discuss the general process of contracting, and receiving satisfaction, in the modification of a watch.

Having said all that, will now re don the mods hat, and give ample warning, that as the OP, I will remove any personal attacks on individuals in this topic.

It is for general discussion, not specific instances.

Offshore

[Star69]

my 2 cents :

you should make a difference between watchsmith and modder .... and :

someone can be only good as a watchsmith or as a modder

the amount of knowledge of genuine watches is too high -

(esp. on vintage pieces)

you will find this only from freaks like us - but never from a watchsmith.

as Replicas getting better and better there will be soon no need for "modders"

anymore - but sadly still for a watchsmith that loves to work on Asia-movements.

cheers,

Frank

[dieselpower]

I have suffered from a bad modder and I have also had the pleasure of receiving a watch that has been modded very well by a good and trusted person. In my opinion my bad experience was my own fault. I was too eager, inexperienced and unknowledgeable and did not do my homework well enough. Lesson learned.

I think that if a person puts the hours in on this forum and possibly others he will find a person with whom he is comfortable to do the work. If that work turns out to be not what he wanted then he just has to take it on the chin and move on. I know getting a good modder is not easy and I'm sure they are inundated with work but there must be some coming up through the ranks who are learning more and more as time goes by. Of course the best solution is to do it yourself but I have not yet found the courage to start. Having said that I have a broken piece which I might try to take apart and put back together again - the problem is I don't know where to start. Is there a book that would teach me the basics of assembly/disassembly?

[offshore]

PM sent.

OS

[Stephane]

I think it is a great idea from OffShore to open this thread.

Like Diesel I have experienced one very bad experience because of my lack of knowledge.

Another bad one probably because of the sum of work the modder had to do which pushed him to rush the process.

Anyway, all other experiences I had with MM or Tribal, Rosnik's watchsmith and Omega are 100% perfect in the end.

Even so, a modded watch may need a second trip to the modder for minor fixing of course.

Not mentionning the incredible 196 I got from Kruzer and that was born in Ziggy's hands or the Ingy from Bazz ARed by Chief.

Why am I listing the friends here?

Not to promote them...but to show that most of them have no section anywhere as "official modder".

So, my answer to you OffShore and to the community is: I'm not sure RWG needs such a section.

In the end, even if takes months to establish relationship with some talents here, it's better to let everyone do so than to push new comers in the hands of an official modder who might disappear on day or another.

My2EuroCents.

Stephane

[TeeJay]

Should these forums promote or even encourage, watch modification, by other parties?

With little ability to control the actions of people off the forum, should we endorse or promote these practices?

My feelings on the subject are essentially as posted in the thread on the current situation.

I can appreciate that Admin might not want the responsibility, or being held to account of any 'endorsement' which may be infered or assumed, from a person having a presence as a dealer or a modder/watch smith, but, given the amount of historical incidents of people 'going AWOL', given that it is the forums which facilitated the meeting of client and modder, I personally think it only fair that the forums equally have more detailed contact information, to be able to better facilitate resolutions to issues which may arise but be unresolveable by the two parties themselves, as an impartial third party. That is not to say that it's the fault of a forum admin, as obviously 'buyer beware' must always apply, but it would be good to know that, should incidents occur where someone stops responding to emails, there would still be someone who could have a more definite contact point which could be used in such incidents (which inevitably become group problems, rather than just a single botched transaction) This is a community, in every respect of the word. In the real world, sometimes people need 'state support'. In these incidents, sometimes, people will also require 'community support', so I just feel it would be prudent if such support/mediation be available, should it ever be required.

Just my .2c

Peace

[scotty]

Well...my feelings are as follows for what they're worth.

The core basis of this forum and essentially this hobby, is basically the pursuit of the best possible 'copy' or 'replica' of a given genuine article. Hence all the questions on 'best out of the box', or 'most accurate', and the posts on mods completed, and the questions and instructions on how to do's and who does etc.....

Starting from here, it's going to attract people to offer services. Sales of items (members and dealers) and services for mods and upgrades.

On this basis I see no reason why a modding section can't be maintained, the same way as a dealer section or a trade section.

Otherwise it would all revert to PM's and contacts outside an 'open' forum ground.

The problem seems to be the 'policing' of those offering products - dealers and modders.

Regarding dealers this seems to have sorted itself out in the main, through people posting their experiences etc.

For modders - with specific and notable exceptions - maybe here what is needed is more open communication over services and work done.

No-one is forcing anyone to come to a forum and advertise their services.

What maybe is missing is a higher sense of 'duty' from the community, to communicate experiences and worries without fear of retribution. Always where information and views are written fairly and with common sense, and with the objective of informing people for the good of all. That's what the community is about.

Then members are in a better position to make an informed decision on dealing with that individual or not, the same as occurs with the dealers.

On that basis, I'd think that what's needed is:

* the forum Admin have a better safeguard over the modders contact details and availability (by whatever means - some ideas have already been voiced). It's not their job to safeguard someone's services, but maybe they can reduce risks by adding in controls and whatever safeguards behind the scenes.

* more open posts over work received, fears and concerns. In the case of the dealers, a number of times those that are genuine (ie looking to offer good product and satisfy customer) reply and fix things.

Those that get angry, tend later to disapear.....

This would highten visibility in the community to others, that someone was going off the rails

* genuine modders should be more strcit in controlling work received - to avoid being snowed under. The member can choose to wait, leave it, or go elsewhere. Again for the good of the community.

Again - this is relating to someone offering their services openly.

Different issue over Stephane's example, where work is done by peopel with skills, on a less formal basis.

[andreww]

I think that people should always post pics of modifications. I also think that members should be honest in their appraisals of the work done. Although I was never a big fan of RBJ, he always posted pics of his work, and I don't think there is a better way to tell what is good and what isn't.

Here is a Planet Ocean, relumed by The Zigmeister. As you can see the lume appears to be applied correctly, and there is no dust, scratches, or marks to be found. 100% satisification!

[ubiquitous]

I've been solicited a number of times to help with a project, to build this or that for someone etc. And, for the most part, aside from some help and assistance that I've provided to close friends, I've never gone down that path. The problems and issues that Offshore has listed are all very probable situations that one would likely find themselves in, as the work can really get overwhelming when you have a lot of backlog building up. Add to that a few other factors like projects taking longer than usual, or requiring replacement/new parts (not all modding projects go according to plan, or with little resistance; one should always count on something at some point going awry), and it's easy to see how one's schedule can get de-railed rather quickly.

Heck... I've got enough going on with my own projects at times

[perry563]

I have been working with Bk and he has done a great job on all my modern subs and SD's. The issue I now face is really simple...or at least it should be.....WHO can I rely upon to drill the lug holes and install correct spring bars into my MBW 1665 and 1680? I have seen pictures of some obsenely bad drill jobs so I want to be sure the person who does this work has done it before and can turn the work around quickly. So far I have found no one. Maybe there should be a specific area where modders can list exactly what they can and cant do to make it easier to located a reliable person. Does anyone have a recommendation?

[scotty]

Small danger that the discussion is moving away from it's intention.

I think this thread is about how modding should be handled by the forum admin and mambers, re. a specific section and listed modders, or not.

Rather than a thread to list requests for specific work, or who does what type lists.....

Just a thought....

[jody73]

I am a new and fairly hooked member of this board. The world of reps has recently been discovered. I am very happy with the "approved" dealers that are "advertising" on this site and that current members are giving feedback on. It makes the choosing of dealer much easier.

I have bought my first rep and as it is an asian 7750 it is immediately in need of some oiling and time adjustments. I have not found a local watch smith that is interested in servicing it so I try through RWG to find one or someone who can.

I'm positive I'll be interested in mods in the future (AR, datewheel mods etc) and it seems natural to start looking here.

Whether RWG has a mod section or not I would never blame RWG (admins and moderators) for any bad experience I might receive through dealers or mods found through this site.

By having a mod section it would be easier for those interested in doing the work and for those interested in upgrading their rep finding each other. That would be positive for me as a newbie.

Cheers

jody

[freddy333]

I think the suggestion about posting pics (before & after, as well as detailed descriptions of work requested vs work performed) are the answer. The key, however, is that such info is only useful when there is a sufficient track record & a prospective customer does HIS homework before any work is contracted. And, like I always say, you have to be detailed about what you want (or do not want), get the work itemized in writing (including a realistic ETA) & DO NOT ASSUME ANYTHING. I think that if you purchase modding services using the same buying guidelines you might use when making an ebay purchase, there would be far fewer problems.

On the other hand, I know from experience that when dealing with personal possessions, especially those which people have strong emotional attachments to, even the best of intentions can result in broken hearts. After all, to paraphrase the old saw, if you want it done right (according to YOUR take on what 'right' is), do it yourself.

To modders I would also say (& I am certain that the Zigmeister would back me up on this) 'To thine own self be true'. Do not take on work that you are not 100% certain you can complete. That means accept only work that you have performed (successfully) multiple times on the same watch/movement. I think that is where many modders run into problems. You mod 1 thing & something else - that you may or may not have had direct contact with - breaks or reacts unexpectedly. Watches are complicated devices that often have minds of their own, so you MUST always have a backup plan when the unexpected occurs (&, in my albeit limited experience, the unexpected occurs with frightening regularity). For this reason, I am VERY selective about the work I accept (when I actually have time to take in new/additional work).

[Jawo]

I feel that modding is a necessity to rep collecting. The Zigmeister is the only modder I have confidence in (no disrespect to the others). I have sent him many watches and have been extremely happy with the results. He takes extreme pride in his work and it shows. I really hope he has a great trip and am eager to see him back soon. Here are some pics of his work:

IWC Cousteau

Eta Swap

Eta Datewheel Swap

Full Relume

Double AR by Chieftang, crystal removal and reinstall by The Zigmeister

IWC 3717

Eta Swap

Eta Datewheel Swap

Full Relume

Double AR by Chieftang, crystal removal and reinstall by The Zigmeister

PAM 111H

Cannon Pin Fix

Full Relume

PAM 111H

Cannon Pin Fix

Full Relume

Rolex SSD

Full Relume

I have a few more, but you might get bored

[Pugwash]

ALL those who have commenced in this type of enterprise, have finally disappeared.

This is why I don't change date-wheels for people.

It's like most things, when you're doing it for yourself, it's a hobby and you do the best job possible. When you're doing it for others, it's a job and you do as you do at work.

[TeeJay]

I feel that modding is a necessity to rep collecting. Ziggy is the only modder I have confidence in (no disrespect to the others). I have sent him many watches and have been extremely happy with the results. He takes extreme pride in his work and it shows...

The only issue, as mentioned in the thread about Jakub's disappearance, is, to be as polite about it as possible, Ziggy is very 'selective' about not only the projects he will accept, but also the people he will accept them from. Now, that's his choice, and his right, but, it leaves people who aren't in that circle of trust, pretty much out in the cold with regards finding a reliable watchsmith who is well known on the forums, so with regards the bigger picture, I think it is not only fair, but a necessity, that there be more reputable watchsmiths who people can bring their project enquiries to in addition to Ziggy

PS Those really are awesome watch shots, I only cropped them out to save space, no disrespect intended

To all in general, to stave off the comments about not answering emails or PMs for fear of being over-run with questions, or helping people and not getting the courtesy of a 'thank you' afterwards, to anyone who fears such a situation might occur, I would respectfully suggest that you do as I do, and charge for your time as a consultant. Make someone pay you up front for X amount of in depth emails, or an hours uninterrupted phone call. That will get rid of time-wasters right away, or at the very least, make sure you are compensated for taking the time to talk to them... Just a suggestion