Where are "We" going ?

[ryyannon]

[iceberg1459]

ahaha one of the best i've heard

[hambone]

Oh [censored]! I forgot how hilarious that Tom Mabe tape was. Thanks for posting it again. BTW I am looking forward to Salman Rushdies new book on the giggles of islamic fundamentalism.

[TeeJay]

Oh shit! I forgot how hilarious that Tom Mabe tape was. Thanks for posting it again. BTW I am looking forward to Salman Rushdies new book on the giggles of islamic fundamentalism.

Still confusing fundementalism with terrorism? You really need to educate yourself...

[Edit to add]

Fundamentalism:

Fundamentalism refers to a "deep and totalistic commitment" to a belief in, and strict adherence to a set of basic principles (often religious in nature), a reaction to perceived doctrinal compromises with modern social and political life.[1][2][3][4]

The term fundamentalism was originally coined to describe a narrowly defined set of beliefs that developed into a movement within the Protestant community of the United States in the early part of the 20th century, and that had its roots in the Fundamentalist-Modernist Controversy of that time. Until 1950, there was no entry for fundamentalism in the Oxford English Dictionary;[5] the derivative fundamentalist was added only in its second 1989 edition.[6]

The term fundamentalist has since been generalized to mean strong adherence to any set of beliefs in the face of criticism or unpopularity, but has by and large retained religious connotations.[6] The collective use of the term fundamentalist to describe non-Christian movements has offended some Christians who desire to retain the original definition.[who?] In addition, some writers, editors, and scholars believe that calling Muslims, Jews, Hindus, and Buddhists "fundamentalists" makes very little sense.[who?]

Rushdie came from a Shia Muslim family but says that he was never really religious. In 1990, in the "hope that it would reduce the threat of Muslims acting on the fatwa to kill him," he issued a statement in which he claimed "he had renewed his Muslim faith, had repudiated the attacks on Islam in his novel and was committed to working for better understanding of the religion across the world."

"What is needed is a move beyond tradition, nothing less than a reform movement to bring the core concepts of Islam into the modern age, a Muslim Reformation to combat not only the jihadist ideologues but also the dusty, stifling seminaries of the traditionalists, throwing open the windows to let in much-needed fresh air. (...) It is high time, for starters, that Muslims were able to study the revelation of their religion as an event inside history, not supernaturally above it. (...) Broad-mindedness is related to tolerance; open-mindedness is the sibling of peace." - Salman Rushdie

The concepts of open-mindedness and understanding with regards this topic, are utterly alien to you, aren't they.

[hambone]

It looks like TJ took the bait as I knew he would. If you can't make jokes about religion, then you are a humorless soul, because religion, all religion, and specifically a couple in particular are just so very worthy of a good jab in the funnybone. If not, the only alternative is to cry because it is just so damn sad.

[ryyannon]

Anybody remember "The Name of the Rose?"

"Ascending the forbidden library, William and Adso come face to face with the Venerable Jorge, the most ancient denizen of the abbey, who reveals the book, which contains a description of comedy and how it may be used to teach. Being afraid of laughter and comedy

[lanikai]

"The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible." - Salman Rushdie

Pretty much everyone was on the opposite side of this same argument when it was about the reactions to the Mohammed cartoons posted in Jyllands-Posten. It's the same argument, albeit on a lesser scale.

I'm not defending the image or the joke; I'm laughing at the reaction.

Of course it was offensive, but censoring it was all that was needed. Outcry was too far.

... and I'm done. You either get it by now or you don't.

Now I am getting confused with the analogy .. you mean to say that you consider a "Child" an object or "idea" .. I would say that the child in the poster is a "Human being" with feelings and dreams the same as you and I ..

And censoring it is enough.. so what happened in Auschwitz should be just censored and public outcry is carrying it "a bit much?" .. so those Human Beings should it be OK to use them as "Satire" ..

You can laugh at the reaction Pugs.. for it seems to me "you" just don't get it ..... all the semantics and so called academics does not hide the facts ..

funny I met a boy today with the same issue as the child in the poster.. he was carrying a basketball, came up to me while I was stretching just to say "hi".. and tell me proudly he was going to go upstairs and play with his brother... and I thought .. what a coincidence after some were making a "joke" yesterday..

He wasn't "Afraid" of what people may think.. which made me wonder who the real "brave ones are"

Is it they .. that have no fear what you may think .. or is it us that can find humor in such ...

Funny he didn't resemble a "joke" or "humor" in anyway..shape or form to me.. but then again that's jus me

All I have to say is .. "WHAT DO YOU ALL FEAR?" .. we joke a lot at times of things that frighten us .. or that we fear as threatening .. I guess it is how you view the world.. through what glasses you see others.. and yourself.. have you been called "short".. watch out you don't hit your head on the table counter ?

what do you fear ??

This is not an Ideal or object of religion that is made fun of .. and that is the BIG difference .. in mind sets .. they say americans always go with the "Underdog"

for me I jus don't like to see the unfortunate "picked on" or "Bully"d" .. the old saying .. pick on someone who will fight back is always alive and well.. that may not be Mensa material.. but I like it.. it would be hilarious to me to see someone's knee's buckle and fall under one crack... that would be really be hilarious.. but then again that is my sense of humor..

[ryyannon]

"All I have to say is .. "WHAT DO YOU ALL FEAR?" .. we joke a lot at times of things that frighten us .. or that we fear as threatening .. I guess it is how you view the world.. through what glasses you see others.. and yourself.. have you been called "short".. watch out you don't hit your head on the table counter ?

what do you fear ??"

And what do you fear?

You're the one going to extremes in this thread.

As for me, I consider myself a pretty normal individual. I believe that the strong are here to defend the weak. I would never consider laughing at someone's mental or physical disability. The Holocaust doesn't inspire a great deal of hilarity in me. I can't speak for everyone else on this forum, but I'd like to think that most would agree with - and more importantly, practice - what I've just said.

So what am I afraid of?

Among other things, it's people telling me when I can laugh and when I can't. People trying to limit my own nature - which I consider essentially benign - by projecting their own contradictions, taboos, conflicts and limitations upon me.

Normal people don't hurt others gratuitously and I'm rather insulted by your insistance that anyone who might find the image which started this discussion as more or less amusing (meaning in this particular case, an astute observation of human nature) would also laugh at real individuals with the same disability.

I suggest you - and all the other would-be defenders of life's underdogs - look inside yourself before accusing others of attitudes which appear to me to be largely the effect of not recognizing own's own shadow, as in: "...it would be hilarious to me to see someone's knee's buckle and fall under one crack... that would be really be hilarious.. but then again that is my sense of humor...."

If you really mean this, you're placing yourself exactly on the same level as those who you say you abhor - the only difference being that you believe that you're on the right side of the line separating the good guys from the bad....

[lanikai]

Seems like both debaters have the same mindset but different values..

I would imagine .. the "White Supremicist" groups would find humor where we would not.. I could not fathom finding any humor in the Holocoust .. but there are those sick enough to do so ..

so perhaps it is the same as me thinking that "public ridicule" of the dissabled is unacceptable .. so it would seem that we are not on the same page .. and that's OK.. such is life's choices.. and we do live in a countries that are free of censorship.. somewhat .. but understand that this poster to me was as unacceptable to me as finding humor in the Holocaust would be to all.. and them's are "my" feelings" that I choose not to ingnore.. so I "can voice" my objection.. so no one is loosing any freedoms here ...

you have your opinion.. and I have mine.. not right.. not wrong.. jus personal "feelings"

[TeeJay]

It looks like TJ took the bait as I knew he would. If you can't make jokes about religion, then you are a humorless soul, because religion, all religion, and specifically a couple in particular are just so very worthy of a good jab in the funnybone. If not, the only alternative is to cry because it is just so damn sad.

Hambone sees fit to troll me and refer to me in the third person rather than address me, so I shall do likewise.

I have no issue whatsoever with people making jokes about religion, when their jokes are intended as well-meaning. Given Hambone's well-documented distaste for Islam, which stems purely from being unable to look past his own personal grief and ignorance of the subject, it was reasonable to think that his comments were being made in an ill-spirited manner, rather than to prove the point Salman Rushdie was making. What Hambone needs to realize, is that rather than a 'jovial court jester', he is more akin to Russell Brand, and needs to stop 'crossing the line' in areas where his motivations are not crystal clear He also needs to have the courtesy to address me personally, rather than in the third person. To do otherwise, is to simply reinforce his utter lack of class and failing as a Human Being

Hambone, for all your wrist-shots-while-speeding-anti-Islamic antics, I have no issue with you, and would much prefer to have a civil conversation than this petty bullshit which you seem unable to rise above

[lanikai]

ryyannon Posted Yesterday, 04:08 PM

I suggest you - and all the other would-be defenders of life's underdogs - look inside yourself before accusing others of attitudes which appear to me to be largely the effect of not recognizing own's own shadow, as in: "...it would be hilarious to me to see someone's knee's buckle and fall under one crack... that would be really be hilarious.. but then again that is my sense of humor...."

If you really mean this, you're placing yourself exactly on the same level as those who you say you abhor - the only difference being that you believe that you're on the right side of the line separating the good guys from the bad....

Well, if the analogy creates the same feelings then then both instances did cross the line.. jus a matter of choice then .. btw.. editing the post because I gave the courtesy of not 'copying' it.. well.. let's, let this one go Ry.. it's a no win situation IMO.. no sense auguing such strong feelings..

[RobbieG]

Debates can get ugly and sometimes it is hard to see the forest through the trees when they get heated. Let's keep in mind that the real issue here is not whether one thinks it is OK to laugh or joke about something or whether they think it funny or not or what the customs are on the internet, which seems to keep being mentioned...

There also seems to be this notion sometimes that jokes of this kind are commonplace in all media. It just isn't so. Use Jay Leno if you must compare something to the mainstream. You will never hear him making a joke about being handicapped...

Lani's heart is in the right place and he is just trying to point out that maybe we should be considering the subject of the "joke" instead of the "joke" itself more carefully. The fact is none of us would think alot of things funny if they happened to us. But we have to distinguish a guy falling down the stairs from a guy who can't walk down a flight of stairs. One is funny in the sense that physical comedy is funny, one is tragic and there is not one person here who would be laughing if it were him with the disability. We can all choose to be bigger than the norm is the point. Why not be the guy who isn't laughing even though your freinds are?

Try and look at it that way instead of some issue of absolute morality being pushed on you. Sure we can and do laugh at things we shouldn't and it is the way of the world - but that doesn't mean that we should. I think Lani is just looking for us to recognize that and to be evolved enough to know the difference...

[iceberg1459]

Hambone sees fit to troll me and refer to me in the third person rather than address me, so I shall do likewise.

I have no issue whatsoever with people making jokes about religion, when their jokes are intended as well-meaning. Given Hambone's well-documented distaste for Islam, which stems purely from being unable to look past his own personal grief and ignorance of the subject, it was reasonable to think that his comments were being made in an ill-spirited manner, rather than to prove the point Salman Rushdie was making. What Hambone needs to realize, is that rather than a 'jovial court jester', he is more akin to Russell Brand, and needs to stop 'crossing the line' in areas where his motivations are not crystal clear He also needs to have the courtesy to address me personally, rather than in the third person. To do otherwise, is to simply reinforce his utter lack of class and failing as a Human Being

Hambone, for all your wrist-shots-while-speeding-anti-Islamic antics, I have no issue with you, and would much prefer to have a civil conversation than this petty [censored] which you seem unable to rise above

dont break the peace circle!!

[TeeJay]

dont break the peace circle!!

I'm not the one trolling for a reaction, so don't try and lay that shit on me. Incase you missed this part of my post, I shall repeat it:

Hambone, for all your wrist-shots-while-speeding-anti-Islamic antics, I have no issue with you, and would much prefer to have a civil conversation than this petty bullshit which you seem unable to rise above

I'm putting an olive branch out here, to someone who's behavior and attitude I consistently find offensive, because I am bigger than this petty bullshit. I have no tolerance for trolls, or being trolled, but I am trying to be the bigger man and rise above that, in an attempt to illustrate to Hambone that not every Muslim in the world is a jihad-spouting terrorist, and if he took his blinkers off, he might come to realize that.

I would like to quote from the Qur'an, a sura which particularly illustrates the attitudes which folks like Lanikai are striving to correct.

The Cow

[2.15] Allah shall pay them back their mockery, and He leaves them alone in their inordinacy, blindly wandering on.

[2.16] These are they who buy error for the right direction, so their bargain shall bring no gain, nor are they the followers of the right direction.

[2.17] Their parable is like the parable of one who kindled a fire but when it had illumined all around him, Allah took away their light, and left them in utter darkness-- they do not see.

[2.18] Deaf, dumb (and) blind, so they will not turn back.

[2.19] Or like abundant rain from the cloud in which is utter darkness and thunder and lightning; they put their fingers into their ears because of the thunder peal, for fear of death, and Allah encompasses the unbelievers.

[2.20] The lightning almost takes away their sight; whenever it shines on them they walk in it, and when it becomes dark to them they stand still; and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have taken away their hearing and their sight; surely Allah has power over all things.

[2.21] O men! serve your Lord Who created you and those before you so that you may guard (against evil).

[iceberg1459]

I'm not the one trolling for a reaction, so don't try and lay that [censored] on me. Incase you missed this part of my post, I shall repeat it:

I'm putting an olive branch out here, to someone who's behavior and attitude I consistently find offensive, because I am bigger than this petty [censored]. I have no tolerance for trolls, or being trolled, but I am trying to be the bigger man and rise above that, in an attempt to illustrate to Hambone that not every Muslim in the world is a jihad-spouting terrorist, and if he took his blinkers off, he might come to realize that.

I would like to quote from the Qur'an, a sura which particularly illustrates the attitudes which folks like Lanikai are striving to correct.

The Cow

[2.15] Allah shall pay them back their mockery, and He leaves them alone in their inordinacy, blindly wandering on.

[2.16] These are they who buy error for the right direction, so their bargain shall bring no gain, nor are they the followers of the right direction.

[2.17] Their parable is like the parable of one who kindled a fire but when it had illumined all around him, Allah took away their light, and left them in utter darkness-- they do not see.

[2.18] Deaf, dumb (and) blind, so they will not turn back.

[2.19] Or like abundant rain from the cloud in which is utter darkness and thunder and lightning; they put their fingers into their ears because of the thunder peal, for fear of death, and Allah encompasses the unbelievers.

[2.20] The lightning almost takes away their sight; whenever it shines on them they walk in it, and when it becomes dark to them they stand still; and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have taken away their hearing and their sight; surely Allah has power over all things.

[2.21] O men! serve your Lord Who created you and those before you so that you may guard (against evil).

hey i think you are going over-limit. its enough. stop being such EMOS and get over it. both of you and lanikai.

why do you feel like defending your religion? you say you want to prove that not every muslim not jihad-terrorist, but you eventually unknowingly supporting that idea with your over-reaction.

If you are a believer, you religion must be something personal between you and god and not affected by others.

Your current behaviour is very low imo.

@lanikai

you compare making fun about disabled kids with holocoust? no comment..

[TeeJay]

hey i think you are going over-limit. its enough. stop being such EMOS and get over it. both of you and lanikai.

why do you feel like defending your religion? you say you want to prove that not every muslim not jihad-terrorist, but you eventually unknowingly supporting that idea with your over-reaction.

If you are a believer, you religion must be something personal between you and god and not affected by others.

Your current behaviour is very low imo.

Why do I feel like defending my religion? Because I am sick of the anti-Islamic bullshit which Hambone spouts on a semi-regular basis, simply because he feels the need to do so 'for shits and giggles'. My behaviour is not low, I am not the one typecasting or trolling for amusement. Indeed, the nature of my belief is not 'shaken' by such comments, but I find them tedious in their ignorance. If it is indeed an 'over-reaction', it is because I find such willful ignorance frustrating, and unbecoming a supposedly educated man. If you want me to 'stop being an Emo and get over it', maybe you should tell Hambone to stop spouting ignorance under the guise of humor. Stop being an enabler for his behaviour. I am quite happy to 'let things go', as long as the ignorance also stops. I will not 'turn the other cheek', if all it is going to do, is get me slapped harder.

As I said before, I am offering an olive-branch to someone I find personally offensive, because I would rather offer the hand of friendship, than the fist of hatred. What precisely, is 'very low' about that?

[cornerstone]

Oh, for crying out loud.

No deities unless they wear a Swiss watch please, or unless the religion is keen on mechanical timepieces. Seriously.

To agree with RobbieG I think Lanikai's heart is in the right place with children (of course), but you can't make sweeping moral judgments from a single instance.

Police, lawyers, soldiers, doctors, nurses, prisoners, morticians all crack jokes about the most 'terrible' of things, because (at times at least) what other people find extraordinary is day to day life for them.

Here's something interesting. I read this in the media this week, it was a quote from an oncologist - he said the single most common response from people being told that they have terminal cancer is, after a short period of disbelief and denial, that they MAKE A JOKE.

There are no taboos, but yes, let's try not to hurt feelings.

[TeeJay]

Oh, for crying out loud.

No deities unless they wear a Swiss watch please, or unless the religion is keen on mechanical timepieces. Seriously.

To agree with RobbieG I think Lanikai's heart is in the right place with children (of course), but you can't make sweeping moral judgments from a single instance.

Police, lawyers, soldiers, doctors, nurses, prisoners, morticians all crack jokes about the most 'terrible' of things, because (at times at least) what other people find extraordinary is day to day life for them.

Here's something interesting. I read this in the media this week, it was a quote from an oncologist - he said the single most common response from people being told that they have terminal cancer is, after a short period of disbelief and denial, that they MAKE A JOKE.

There are no taboos, but yes, let's try not to hurt feelings.

That is precisely what I was trying to make clear with my posts. As with the Salman Rushdie quotes, indeed, everything should be open to debate, discussion and satire, but that does not mean 'satire for the sake of satire', because that is when things cross the line and feelings are hurt. That is what I want to see an end to.

Hambone, the olive-branch is still extended. Please prove me wrong about you by accepting it.

[cornerstone]

That wasn't what I was saying at all. I think many serious subjects fully deserve to be satirized, criticized and taken to pieces. War for example. Catch 22. Some Generals probably had their feelings hurt. My comment was in the context of Lanikai's original post.

[iceberg1459]

Why do I feel like defending my religion? Because I am sick of the anti-Islamic [censored] which Hambone spouts on a semi-regular basis, simply because he feels the need to do so 'for shits and giggles'. My behaviour is not low, I am not the one typecasting or trolling for amusement. Indeed, the nature of my belief is not 'shaken' by such comments, but I find them tedious in their ignorance. If it is indeed an 'over-reaction', it is because I find such willful ignorance frustrating, and unbecoming a supposedly educated man. If you want me to 'stop being an Emo and get over it', maybe you should tell Hambone to stop spouting ignorance under the guise of humor. Stop being an enabler for his behaviour. I am quite happy to 'let things go', as long as the ignorance also stops. I will not 'turn the other cheek', if all it is going to do, is get me slapped harder.

As I said before, I am offering an olive-branch to someone I find personally offensive, because I would rather offer the hand of friendship, than the fist of hatred. What precisely, is 'very low' about that?

man he already said himself he likes dirty jokes, if you dont like his jokes, just ignore it and dont get into arguing,especially never about religion...

[andreww]

I agree with Lani on this one. When I was a young lad, probably about 5 or 6 there was a poor family that lived in a run down house close by. The daughter, who was overweight for her age was the constant target for ridicule and taunting. Years later, when I had matured enough to think about such things, I began to think about what we had done to that poor little girl. Why had we made here young life such a living hell for things that were simply beyond her control? The guilt of this troubles me to this day, but I have learned from it and have never ridiculed anybody about their physical shortcomings to this day.

Picking on somebody's mental or physical defects is simply and easy "go to" style of insult for some people. I don't like it when professional comedians use this tactic, and I certainly don't like it when friends or acquaintances use it either. It simply shows a lack of thought, intelligence, and wit in my opinion.

[TeeJay]

That wasn't what I was saying at all. I think many serious subjects fully deserve to be satirized, criticized and taken to pieces. War for example. Catch 22. Some Generals probably had their feelings hurt. My comment was in the context of Lanikai's original post.

Then my apologies for misunderstanding. I believe the difference you are meaning, is that one, such as cancer suffers making a joke, is that it is a case of entitlement to make such a joke, rather than someone else making a joke about them. This was what I was refering to with the points I was making, when I said that sometimes, people (not just Hambone, but people in general) need to consider wether a joke really is funny, or if it is simply a tasteless comment, and, if it's the latter, then they should refrain, rather than continue.

man he already said himself he likes dirty jokes, if you dont like his jokes, just ignore it and dont get into arguing,especially never about religion...

Oh no, don't try and turn this onto me by suggesting that I should ignore his jokes. As I said before, stop being an enabler. Such comments/jokes would never be tollerated if they were racially inclined, simply because they are tasteless. There is no need for tasteless comments here. This is a watch forum. The 'shits and giggles' section, is the Loony Bin. What happens in the bin stays in the bin. These forums, are for discussion of watches, both general and specific. If someone feels the need to make such comments, then the place for those comments in the Loony Bin. It is not for people to 'ignore jokes', it is for the 'jokers' to realize that their comments can be inappropriate and unnecessary and act accordingly.

I have no beef with dirty jokes. I have no beef with religious jokes. I have a beef with people (in general) who try and get away with making tasteless comments (for the sake of making a tasteless comment) under the guise of it being 'satirical' or 'ironic', and with those who enable such needlessly tasteless comments.

This:

Was a hilarious satire.

Comments about Salman Rushdie's 'sense of humor' and 'the giggles of Fundementalism', are simply tasteless.

There is a difference. One is funny, and serves a purpose. The other is not, and does not.

As the sura I quoted hightlights, there are some people in the world who "just don't get it", and will not "get it" until the time is right for them.

As I said, the olive-branch is still fully extended, and I hope it can be accepted in the spirit with which it is intended. I haven't any more to say on this subject without repeating myself further, so I'll leave it at that

May peace be upon you all.

[Watchmeister]

I do not condone this sort of thing but I would make the following comments. Anyone who watches South Park and is protesting any cartoon offensive to any group of people that cannot defend itself is a complete hypocrite (no I don't watch it but my kids do). Second there is always a fine line between comedy and tragedy. And finally my take away from Lanikai's objection is that we should not be poking fun at those who can't defend themselves. You can agree or disagree. However if this loop becomes any nastier it will come to an end. When it becomes personal insults please take it off-line.

[lanikai]

hey i think you are going over-limit. its enough. stop being such EMOS and get over it. both of you and lanikai.

why do you feel like defending your religion? you say you want to prove that not every muslim not jihad-terrorist, but you eventually unknowingly supporting that idea with your over-reaction.

If you are a believer, you religion must be something personal between you and god and not affected by others.

Your current behaviour is very low imo.

@lanikai

you compare making fun about disabled kids with holocoust? no comment..

it seems that others feelings are not that important to you .. until U experience life it will not be i guess...

NO !.. I am not using the analogy of the Holocaust as being on the same level .. what I am trying to "illustrate" in your minds eye is my initial shock when 'viewing' something that is repulsive to me... not to be put on the same level what so ever.. but it seems that an extreme analogy was needed to make some "think" about my words as they are my "feelings" and you are right about one thing (in a row ..lol) you should make .. no comment..

this thread was meant for discussion as I was truly shocked at your posting and more so with the attitude that followed .. what may not be important to you does not mean it should not be important to others .. respect is what it boils down to..

I wish I could be as eloquent as RobbieG with words.. but I'm not .. but my feelings and values is what drives me and what I live by .. I cannot stand South Park .. and did not allow the children I was raising to watch it.. and it was not the joke but the subject of the joke that I took great offense over..

TJ is passionate about his beliefs .. to him it is an attack on his total being... I did not intend for this thread to get ugly.. or bring religion into it..

I thought it could be "discussed" without ridicule .. maybe I was hoping things could be different.. Insanity .. I guess..

perhaps we could call this one a "No contest" as no sides will come out feeling good about anything .. I am not meaning to make sweeping "moral' judgements" not trying to "Judge" at all !! just relaying my 'feelings" about these issues...

It is never my place to "Judge" anyone.. to do that would be to say I'm perfect.. far from it ...

time to move on ...

[Pugwash]

Being afraid of laughter and comedy