The fact that watches that are 5k and up can be rep'd for 300 bucks or less! A discussion on the creation of our favorite pieces and their processes.

[JuniorNA]

So we've all been sucked into this rep world as a hobby, or simply by enjoing different watches, and maintaining a reasonable budget, perhaps some of us would rather spend $300 bucks on something that would cost 6,000 to own. Maybe we cant make up our minds, and the thought of spending 3-7k on something we're not completely in love with causes it go get sick in the stomach. So naturally, we enter the world of replica watches. we fall in love, we get hooked, we buy more, we read, and we modify, we hack, we learn more, and after a while, the rep you purchased is just as good as a GEN, if not better, and the feeling you get after realizing the watch you purchased as a rep, does the same thing as a GEN, is nothing short of spectacular. after all, a gen is a gen, but if you're just a collector and enjoy different types of movements, types of watches, then a REP is for you. Of course there a many of us out there that LOVE to have Gen's just to have it. Just to know that a watch that was so individual in so many ways. Each watch has its unique flaws due to their hand-made techniques. Some gens talk 10 months to make, and the fact that you are wearing something a dedicated swiss employee spent 10 months on, i'm sure that feeling is just as good as the REP details I provided above in terms of satisfaction. The question i have is simple.

HOW?

Where do these reps come from? A manufacturer? a group of guys in a room that have watch training and realize that the same watch you buy for 10k, can be rep'd for 300 bucks? After all, it is just steel, and moving parts. The GEN's are over-charging because of the name, while the chinese have nothing to overcharge for, as nothing is authentic (except when a swiss movement is advertised, technically"

I picture a chinese food restaurance in hong kong, and in the basement, 50 chinese men with cigarettes dangling making the same watch over and over again for months, until the next batch of GEN's are chosen to be rep'd. After all, it is just steel and using a blueprint from an original. The parts were rep'd as well and made into asian valjoux but thats a different story.

What truly goes on behind the scenes, i've read that these factories are just as illegal in china as they are here, so these places often move from location to location to avoid any legal issues. but has anyone seen, or heard of the true process that goes along with it? I still get amazed that I hold a $3600 Omega PO in my hand and spent 150 bucks for it. Sure the movement wont last me forever like a GEN will, but even if the same watch stops working 3 times and i need to purchase them again, i'm stull under 10% of the gen MSRP...so my interest is peaked when it comes to being able to do the same thing for 1/10th the cost. Same goes for gucci/louis vuitton bags and such, but i feel that these time pieces are so much more intricate than stitching fabric together and giving it a logo of a well known company.

If you think about it, sapphire with AR, 317 Polished stainless steel, quality clasp, amazingly duplicated bezel...all of this can be duplicated for probably 40 bucks, not including guts....and that means these manufacturers are making almost a 200-400% markup on these watches. Imagine the markup it is for b-ling, omega, hubelot, tissot....etc. Sure it costs more when 1 guy is making the watch for 10 months, but we are clearly just paying for the name, and the movement, while everything else can be made for under 200 bucks.

I'd like to see if we can throw some ideas (or facts) on how these pieces get created, how long it takes, the process, the quality inspection, and basically have some "world of replica" talk.

I know a lot about watches, but mainly because i'll find a REP that i love, and read up on the GEN, then read up on the rep hacks, the movements, and find the best rep, not to fool anyone, but to enjoy a QUALITY piece of craftsmanship, but at a lower price.

To add more questions as they come, the gears? Made of cheap plastic? possibly less quality, maybe they'll break sooner? are the asian movements made by machines in an assembly line type of thing? are they hand made just like their GEN counterpart.

Lets share our stories, and see what we can find out about the great works of REPS and their creations.

[slay]

operating costs for a gen manufacturer who sells probably less than the rep manufacturer are much higher... but this you dont learn unless you got to a business school!

[By-Tor]

I wrote a review of gen and replica Rolexes ( Read here) where I tried to approach this subject.

When you're buying a $5000 watch, "common sense" or "value for money" have nothing to do with it. It's all passion and emotion.

[RobbieG]

I picture a chinese food restaurance in hong kong, and in the basement, 50 chinese men with cigarettes dangling making the same watch over and over again for months, until the next batch of GEN's are chosen to be rep'd.

That's pretty close to accurate. A typical 1:1 so-called super rep these days may take a year or more to come to completion from the time the host watch is purchased until release. The new UN Diver Chrono is a good example. He preordered the watch before it even hit the market, waited for it, then turned it right over to the factory. He said it would bum him out to see it in pieces all the time. I wasn't exactly waiting with baited breath or anything, and I was sworn to secrecy about the details of the project at the time, but I want to say that it was apart for at least 9 months from the time the case watch was disassembled in that case.

[RobbieG]

I wrote a review of gen and replica Rolexes ( Read here) where I tried to approach this subject.

When you're buying a $5000 watch, "common sense" or "value for money" have nothing to do with it. It's all passion and emotion.

Yeah, good point - and most people who haven't done it can't make sense of that. You have to do it a few times to understand what motivates that. Most new rep buyers assume that other buyers will make a choice to buy a gen or rep with a financial consideration and it isn't usually so.

[TeeJay]

...So naturally, we enter the world of replica watches. we fall in love, we get hooked, we buy more, we read, and we modify, we hack, we learn more, and after a while, the rep you purchased is just as good as a GEN, if not better, and the feeling you get after realizing the watch you purchased as a rep, does the same thing as a GEN, is nothing short of spectacular. after all, a gen is a gen, but if you're just a collector and enjoy different types of movements, types of watches, then a REP is for you. Of course there a many of us out there that LOVE to have Gen's just to have it. Just to know that a watch that was so individual in so many ways. Each watch has its unique flaws due to their hand-made techniques.

Couldn't agree with you more strongly. I think that's why I've been feeling my GMT Sub so much. Sure, the SMP was inheritance money. That's sentimental value. But looking down at your watch and knowing that you built it yourself, that it does what it does because you chose to make it that way, well, that just blows anything else out of the water. It's a step up from custom tailoring, because you haven't paid someone else to do it for you, you did it yourself. I guess it's akin to the pride a parent must feel in their children's accomplishments.

For me, reps give me an affordable 'parts box' to play with. Even if I won the lotto, I wouldn't go and buy a load of expensive gens, because personally, I don't think the price tags are justifiable. Overheads and advertising costs? BS. Those losses were recouped long ago with interest, there's just no need for a watch (unless it contains precious metals) to be costing crazy money.

That said, if I could afford to buy the gens of the watches I plan on buying as reps as parts donors for the GMTCSub I plan on building, I'd still do it. I wouldn't care that the ADs would probably shit bricks and have a heart attack to see such watches cannibalized, I'd still be really happy that I was wearing my watch, which I built, my way Have it your way... The BurgerKing of the watch world

[JuniorNA]

Thanks for everyone's responses so far. I have to say that I agree that a GEN is not chosen based on price, its chosen out of its history, creativity, and individuality in this huge market we love and fear. What I do say, is that I can't justify wearing a 5,000 panerai, when I know

A. no one in my life will know what it is, and B. it costs me 200 bucks to get the rep and it feels, looks, acts like the real thing. I cant justify the price at all. and I know you're buying tradition, history, knowledge, exclusivity, but then i'd rather buy the rep, i just dont know why

When someone does recoqnize my watch, i'll know enough about it that I will blow them out of the water with my stats and specs, so they will have to assume its real, otherwise i wouldnt know so much right? Its all about who knows more, the hunt vs. hunted, so if you come off knowing more about your piece, no one will questions its authenticity.

Now here is the thing, a lot of people will tell you they do it for themselves, they dont care who recognizes the piece their wearing, and they dont care if people stop you and ask about your watch. I do agree to some point that we collectors are not doing it for being noticed, we're just doing it out of a hobby, but then why are we working so hard to get our rep watch to work properly, and why is it such a top priority to tweak it and hack it. Couldnt we just spend 300 bucks on a citizen eco-drive and never deal with clock adjustments again? There is no such thing as "NO vanity" when it comes to collecting REPS, because thats exactly what it is, its us as the collector trying to find the best mimick piece around, and after we get it, we hack it to make it more reliable on the wrist. So I dont know if i believe people when they say "I do it for myself, i dont care if anyone notices", then all of this REP business would have been created for nothing if there were not people like me (admittedly) that enjoy a rep on the arm for nothing OTHER than vanity, and to enjoy a $5,000 watch piece on my wrist for 300 dollars.

and TeeJay brings up an awesome point, its not like if we win the lotto, we're going to go out and buy 10 GEN's, and start ripping them apart and using them as toys. its just the fact of owning such a close replica, being able to mod it, and interchange parts with the GEN! Its the fact that we enjoy the hobby more than we enjoy the prices...and after all of this knowledge, we can look down (like teejay) said, and truly said, this watch was 50% upgraded by ME. and if no one notices, who cares, but when someoen does notice, i'll have the knowledge, and my piece will have the looks and guts to prove its point.

Edited January 17, 2009 by JuniorNA

[palidin]

A dealer I spoke with at length once, who was propositioning me to become a dealer, stated that the factories he dealt with in China were amazing, and completely "state-of-the-art." He made it sound like it was a top flight operation, albeit illegal.

[Dani]

Gen factorys are the ones that not only makes the watches but also plan them,drawings,design and more.

its not only slap a steel bar into a machine kind of thing to make a watch.

i think for example the breitling emergency is good value for the money..I don't think the big pilot is good value..get my drift..

[Tranman]

To me, a part of the hobby of collecting reps is just that, it is a hobby and I enjoy it. Ppl collect reps for so many reasons and for each individual collector it is a combination of all those reasons. For some it is purely cost while for others it is purely for the enjoyment and passion of it.

As far as reps go, I make a very nice, way above average income but can not get myself to pay 5k for a gen when I can get one that is 96% same for 10% of the cost. I fall in the same group as the lotto winners. I just wouldn't spend the $ on a bunch of gens.

At the same time, I'm a fisherman as well. In that department, every fish I catch cost me 10x more than if I went to the store and bought the dang thing. But yet I keep fishing. why? How do I justify the cost and time as it makes no sense. B/c it's more about the enjoyment of it above just eating the fish.

I like the anticipation the day before. Preparing all the gear and tools needed. The process of going on the hunt. Waiting, agonizing, and the elation of the hook and tight lines. Taking the catch home and putting it on the grill.

[TeeJay]

Thanks for everyone's responses so far. I have to say that I agree that a GEN is not chosen based on price, its chosen out of its history, creativity, and individuality in this huge market we love and fear. What I do say, is that I can't justify wearing a 5,000 panerai, when I know

A. no one in my life will know what it is, and B. it costs me 200 bucks to get the rep and it feels, looks, acts like the real thing. I cant justify the price at all. and I know you're buying tradition, history, knowledge, exclusivity, but then i'd rather buy the rep, i just dont know why

Personally, I take an interest in the traditions and history behind the watches, but, I still prefer to buy reps, because at heart, I'm a cheap bastard When I was wearing my 029a on vacation in Spain, and someone we were dining with asked me about it, I was able to tell them just as much about the history of the company as I could have it had been a gen, so I don't consider that any disrespect to the heritage at all, as the story is still being told with respect. In circumstances like that, when someone is simply showing an interest in a watch, I don't think it matters if is rep or gen, as they're interested in the watch itself, so it's not actually a question of it being rep or gen.

When someone does recoqnize my watch, i'll know enough about it that I will blow them out of the water with my stats and specs, so they will have to assume its real, otherwise i wouldnt know so much right? Its all about who knows more, the hunt vs. hunted, so if you come off knowing more about your piece, no one will questions its authenticity.

I'd have to disagree with you there. Someone might know a watch inside and out, but, at the end of the day, if someone suspects that a watch is a rep (and to be honest, it is) trying to convince them otherwise, is a pointless exercise. Most people have the manners not to ask if a watch is rep or gen, and those who don't, and do ask, they certainly don't deserve an intelligent response I think a chuckle and "who cares?" is all they deserve Trying to pass a rep off as gen is just asking for public humiliation

Now here is the thing, a lot of people will tell you they do it for themselves, they dont care who recognizes the piece their wearing, and they dont care if people stop you and ask about your watch. I do agree to some point that we collectors are not doing it for being noticed, we're just doing it out of a hobby, but then why are we working so hard to get our rep watch to work properly, and why is it such a top priority to tweak it and hack it. Couldnt we just spend 300 bucks on a citizen eco-drive and never deal with clock adjustments again? There is no such thing as "NO vanity" when it comes to collecting REPS, because thats exactly what it is, its us as the collector trying to find the best mimick piece around, and after we get it, we hack it to make it more reliable on the wrist. So I dont know if i believe people when they say "I do it for myself, i dont care if anyone notices", then all of this REP business would have been created for nothing if there were not people like me (admittedly) that enjoy a rep on the arm for nothing OTHER than vanity, and to enjoy a $5,000 watch piece on my wrist for 300 dollars.

I think it depends on why someone is modding a watch to truly answer that. Someone might want to get the most accurate looking watch, so they'll have the satisfaction of something which looks just as nice as a crazy money gen, but cost a fraction of the cost. Then you've got the crazy bastards like me, who will modify a watch, not for accuracy of replication to the gen, but for personal aesthetic or functional requirements. I didn't build my GMT Sub because I wanted to be wearing a Rolex (because that's the bestest brand EVER!!!1 ) , it was just a case of those were the parts which I thought would fit together, and were easy to obtain, and result in an actual unique watch. Doing a similar thing with an Omega Seamaster, would be pointless. The SMP is available with GMT complication, and all a dial swap would achieve, would essentially, be removing the identifier GMT from the dial... The rest of the dial would be the same. With Rolex however, there is no GMT Submariner made. The GMT watches which visually resemble the Submariner have only ever been identified as GMT Masters, or, in different casing, the Explorer range. I was just going with the parts to give me what I wanted: A Rolex Submariner, with a GMT complication

and TeeJay brings up an awesome point, its not like if we win the lotto, we're going to go out and buy 10 GEN's, and start ripping them apart and using them as toys. its just the fact of owning such a close replica, being able to mod it, and interchange parts with the GEN! Its the fact that we enjoy the hobby more than we enjoy the prices...and after all of this knowledge, we can look down (like teejay) said, and truly said, this watch was 50% upgraded by ME. and if no one notices, who cares, but when someoen does notice, i'll have the knowledge, and my piece will have the looks and guts to prove its point.

I think you misunderstood me slightly, bro. If I won the lotto, I would not suddenly start buying gens just so the watches in my collection would be gens rather than reps, but, if it was a case of having the funds to afford to build my GMTCSub out of gen watches, while I probably wouldn't do it, feeling the money could be better spent, but, from the perpective of actually butchering some Rollies, I wouldn't hesitate to actually do it, simply for the sheer bloody-mindedness of doing it, and the satisfaction of knowing that not only was the watch precicely what I wanted (as mentioned above) but also the satisfaction of knowing that it was actually built out of OEM parts, totally against the manufacturer's intentions

To be honest, I couldn't care less if the watch I build is gen or rep, either way, it'll still be a watch which I personally put together 'my way', or my own pleasure, and that individuality transcends distinctions of rep or gen, especially in the eyes of the general public. Sure, tell them something is a rep, and they're going to think "it's a cheap-ass fake..." Tell them that you built it yourself, and regardless of the parts used, it becomes interesting as a watch in its own right

[JuniorNA]

I see what you mean now TeeJay, and it truly is a hobby in which each enthusiast has their own personal reasons as to why they do it. I think the point you made about giving the history of your watch should someone ask, regardless if it is a rep or not, is very true. You are still treating these manufcrs. with respect and dignity regardless if there is a Gen or Rep on your wrist. I am also like you, I'm a cheap bastard and would rather by the REP than the GEN. But for me, (and everyone is different) its about seeing and being a part of a recreation of an expensive piece, finding its flaws, fixing the flaws, and truly enjoying the modification of it, and naturally, to make it look as close as it can to a GEN. Some people say that buying a rep means "you want to look cool" and I tell them thats not true, mind you I do want to have a nice expensive watch on my wrist for the fraction of the cost, but I couldnt care less if anyone even looks at my watch. IF i never get a compliment for the remainder of my life on what is on my wrist, it will never stop me from enjoying reps and enjoying the hobby as a whole. For me, it all started when my friend spent 2k on a used PAM 111, it has scratches on the front, back exhibition sapphire was scratched (somehow!) and I had a $200 rep right next to it. He immediately started to get [censored] because his overtime, and weekend hours that he worked just to BUY a used one lost all justification of his expensive time piece. He returned the used GEN (had 10 days to return if he didnt like on a used purchase) and purchased the rep and is now much happier, and now has $1800 bucks in his pocket.

Also, i'd like to say, someone will think what they want about you having a REP or a GEN before they even see the watch, or have a conversation with you. The few people in your lives, or strangers, that do know about watches, will immediately have an opinion, based on the car you drive, your clothes you wear, and your history (if they know you). If you have a $6k watch on your wrist, and have asked for money for burger king the majority of your life, then its pretty easy to tell that you have a rep, or you hit the lotto and didnt tell anyone But once again, thats only if you care what people think. I for one have a good job, good pay, and having a PAN gen, and a B-Ling Gen is completely believable. But for someone to have a $35,000 chopard and they work in customer service, i'd like to think thats a REP before I even talk to the person wearing the watch. but then again, there I go again casting opinions and judging people :)

We've derailed from the original question is "how" the chinese are doing this. How the replication is so on point (for the most part) and since it's illegal there too, how are they having these manufacturer locations and once they get the rep and dissect it and get the first one replicated, is it a matter of just doing it again, does it go through a machine? or is it still hand made like the GEN, but with cheaper parts.

[TeeJay]

I see what you mean now TeeJay, and it truly is a hobby in which each enthusiast has their own personal reasons as to why they do it. I think the point you made about giving the history of your watch should someone ask, regardless if it is a rep or not, is very true. You are still treating these manufcrs. with respect and dignity regardless if there is a Gen or Rep on your wrist. I am also like you, I'm a cheap bastard and would rather by the REP than the GEN. But for me, (and everyone is different) its about seeing and being a part of a recreation of an expensive piece, finding its flaws, fixing the flaws, and truly enjoying the modification of it, and naturally, to make it look as close as it can to a GEN.

Don't get me wrong, with some stuff, I'll pay whatever it costs, I've always been a believer in the motto "it costs what it costs", but, if I can get a cheaper alternative, then in most instances, that'll be my choice

The funny thing, is that I've never actually modded a watch to get it visually closer to a gen, for the sake of getting it visually closer to a gen. When I installed a black second-sweep hand on my 113, it was because the factory-installed white hand, simply wasn't clear against the white dial. Sure, the outcome was that it was visually closer to the gen, but that wasn't actually my intention when doing it

Some people say that buying a rep means "you want to look cool" and I tell them thats not true, mind you I do want to have a nice expensive watch on my wrist for the fraction of the cost, but I couldnt care less if anyone even looks at my watch. IF i never get a compliment for the remainder of my life on what is on my wrist, it will never stop me from enjoying reps and enjoying the hobby as a whole.

Indeed, I think anyone who does say that other people are doing it to 'look cool', are just insecure and trying to knock a homey's hussle. Yes, people want to wear nice watches, but that's because they want to wear a nice watch. People like to wear nice clothes, but it isn't so much a case of trying to impress anyone, it's just a case of wanting to look presentable The Rolex I cobbled together (in the wrist check) and wore last night, didn't get one word spoken about it, but, it was perfect for what I was wearing. It definitely got eyeballed a few times, but no one said anything. I'll take that over "Is that real??!!!" or "Nice watch!" any day of the week, as it means someone's appreciating the watch, but keeping it to themselves

For me, it all started when my friend spent 2k on a used PAM 111, it has scratches on the front, back exhibition sapphire was scratched (somehow!) and I had a $200 rep right next to it. He immediately started to get [censored] because his overtime, and weekend hours that he worked just to BUY a used one lost all justification of his expensive time piece. He returned the used GEN (had 10 days to return if he didnt like on a used purchase) and purchased the rep and is now much happier, and now has $1800 bucks in his pocket.

That's an awesome example I hope your friend told the AD he was returning it to buy a cheaper rep of the same watch That'd've really bugged them The crazy thing about it, is that your friend is probably just as happy with the rep, if not more so, than he would've been with the gen As I've said before, rep or gen, expensive or cheaper, a nice watch, will always be a nice watch, regardless of what the dial or price tag says

Also, i'd like to say, someone will think what they want about you having a REP or a GEN before they even see the watch, or have a conversation with you. The few people in your lives, or strangers, that do know about watches, will immediately have an opinion, based on the car you drive, your clothes you wear, and your history (if they know you). If you have a $6k watch on your wrist, and have asked for money for burger king the majority of your life, then its pretty easy to tell that you have a rep, or you hit the lotto and didnt tell anyone But once again, thats only if you care what people think.

Precisely The other thing which needs to be taken into account, is the ponce bigging it up at the bar, shaking his wrist every 2 seconds to get the attention, even if he happens to be wearing a gen (but chances are, that kind of behaviour it'll be a rep) will be thought of much worse, than the person sitting quietly, wearing a rep, which only gets exposed when he raises his arm to take a drink

I for one have a good job, good pay, and having a PAN gen, and a B-Ling Gen is completely believable. But for someone to have a $35,000 chopard and they work in customer service, i'd like to think thats a REP before I even talk to the person wearing the watch. but then again, there I go again casting opinions and judging people :)

I know what you mean, in theory, the person behind the till might not be in the pay bracket to afford a gen, but, there are always factors to through the equasion... Graduation presents, inheritance (either the item itself, or the cash used to buy it) random fluke like snagging a watch put for the stake in a poker game... Unless the dial reads 'Bolex', it's always possible that a watch is genuine, even if unlikely... I remember once sitting opposite a businessman on a train coming out of London wearing a TT Sub. At first glance, one might think 'gen', but, his clothes looked like they'd come from a thrift store, and I figure someone working in the city, able to afford a TT Sub, would at least be able to afford a decent suit for work Also, although he might admittedly have simply been tired, but his entire demeanor was, well, let's just say a tattoo on his foreheard reading 'PWNED!' would have just about summed it up Equally, another time, I saw a guy of similar age wearing a TT Sub with jeans and a Ralph Lauren polo shirt, but, he didn't have a 'broken by the system' air about him, and his clothes, while worn, were at least good quality. I figured he probably had the kind of position where he could wear what he wanted

We've derailed from the original question is "how" the chinese are doing this. How the replication is so on point (for the most part) and since it's illegal there too, how are they having these manufacturer locations and once they get the rep and dissect it and get the first one replicated, is it a matter of just doing it again, does it go through a machine? or is it still hand made like the GEN, but with cheaper parts.

Well, there's the factories who just buy a gen, dismantle it, and then copy every part, and there's also the factories which are contracted by the companies to produce the parts (such as highlighted by the Hublot BigBang fiasco) and who just make surplus parts to pass on.

And probably several other sources as well My dad used to work in engineering, and the company he worked for dealt a lot with formula one commissions, as well as other industrial component manufacturers, and it ultimately just comes down to having an adequately stocked machine shop, the people to operate the machinery, and the raw materials for manufacture. If something can be made by one person, then it's possible for someone else to replicate it

[RobbieG]

What I do say, is that I can't justify wearing a 5,000 panerai, when I know

A. no one in my life will know what it is, and B. it costs me 200 bucks to get the rep and it feels, looks, acts like the real thing.

Let me weigh in here guys with the contrarian view. First off, IMO if you ever even consider buying a luxury watch with a wonder of whether anyone will know what it is you are probably missing the fine details that make these pieces exceptional. If you are talking about visual cues, you are right that most good reps come so close to being visually accurate it is hardly even worth the conversation. I would also argue that perfectly objectively, 200 bucks doesn't buy something that truly feels, looks, acts like the real thing in my experience - not without a lot of work and even then it depends on the watch and it still won't be quite the same.

But that said, the little details that truly signal quality are almost always missing in reps. Crooked indices, grinding sounds when using the crown, stripped threads, floppy levers, uneven lume, poor quality glass, unoiled movements, play in hands, sloppy printing, datewheel misalignment, and my favorite - quality and final finish of the steel itself.

Simply put, there are major differences and just because they look close and/or get to 98% or whatever the other 2% is a world apart. The debate lies in whether a person feels that they are important or not. I, of course, do. Very much so. But I suspect many here probably don't and the ones that do can easily be spotted as they usually have less reps in their collections.

Most of the things (but not all) that I mentioned can be corrected by modding, tweaking, etc. The issue for me is whether I have the inclination to bother with it. I used to, but not anymore. I found that I would do all of it and instead of being rewarded there would always be something that still wasn't right. I am drawn to the perfection of it all above all else so for me, if I truly love a watch and its design I want to have the highest achievement of it. Period. But it isn't for knowing what I have or what others think, it is for me and me alone.

Liking fine things that happen to be very expensive isn't snobbery, nor is it absurd to spend money on something that can and has been replicated. So what? They make generic cola that looks and taste a lot like Coke for half the money and I still buy Coke. The cost of anything is relative really.

The one thing that I always feel like I have to defend is the notion that it is a fact that Swiss watches are overpriced. For that matter I suppose reps are overpriced as I would think anything that wasn't the highest quality to be so. It is a personal decision and the cost of material has no basis in that discussion. There can't be a fair comparision unless the items are equal and they aren't. The gap money is the amount one is either willing to pay for perfection or willing to not pay because it is "good enough" for him. That is all...

As an example, I had a IWC Slevin rep and ended up getting the gen version in Ti. The Slevin rep was $300 and the gen was $5500. Very similar, but here are the differences. The rep had caked on dust and fingerprints under the glass, three crooked indices, a sticky pusher, a terrible lume application, bad rate results, dirty unoiled movement, and my favorite - the bezel mechanism had about a 16th of play in it and wouldn't land in the center. Did the watches look to be the same quality from arms length? Sure. But the details that I find a bare minimum in any nice watch were all missing. So it wasn't even a moments decision to spend the additional $5200 to have those items be right. But the rep served its purpose. I bought it to see if I would really like the design and would want to have it as a permanent part of my collection. I did.

But I think you see my point. Many people on these boards buy reps to save money on the genuine counterparts. Many buy them to be able to feel like they are wearing a luxury item that they couldn't ordinarily afford but look like they can and be noticed by others or whatever. And everything in between. I know I am probably the exception given that I have evolved to use reps simply as a trial run for potential future gen purchases. We all have our thing.

In my current box the pieces in there have a retail value of nearly $30K. That scares me now that I say that as I realize what I scaled back from. Silly. But I was right to do so. No sense in being wasteful. If they were all reps I would have maybe $1500 at most in them. Or would it - because I wouldn't have 5 reps I would have probably 50 by now if I had kept going. Anyway, I realize it is a huge price differential but again, it is how much you are willing to pay for what moves you? In my life experience I can say one thing for sure and that is my comfort level and pleasure is usually found when I pay more for things rather than less. Watches, hotels, sheets, booze, clothes, cars, etc. In each one of those items there will always be a way to say that we are overpaying for something that is not needed. Will I not be able to sleep with 600 thread count? Must I really have 1000? If hotels are for sleeping why pay $700 a night with a butler on your floor when you can get a bed for $38 at Quality Inn or whatever? $7 a bottle Scotch still gets you drunk but do you want to drink it? You might say that I'm the poster child for the saying, "Life is too short" When in doubt, I ratchet up rather than down because hey, why not travel in style when you can. Call me a snob, but Kn*b Creek tastes better than cheap bourbon to my taste buds...

Watches are no different. We all know that if you want pure perfection from any particular watch you have to get the gen - or do some major modding. It is kind of a joke around here when someone starts complaining about rep issues. We say almost in unison "Dude, you better get the gen then." I realized I was on of those guys so I stopped buying and stopped complaining. But if the details don't move you, why bother? A rep is more than fine if all you are about is looking down and seeing something that is 95% or more visually accurate to the gen. The point being that this debate can never really be a worthwhile one as there is only one thing to consider: There is no answer as to whether a rep is better than a gen or vice versa for the money. It is a loaded question. The better debate is not a debate but a poll which says knowing that reps are flawed and gens are not, but reps are economical and gens are way more expensive consider this: Do you care about details enough to pay through the nose for them for them or would you rather have something which is "close enough" and save the money because you don't care about those details so much?

I also think that the longer you are collecting reps you can get jaded too. When you are newer at it and just buying everything in sight in the honeymoon you don't have time to reflect as much and consider the collection and where you are going at first. It seems like we all get more refined into one mode of thinking or another as we move through the years. Anyway, I would like to hear the debate from that angle - the "Who cares about details" and who doesn't angle that is. I think the money aspect of it matters less if you are firmly planted on one side of the fence or another.

.02

[automatico]

"I still get amazed that I hold a $3600 Omega PO in my hand and spent 150 bucks for it. Sure the movement wont last me forever like a GEN will, but even if the same watch stops working 3 times and i need to purchase them again, i'm stull under 10% of the gen MSRP...so my interest is peaked when it comes to being able to do the same thing for 1/10th the cost."

Imho, a brand new $3600 retail omega PO is maybe a $1000 watch at best.

Why $1000?

Because I do not want one and $1000 is more than I would pay unless I had it sold for $1100.

Many replica owners (not me for sure) assume the genuine omega PO is far superior to a swiss eta replica (genuine swiss eta! with oil! hold the hair!), but other than water resistance, I doubt there is much difference in eveyday wear.

They both age at about the same rate...bumps and scratches take their toll and sunlight fades the dials. They both will need service in a few years.

The genuine $3600 OPO can be repaired with high priced omega parts and service.

You are on your own for replica replacement parts and service.

The big problem with replicas (in my experience) are crappy crowns, case tubes, bracelet screws, markers falling off dials etc...and no parts.

Someone might ask you if it is genuine or not but who cares? Anyone asks me, I always say the watch is fake no matter what because outsiders think all swiss watches are fakes anyway.

Example:

Some Goofball asked me the other day if the Kienzle Atlantis I was wearing was fake.

I said fake what?

They looked at it close and replied fake panerai.

I said it must be because it says Kienzle on the dial.

Today I am wearing a Citizen Eco-Drive world time and before the day is over, some Goofball may ask if it's a fake ebel voyager.

I guess it is.

You pays your money and you takes you' choice.

[Dani]

"I still get amazed that I hold a $3600 Omega PO in my hand and spent 150 bucks for it. Sure the movement wont last me forever like a GEN will, but even if the same watch stops working 3 times and i need to purchase them again, i'm stull under 10% of the gen MSRP...so my interest is peaked when it comes to being able to do the same thing for 1/10th the cost."

Imho, a brand new $3600 retail omega PO is maybe a $1000 watch at best.

Why $1000?

Because I do not want one and $1000 is more than I would pay unless I had it sold for $1100.

Many replica owners (not me for sure) assume the genuine omega PO is far superior to a swiss eta replica (genuine swiss eta! with oil! hold the hair!), but other than water resistance, I doubt there is much difference in eveyday wear.

They both age at about the same rate...bumps and scratches take their toll and sunlight fades the dials. They both will need service in a few years.

The genuine $3600 OPO can be repaired with high priced omega parts and service.

You are on your own for replica replacement parts and service.

The big problem with replicas (in my experience) are crappy crowns, case tubes, bracelet screws, markers falling off dials etc...and no parts.

Someone might ask you if it is genuine or not but who cares? Anyone asks me, I always say the watch is fake no matter what because outsiders think all swiss watches are fakes anyway.

Example:

Some Goofball asked me the other day if the Kienzle Atlantis I was wearing was fake.

I said fake what?

They looked at it close and replied fake panerai.

I said it must be because it says Kienzle on the dial.

Today I am wearing a Citizen Eco-Drive world time and before the day is over, some Goofball may ask if it's a fake ebel voyager.

I guess it is.

You pays your money and you takes you' choice.

i did thake my choice and bought a 15000$ EWA and a 3500$ breitling emergency ohh did i forget the iwc big pilot for 10k$ sold but missed.reps sucks yeah they are fun but in the end its a fake nothing more and almost all reps have stupid flaws that will agrevate you each time you look at the watch..

nothing beats a gen sorry.

[TeeJay]

Let me weigh in here guys with the contrarian view. First off, IMO if you ever even consider buying a luxury watch with a wonder of whether anyone will know what it is you are probably missing the fine details that make these pieces exceptional. If you are talking about visual cues, you are right that most good reps come so close to being visually accurate it is hardly even worth the conversation. I would also argue that perfectly objectively, 200 bucks doesn't buy something that truly feels, looks, acts like the real thing in my experience - not without a lot of work and even then it depends on the watch and it still won't be quite the same.

But that said, the little details that truly signal quality are almost always missing in reps. Crooked indices, grinding sounds when using the crown, stripped threads, floppy levers, uneven lume, poor quality glass, unoiled movements, play in hands, sloppy printing, datewheel misalignment, and my favorite - quality and final finish of the steel itself.

Simply put, there are major differences and just because they look close and/or get to 98% or whatever the other 2% is a world apart. The debate lies in whether a person feels that they are important or not. I, of course, do. Very much so. But I suspect many here probably don't and the ones that do can easily be spotted as they usually have less reps in their collections.

Most of the things (but not all) that I mentioned can be corrected by modding, tweaking, etc. The issue for me is whether I have the inclination to bother with it. I used to, but not anymore. I found that I would do all of it and instead of being rewarded there would always be something that still wasn't right. I am drawn to the perfection of it all above all else so for me, if I truly love a watch and its design I want to have the highest achievement of it. Period. But it isn't for knowing what I have or what others think, it is for me and me alone.

Liking fine things that happen to be very expensive isn't snobbery, nor is it absurd to spend money on something that can and has been replicated. So what? They make generic cola that looks and taste a lot like Coke for half the money and I still buy Coke. The cost of anything is relative really.

The one thing that I always feel like I have to defend is the notion that it is a fact that Swiss watches are overpriced. For that matter I suppose reps are overpriced as I would think anything that wasn't the highest quality to be so. It is a personal decision and the cost of material has no basis in that discussion. There can't be a fair comparision unless the items are equal and they aren't. The gap money is the amount one is either willing to pay for perfection or willing to not pay because it is "good enough" for him. That is all...

As an example, I had a IWC Slevin rep and ended up getting the gen version in Ti. The Slevin rep was $300 and the gen was $5500. Very similar, but here are the differences. The rep had caked on dust and fingerprints under the glass, three crooked indices, a sticky pusher, a terrible lume application, bad rate results, dirty unoiled movement, and my favorite - the bezel mechanism had about a 16th of play in it and wouldn't land in the center. Did the watches look to be the same quality from arms length? Sure. But the details that I find a bare minimum in any nice watch were all missing. So it wasn't even a moments decision to spend the additional $5200 to have those items be right. But the rep served its purpose. I bought it to see if I would really like the design and would want to have it as a permanent part of my collection. I did.

But I think you see my point. Many people on these boards buy reps to save money on the genuine counterparts. Many buy them to be able to feel like they are wearing a luxury item that they couldn't ordinarily afford but look like they can and be noticed by others or whatever. And everything in between. I know I am probably the exception given that I have evolved to use reps simply as a trial run for potential future gen purchases. We all have our thing.

In my current box the pieces in there have a retail value of nearly $30K. That scares me now that I say that as I realize what I scaled back from. Silly. But I was right to do so. No sense in being wasteful. If they were all reps I would have maybe $1500 at most in them. Or would it - because I wouldn't have 5 reps I would have probably 50 by now if I had kept going. Anyway, I realize it is a huge price differential but again, it is how much you are willing to pay for what moves you? In my life experience I can say one thing for sure and that is my comfort level and pleasure is usually found when I pay more for things rather than less. Watches, hotels, sheets, booze, clothes, cars, etc. In each one of those items there will always be a way to say that we are overpaying for something that is not needed. Will I not be able to sleep with 600 thread count? Must I really have 1000? If hotels are for sleeping why pay $700 a night with a butler on your floor when you can get a bed for $38 at Quality Inn or whatever? $7 a bottle Scotch still gets you drunk but do you want to drink it? You might say that I'm the poster child for the saying, "Life is too short" When in doubt, I ratchet up rather than down because hey, why not travel in style when you can. Call me a snob, but [censored] Creek tastes better than cheap bourbon to my taste buds...

Watches are no different. We all know that if you want pure perfection from any particular watch you have to get the gen - or do some major modding. It is kind of a joke around here when someone starts complaining about rep issues. We say almost in unison "Dude, you better get the gen then." I realized I was on of those guys so I stopped buying and stopped complaining. But if the details don't move you, why bother? A rep is more than fine if all you are about is looking down and seeing something that is 95% or more visually accurate to the gen. The point being that this debate can never really be a worthwhile one as there is only one thing to consider: There is no answer as to whether a rep is better than a gen or vice versa for the money. It is a loaded question. The better debate is not a debate but a poll which says knowing that reps are flawed and gens are not, but reps are economical and gens are way more expensive consider this: Do you care about details enough to pay through the nose for them for them or would you rather have something which is "close enough" and save the money because you don't care about those details so much?

I also think that the longer you are collecting reps you can get jaded too. When you are newer at it and just buying everything in sight in the honeymoon you don't have time to reflect as much and consider the collection and where you are going at first. It seems like we all get more refined into one mode of thinking or another as we move through the years. Anyway, I would like to hear the debate from that angle - the "Who cares about details" and who doesn't angle that is. I think the money aspect of it matters less if you are firmly planted on one side of the fence or another.

.02

I do see your point, bro, and I would agree, that with some things, yes, paying a higher price will often result in a superior product. However, I don't think that that necessarily renders the cheaper product unacceptable... To use coke as an example which you mentioned, I've found that some generic colas have a taste very different to Coca Cola, but that taste, is still pleasant. I do understand what you mean, no, it's not snobbery, and it's not even elitism. I guess all I can call it, 'is an appreciation for the finer things in life': A case of being used to top rate quality, and being prepared to pay for it, on the understanding that you are actually getting something for your money. In a way, I'm the same, in that I'm prepared to pay more for something if I feel like it, but in many situations (and simply because life hasn't been as financially kind to me as others) I'm mostly unwilling to pay the higher price tag, simply because I cannot justify it to myself. To me, I can't justify buying one bottle of Pepsi (which totally PWNS coke ) when for the same amount, I can buy two, maybe three bottles of supermarket generic, which I will enjoy just as much as the Pepsi. I drink a lot of cola, due to hypoglycemia, so for me, it's more beneficial to have a longer-lasting supply, than a smaller quantity with the brand name From that point of view, I am getting more for my money by buying cheap, rather than 'getting more for my money' in terms of quality...

With regards watches, the only rep I bought which really fits in the catagory of flaws you described, would be the canal st. PAM I bought in Spain last year. Other than that, even though the watches I've bought could not be considered 'super reps', I don't think any of them have had the kind of flaws you've described. Even the Rolex I'm wearing now, the only issue with the dial, is because I wanted to 'paint over' the dial print. The indices are all on straight, the print is of even quality, and, as I mentioned before, the lume lasted for 8 hours. If the hands weren't vintage, and matched the indices, and if I hadn't taken a Sharpie to the dial ( ) then it would look like a reasonably nice watch. Oh, the bezel teeth could probably be better, but, for my plans, I think the 'lighter' teeth will look better (I want it to look like an elegant watch) than the more deep teeth of an out and out 'action Sub'.

It's like when we were discussing the different properties of the various precious metals. There does come a certain point when the property of the precious metal simply cannot be substituted with the rep. But, that's when it comes down to the point you made, is that difference, really worth the additional costs? Financially, I would say yes, because the metal is worth that money, and without that metal in the rep, it will never fully replicate the gen. But, on a personal level, I can only say that I can't justify the amount (if I could afford it ) simply because to me, that kind of detail, while something I can appreciate, is not one of my priorities for actually buying the watch. When I tried on the GMTIIC, I was actually impressed with the feel of it as a watch. It had 'the feel' which I wanted a Rolex to have, when I first strapped on a Sub a few years back, and thought it felt like a lightweight piece of garbage. The GMTIIC gave me the feeling I was expecting, but by the same token, the Explorer II which I tried on, I couldn't get it off my wrist quickly enough. It looked and felt like crap on my wrist. It felt no better than any of my SS reps. It certainly didn't look as good as the watches in By-Tor's incredible photos... In a way, I have a reverse view to yours with regards rep/gen purchasses. I'll go into an AD, try on the gen, and if I like it, I'll buy a rep. As yet, I've never felt let down by the rep compared to the gen in terms of satisfaction with the product as a comparison to the gen, although, I have been let down by the feeling of two gens I tried on (the Submariner and Explorer II). As a result, I bought my Sub rep (which I'm now selling, and simply don't enjoy wearing) and equally, simply wouldn't buy a rep of the Explorer II, simply because I don't think I'd actually want to wear it...

So many different opinions and perspectives as to who likes what and why they like it, this place is sure never to get dull

[TeeJay]

i did thake my choice and bought a 15000$ EWA and a 3500$ breitling emergency ohh did i forget the iwc big pilot for 10k$ sold but missed.reps sucks yeah they are fun but in the end its a fake nothing more and almost all reps have stupid flaws that will agrevate you each time you look at the watch..

nothing beats a gen sorry.

In terms of physical perfection, I agree. That said, as I mentioned with coke vs generic, sometimes the differences can make the rep nice in its own right

[JuniorNA]

I dont agree with Dani here with his short statement, I dont think reps suck, and I also think everyone is entitled to their own opinion. If you feel that 15,000 is worth it then by all means, enjoy the watch, and enjoy the "you get what you pay for" aspect of it. I'm sure it will be perfect in every way. For me, and to rehash robbies statement on whether the small details matter...IMHO, the fine details don't matter for me. If i know that externally, a rep will look just as good as a gen, including the 5% flaws, then I will be happy to wear that rep. Everyone is different, and everyone leads different lives, I know the way I am, and the way I work....I have been banging my steelfish around like crazy. Every 10 minutes this watch is taking a heavy hit from computers, storage systems, server shelves...etc. If this were a GEN, i would have taken it off, and 4k would be sitting in my drawer because I'd never have a chance of wearing it, hence, no need for the watch and I dont want that. Sure you could say I need to be more careful, or I need to acknowledge the fact that I have a timepiece on my wrist, but that doesnt mean equipment will listen to me as it falls, or moves, or as others are helping me build a rack of 10 servers and need to move the server 10 inches. They will not tell me "Hey jr., I know you have an expensive watch, heads up" LOL. That would just be weird if i told them to give me a heads up in the future. Anyway, for me, and ONLY for me, I think buying the REP is fine, I agree that you do get what you pay for, and in my case...I'm getting what I paid for, because I'm paying 300 instead of 100 on a crappy rep. I'm getting a better degree of crappy rep in a sense. I'm getting a higher end replica, that is a term that should never be said, but they do exist. There are levels of crappyness, from canal st. crap, to watchsir, to a higher end like andrew and pam111. But the point remains the same, i'm getting what I pay for, and I'm happy to do it, i'm getting a 95 to 98% accurate replica ,that no one will question and I will enjoy wearing. The people I encounter in my life will not question its authenticity because where I work and live, watches are purchased, discussed once and never discussed again, its not a volatile area where watches are discussed and mentioned all the time, I dont interact with very rich individuals who are familiar with expensive timepieces, and I dont work in a watch store..etc. Also to share another point, I certainly can afford the GEN's of the REPS that i wear, I just choose not to. I like so many different pieces out there, that I'd be in the hole so much if I went out and purchased only a few of the Gen's I love....so for me, purchasing the rep saves me money, and also gives me the pleasure of enjoying the timepiece, until I get sick of it and give it away, or put it in a box. I wouldnt want the feeling of losing 5k because i'm sick of a watch and dont want to wear it anymore, and i'd end up selling it for much less. I think because my taste changes so much with watches, REPS are the best fit for me, flaws and all.

[palidin]

What of the rumors that rep watch sales fuel/finance the Taliban and their murderous, religious supremacist operations?

Edited January 19, 2009 by palidin

[archibald]

What of the rumors that rep watch sales fuel/finance the Taliban and their murderous, religious supremacist operations?

All true. The best way to choke off the evildoer's money is to fill your SUV with Premium Unleaded.

Re: 10k steel watches w/ ETA movements. We all know how the luxury goods market works. I love it when guys like Biver say they're shocked that their products are getting knocked off. They know as well as we do that as long as their business model, low manufacturing costs and high marketing costs, is in place the chinese can and will produce very similarly manufactured copies while the swiss do 99.9% of the marketing for them.

[By-Tor]

I seriously wonder people who say that "reps are crap compared to gens". That might be true when we're talking about high horology pieces like Breguet and Vacheron, but Rolex, TAG, Ebel, Omega, Breitling, etc. are all mass produced watches, and the reps are actually damn good and accurate. Especially those that have ETA & Valjoux 7750 gen counterparts. At least Rolex only uses the inhouse movements, and I can see why that's important for some... but most gen Breits, Omegas, TAGs... very good and solid automatic watches, but if we're honest they're nothing that special mechanically.

If someone says the reps of these watches are crap and "full of flaws", I think the person has lost his perspective. They're amazingly accurate and close to the gen "feel" in every possible way. Look at reps like Ebel Discovery for Christ's sakes... what "flaws" you're talking about? Or the new BCE... those possible flaws are so ridiculously small... and they're still rather obscure models... I mean, who could possibly be geek enough to give a crap?

Maybe I'm just not WIS enough... but it doesn't really make a lot of difference to me whether I'm wearing my gen or rep Rolex. They feel and look 99% the same. GMT Master II is a bit different for me, because I like the mechanics of 3185. It's a great movement that reps can never duplicate properly. But modern Subs, Sea Dwellers, etc. I'd never invest $5k on one.

[jmarin.72]

I seriously wonder people who say that "reps are crap compared to gens". That might be true when we're talking about high horology pieces like Breguet and Vacheron, but Rolex, TAG, Ebel, Omega, Breitling, etc. are all mass produced watches, and the reps are actually damn good and accurate. Especially those that have ETA & Valjoux 7750 gen counterparts. At least Rolex only uses the inhouse movements, and I can see why that's important for some... but most gen Breits, Omegas, TAGs... very good and solid automatic watches, but if we're honest they're nothing that special mechanically.

If someone says the reps of these watches are crap and "full of flaws", I think the person has lost his perspective. They're amazingly accurate and close to the gen "feel" in every possible way. Look at reps like Ebel Discovery for Christ's sakes... what "flaws" you're talking about? Or the new BCE... those possible flaws are so ridiculously small... and they're still rather obscure models... I mean, who could possibly be geek enough to give a crap?

Maybe I'm just not WIS enough... but it doesn't really make a lot of difference to me whether I'm wearing my gen or rep Rolex. They feel and look 99% the same. GMT Master II is a bit different for me, because I like the mechanics of 3185. It's a great movement that reps can never duplicate properly. But modern Subs, Sea Dwellers, etc. I'd never invest $5k on one.

I couldn't have said it better BT...

[jmarin.72]

I seriously wonder people who say that "reps are crap compared to gens". That might be true when we're talking about high horology pieces like Breguet and Vacheron, but Rolex, TAG, Ebel, Omega, Breitling, etc. are all mass produced watches, and the reps are actually damn good and accurate. Especially those that have ETA & Valjoux 7750 gen counterparts. At least Rolex only uses the inhouse movements, and I can see why that's important for some... but most gen Breits, Omegas, TAGs... very good and solid automatic watches, but if we're honest they're nothing that special mechanically.

If someone says the reps of these watches are crap and "full of flaws", I think the person has lost his perspective. They're amazingly accurate and close to the gen "feel" in every possible way. Look at reps like Ebel Discovery for Christ's sakes... what "flaws" you're talking about? Or the new BCE... those possible flaws are so ridiculously small... and they're still rather obscure models... I mean, who could possibly be geek enough to give a crap?

Maybe I'm just not WIS enough... but it doesn't really make a lot of difference to me whether I'm wearing my gen or rep Rolex. They feel and look 99% the same. GMT Master II is a bit different for me, because I like the mechanics of 3185. It's a great movement that reps can never duplicate properly. But modern Subs, Sea Dwellers, etc. I'd never invest $5k on one.

I couldn't have said it better BT...

I would like to post a personal experience regarding the rep vs gen thing.

I had to pay 80 euros for a crown problem on a gen TAG CARRERA CHRONO although it was within warranty time

(8 months old in a 2 year warranty limit)just because the authorized service wouldn't cover any crown damage issues

only mechanical damage...cost of the watch nearly 3000euros.

Since then i had 3 reps (total worth of 900 $)with the same problem sent to my CN dealer,all of which were repaired free of

cost and shipped back to me on behalf of my dealer's expenses (total shipping cost of 75 $).

Could some one explain to me why should i waist 3000 euros or more on a gen and not get the proper customer friendly service i should get

for a purchase at this cost?And on the other hand i get a more than customer friendly service from an unknown CN person-dealer,all for free...

Beats me...

Thanks for listening guys.

[fakemaster]

Fascinating thread.