Craytonic Posted July 27, 2006 Report Share Posted July 27, 2006 No....it was more one sided than you want to imply.......I got bashed for telling it like it is......NOTHING I posted was untrue......ask any dealer....( other than Paul ).......I already have.......and believe me there was no disagreement. It isn't what you are saying 85% of the time, it is how you say it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TTK Posted July 27, 2006 Report Share Posted July 27, 2006 Oh I see.....so it has to be sugar coated....eh...! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craytonic Posted July 27, 2006 Report Share Posted July 27, 2006 Did I say that? I think not. It doesn't have to be sugar coated... but there is no need to put huge, sharp spikes on it either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fletch512 Posted July 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 27, 2006 Neil: You know full well that I, and many other people, attempted to rationally discuss your desire to hike up the prices on RWI. Let's not pretend that didn't already happen. If you instead prefer to sit behind your computer and call people stupid, then troll away. I'm not taking the bait. I just thought some people would find the discussion on RWI illuminating. Anyways, I'm going home for the day, so feel free to call me stupid as many more times as your heart desires. It's really not as bothersome as you seem to think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TTK Posted July 27, 2006 Report Share Posted July 27, 2006 (edited) So ...where are the huge sharp spikes in this my initial statement.....! The other aspect to all of this is that dealers like Josh / Trusty / Narikaa / EL.... etc etc who have established great reputations....for quality and service.......have to absorb the cost of all of this....including Customs losses.....theft from carriers...etc etc....... you can't give the great service that members get here and on the other boards.....for free.....it has to be paid for somehow......prices WILL rise to cover the cost......it's not fair on either the dealers or the members ....but somebody has to foot the bill........if you guys want 'perfect' reps and a TGA ( Total Guarantee Agreement ).....you have to pay for it........I for one will be revising my pricing structure after I clear out my existing stock......and I have spoken now to almost all the dealers......and the consensus is that they all feel the same way......! your desire to hike up the prices on RWI Where did I express a DESIRE to hike up prices......was I ALONE in that sentiment......did NO other dealer concur with my statement....? Edited July 27, 2006 by TTK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve G Posted July 27, 2006 Report Share Posted July 27, 2006 It's really quite simple. Dealers have the right to raise the price of their merchandise and we have the right not to buy it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andreww Posted July 27, 2006 Report Share Posted July 27, 2006 (edited) TTK I love your posts my friend, when you get on a roll it truly makes my day. These guys may cry like little girls about it but almost 20 pages of posts in little over a day shows me that these same whiners are interested in what you have to say. or Maybe maybe these guys are just trying to match wits with the master! Keep it up, if nothing else i'm entertained. Edited April 12, 2007 by andreww Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craytonic Posted July 27, 2006 Report Share Posted July 27, 2006 1) I referred to all of what you said on these boards, not the 1st paragraph of the 1st post of that thread (yes I know you didn't start the thread, etc, etc). If I said otherwise, please show me. (the post was: "It isn't what you are saying 85% of the time, it is how you say it.") 2) There are more than enough examples in those 15 pages of what one could call "huge sharp spikes" to prove my 85% guesstimate. Things like: "I won't even dignify that with a response....except to say....stupidity....stupidity.....! " etc, etc, etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TTK Posted July 28, 2006 Report Share Posted July 28, 2006 Well.....excuse me for my perception.....if I see stupidity.....I remark upon it......some may not like it.....but that's because people have little idea of what a 'forum' is......in Greece and Rome.....the forum was where topical subjects were discussed....and believe me....if anyone demonstrated stupidity......the honourable senator or member would certainly shout about it with a little abuse thrown in.....if you BIG BOYS can't handle it.....perhaps a creche is more appropriate.....! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craytonic Posted July 28, 2006 Report Share Posted July 28, 2006 1) We aren't in a greek or roman forum. I would wager they would be incredibly confused by the whole "internet" thing. Also, this is B.C. not A.D. and people behave a little differently. Last time I checked. 2) Actually, the greeks typically didn't yell and shout "you are stupid, stupid, stupid." They demonstrated why in the nicest way possible, usually over wine, and still still managed to make the offender look like a complete idiot (more than you can imagine) without uttering a harsh word. It is an artform, and the old dialogues are quite interesting. The insults from the best are always subtle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TTK Posted July 28, 2006 Report Share Posted July 28, 2006 @catatonic......! Thanks for your revisionist history lesson....( more than I can imagine ) ....I don't think so....and as for SHOUTING......I never shouted....nether did I say 'you are stupid, stupid, stupid'....but I will say you are wrong....and of course you that you are famous for the sarcasm and charming wit that you have shown on the boards......which of course in the 6 years Ive been on the forums....I've never shed a drop of subtle sarcasm in the nicest possible way......! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted July 28, 2006 Report Share Posted July 28, 2006 nether did I say 'you are stupid, stupid, stupid'.... I believe that was a Grisham quote (Rainmaker?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craytonic Posted July 28, 2006 Report Share Posted July 28, 2006 @catatonic......! Thanks for your revisionist history lesson....( more than I can imagine ) ....I don't think so....and as for SHOUTING......I never shouted....nether did I say 'you are stupid, stupid, stupid'....but I will say you are wrong....and of course you that you are famous for the sarcasm and charming wit that you have shown on the boards......which of course in the 6 years Ive been on the forums....I've never shed a drop of subtle sarcasm in the nicest possible way......! Who started the revisionist history lessons here? Ah the smartass, belittling comments. Make fun of my name, call me wrong, etc. Your favorite tactics! Ad hominum. no you didn't say "you are stupid, stupid, stupid" but it is a decent paraphrase of "I won't even dignify that with a response....except to say....stupidity....stupidity.....! " close enough I think I think there are more than a few that would say "[censored]" before they said "charming wit and sarcasm"... but we have 10 pages of people saying that at RWI already so I won't belittle the point. I digress, my point is that no matter how true or important your message may be, it gets lost in the way you tell it. (Yes, I know you will say I am too stupid to follow you. Not true, I always am disgusted to have to read through all the name-calling, etc to get to the one sentence that is worth reading). I will leave it at for now as I have to leave my computer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TTK Posted July 28, 2006 Report Share Posted July 28, 2006 Ad hominum......Wooo.....a Googleism....! Paraphrase.....God bless reader's digest and the word of the day....! @Catatonic...if the shoe fits....wear it.......I've grown weary of your blandness......there's an end to it.....! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
premiumdesigners Posted July 28, 2006 Report Share Posted July 28, 2006 pure entertainment!! i love it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caleb Posted July 28, 2006 Report Share Posted July 28, 2006 I am not the oldest member of this (or the other forum) and not the newest. I have purchased 6 reps from various dealers (including TTK) to date and am happy with each of them. What I don't understand in this thread (or the other one at RWI) is what the big fuss is all about. If the dealers want to raise the prices, is that not their option? They do not answer to us and do not look to us to pay their bills. Pricing is and always will be determined by the seller based on their own unique situations - some may offer lower costs than others for exactly the same product, but how is that different than anything else in the world. Today you can buy the same kinds of products at different stores for different prices. We don't help the store owners set their prices - we do, however, get to decide if we want to purchase at that store FOR THAT PRICE! I read in a post recently about the great watch (gen) deals that can be had in Hong Kong. That is a good thing. I am not certain, however, that I would receive the same level of customer service for that gen watch if there was a problem with it than if I purchased it at the Tourneau istore n South Coast Plaza. In my company, I purchase a lot of products and services (mostly computer-related) and I am constantly getting calls for people that want to bid on our contracts. Yet, I tell them the same thing each time - no thanks - we are happy with our current suppliers. "Don't you want to save money?" they ask. No, not at the expense of relationships and customer service. When we decide to purchase a watch (like with any other purchase), are we not making a value exchange where we are exchanging currency for the particular watch we want, be it rep or otherwise? Is tihs not how we buy other things? If we want it now, we usually have to pay more than if we waited until demand dies down or there is a sale. I GUESS I AM NOT SURE WHY ANYONE WOULD COMPLAIN ABOUT A POTENTIAL PRICE INCREASE AS A PERSON WOULD STILL NEED TO MAKE A VALUE DECISION ON WHICH WATCH TO PURCHASE AND/OR HOW MANY. Besides, you can only wear one at a time. For me, it is quality over quantity. I don't even care too much how close to the gen it is (although that is a plus). if I like the watch and it works (this is important), then I have received the value that I was expecting when I clicked that Paypal button. While I am a relative newcomer, it seems to me that some of those who have been around longer than I have may have forgotten the admonition to "select a dealer, then select a watch". People shop many ways - some for price and others for convenience or customer service. I SAY - GIVE ME GREAT REPS AT A REASONABLE PRICE WITH PROMPT DELIVERY. And, I am all for our dealers making however much money they need or desire to make as I want them to prosper so more and better reps will be forthcoming to us. Sorry for the long post... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craytonic Posted July 28, 2006 Report Share Posted July 28, 2006 I refuse to stoop to the level of making fun of your name or attacking you personally because these boards needs less of that, thus there really is not much left for me to say in response to your comments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TTK Posted July 28, 2006 Report Share Posted July 28, 2006 (edited) Let me enlarge on some of your comments.....! 1. Make fun of my name......well perhaps you should have been more circumspect in your choice. 2. Call me wrong.......I didn't call YOU wrong.....altho' the midwife may have thought it.....I said you were wrong in attributing certain 'comments' to me.....! 3. I think there are more than a few that would say "[censored]" before they said "charming wit and sarcasm".....and I would agree with them....I'm definitely an '[censored]' for bothering with you.....! 4. but we have 10 pages of people saying that at RWI already so I won't belittle the point....WRONG AGAIN....we don't have 10 pages of people saying that ....we have over 10 pages of people discussing the topic....but last I looked......I didn't see 10 pages of people saying I'm an [censored]....! 5. I digress, my point is that no matter how true or important your message may be, it gets lost in the way you tell it. ....I don't thnk my message has been lost in translation.....I think EVERONE understands what I was saying.....agreeing with it....NO....but definitely not lost in the way that I said it...WRONG again....! 6. I always am disgusted to have to read through all the name-calling, etc to get to the one sentence that is worth reading......yep.....it's extremely hard to find one sentence in any of your posts that is worth reading......I'm in agreement. BTW....it's Ad hominem.......! Edited July 28, 2006 by TTK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkerouac Posted July 28, 2006 Report Share Posted July 28, 2006 We all want our dealers to treat us fairly, and they want to be treated fairly. There is a tremendous amount of trust involved in these somewhat complex, long distance transactions. A few years ago, before the Internet, payment services such as Paypal, and boards such as this, this business would not even have existed. The boards have been extremely successful, bringing hundreds if not thousands of new customers to the fold. In some cases these are uneducated customers, in other cases they may become just educated enough to think they know what they are talking about, and in a few cases they really, really know what they are talking about. It is all too easy for scam buyers to work the system. The boards are primarily about protecting the buyers, not the sellers, or else it would look like a flea market rather than the well ordered system that exists. Sellers have to make a profit, otherwise they won't be here. In my case, I don't like to pay the highest price, which is why I have never purchased from certain well-regarded dealers. But I also am cautious about buying from the lowest priced dealers as well. In my earlier days almost every purchase was from a different dealer. I wanted to try out as many as I could. Now I've settled in with one or two. I hope they feel that I will treat them fairly, and I hope they respect and appreciate my value as a repeat customer. Pricing will change as the value fo the dollar fluctuates and other costs of doing business rise, and sometimes drop. I have nothing but the best wishes for Neil and the other dealers, and that they can continue to do business in a cost effective (for us) yet profitable (for them) way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alextor Posted July 28, 2006 Report Share Posted July 28, 2006 Hello gentlemen... After reading the posts and all the two-way retorts, I lost track of the main theme...It says "Interesting discussion about Rep pricing"... so I'll add to the mix my viewpoint on the issue: As 'irregular' customers (we are not buying at Bloomingdale's...) we have make a decision on the inherent risks and benefits of this hobby. In the 'outside' internet jungle we are ill-equipped to survive without being scammed by dealers that sell Class A1, A2, swiss made crapola. For me it might have been a steep and pricey learning curve, fortunately I found this forum where not only I find educational information but also reputable dealers with great replicas (better than the [censored] class A that they are selling for 1000 bucks) for a fraction of the price and formidable customer service... One of the problems (created by noobs I think) is bringing their Wal Mart's customer service mentality along with their ignorance -not stupidity for now- (and the unending threads on topics that are pinned). Now, once they were educated (either by fellow members or by dealers) on quality, on what to expect, on shipping policies etc etc etc...there is no recourse. As they continue with the string of moronic comments, the Walmart total satisfaction and the unreasonable expectations 'I want a perfect perfect perfect replica'...they can rightfully be called 'frikking idiots' or ...[censored]ing idiots...whichever flavor you fancy. On scammers, little can be said that has not been said before. We all agree, they should be banned from forums like RWG...but is not my ultimate call, I'd leave it to the admin and moderators to propose some sort of 'code to abide by...or else.' On our dealers...reviews speak for themselves...but there is one interesting fact that reveals their willingness to do business and honesty: I have noticed a measure of healthy competition among them...they bring better and better products (with better and better prices)...and they pass savings onto us...this is a benefit of a free market in an open environment!...but it also applies to the dealers in this forum!!! (go outside and taste the waterssss....you'll end up with diahrrea of the wallet in a heartbeat) In here, there is no price gauging or manipulation (again, go outside...) That is remarkable. On name calling and insults...I simply don't give a [censored]! -unless ladies present...in which case I rather give a [censored] but literally- (I played rugby for years...there is nothing I haven't heard before...SO....pasta la vista my cherished [censored]ers!!!! ) Peace out Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archibald Posted July 28, 2006 Report Share Posted July 28, 2006 You guys are being pretty post-modern today--a thread about a thread about a thread. Personally, I've had one problem with one dealer--out of well over 10 grand's worth of transactions, 95% of which were completely unremarkable which is how they should be. That success rate is 100% attributable of the rep forums, which were started so that rep collectors could discuss reps...and rep dealers. Anyone who sells watches on these forums should be prepared to have their wares--and their business practices--scrutinized. That system is what makes the majority of transactions go smoothly. On the other hand, anyone who buys watches here should be prepared to have their business practices discussed by dealers. If the dealers find their new subforum useful, groovy. I don't see how anyone can have a problem with it. Pricing: I don't know about you guys, but as soon as i saw four dealer-started threads in 24 hrs. abut customs issues, my first thought was "Translation: about $15 a watch..." Crackdowns always suck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonystyle Posted July 28, 2006 Report Share Posted July 28, 2006 Respect goes both ways, you need a good seller for sure, but the seller also needs a good honest buyer. I bought $275 Sub, 1st watch was halted, the second watch turned out to be the wrong version so I spent $20 on postage and packaging to send it back, now the dealer cant really find me another copy. So I said keep $80 for yourself to cover your time and dont send me any watch...decent thing to do, not really out of the ordinary. Do most buyers here really screw over dealers that much, maybe its the rep buyers mentality in general, but with 5 years ++ on other boards I never read about dealers complaining about how shitty their clients are, etc... ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craytonic Posted July 28, 2006 Report Share Posted July 28, 2006 Let me enlarge on some of your comments.....! 1. Make fun of my name......well perhaps you should have been more circumspect in your choice. 2. Call me wrong.......I didn't call YOU wrong.....altho' the midwife may have thought it.....I said you were wrong in attributing certain 'comments' to me.....! 3. I think there are more than a few that would say "[censored]" before they said "charming wit and sarcasm".....and I would agree with them....I'm definitely an '[censored]' for bothering with you.....! 4. but we have 10 pages of people saying that at RWI already so I won't belittle the point....WRONG AGAIN....we don't have 10 pages of people saying that ....we have over 10 pages of people discussing the topic....but last I looked......I didn't see 10 pages of people saying I'm an [censored]....! 5. I digress, my point is that no matter how true or important your message may be, it gets lost in the way you tell it. ....I don't thnk my message has been lost in translation.....I think EVERONE understands what I was saying.....agreeing with it....NO....but definitely not lost in the way that I said it...WRONG again....! 6. I always am disgusted to have to read through all the name-calling, etc to get to the one sentence that is worth reading......yep.....it's extremely hard to find one sentence in any of your posts that is worth reading......I'm in agreement. BTW....it's Ad hominem.......! Once a person has read one of your posts, he (or she) has read them all. As I said earlier, I refuse to stoop to your level. You are no longer making an argument, you are just attacking me personally. If you come up with an argument, I will address it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fletch512 Posted July 28, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 28, 2006 (edited) I have to hand it to you Neil, your ability to childishly insult people is formidable. I was hoping to be done with all this, but I just don't like bullies, so I need to put you in your place. Enough of the revisionist history, let's deal with the facts. Fact #1) Dealers can charge whatever they wish. It would be ludicrous for me or anyone else to tell a merchant what they can or cannot charge for their goods. It's their own business, plain and simple. Fun Neil Quote #1) "I'm not in isolation in this point of view.....believe me...there's a storm gathering.....!" Fact #2) Neil did not just say he was raising his prices. Rather, he said that he and the other dealers were getting together to raise prices as a group. However, some people felt that the reasons he gave for the need to band together and collectively raise prices were suspect. Fun Neil Quote #2) "So it's time for you guys to fasten your seatbelts and hang on....it's gonna be a rough ride........and the ticket prices ARE going to rise......!" Fact #3) In his first post over at the RWI thread, Neil claimed that prices need to go up because "watches coming back with crowns screwed up with pliers.....screws chewed to hell.....watches that have been sent back as not working.....only for my watchsmith to tell me there is nothing wrong with it.....not to mention the watches I've replaced and never received the originals back......the list is endless..!" It's hard to believe that dealers are swallowing the cost of watches intentionally damaged by the buyer. If they are doing that, perhaps it is wiser to change such policies rather than expecting other customers to shoulder the bill. Later on, in page 5 of the thread, Neil changes his story and concedes that scammers are "only a small percentage of the problem." Fun Neil Quote #3) "if you don't believe that buying a replica which has between 95-99% of the original isn't worth 10% of the price....you better buy braces and a belt to hold up your trousers.....'cos yer ass is gonna get spanked soon.....the 'glory' days are coming to an end......make hay while the sun shines.....you guys have had it good for a long time......!" At 10% of the price, can you say hello to a $500 sub? Fact #4) The other reasons Neil gave for raising prices in the first page of his post is that he has to absorb customs losses and theft from carriers. Others in the thread pointed out that this has always been a fact of life, so why raise prices now? Why form a cartel with the other dealers to raise prices? Moreover, these losses amount to a miniscule fraction of transactions. Several people in the original thread pointed out that they bought dozens of watches and/or spent thousands of dollars, yet never had customs confiscate a watch or the carrier steal it. Certainly if EMS wanted to steal something, they could find goods more profitable than fake watches from China. Do a search on your favorite website for stories about customs confiscations. You will find almost none. Yet people post on a daily basis about how quickly and securely they received their merchandise. Fun Neil Quote #4) "You got one thing right......WE dealers are doing you a favour...there are things going on in the background that you guys are not aware of.....but believe me when I say we ARE doing you a favour......it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that you MIGHT just see most of your favoured dealers here disappear" If you think Neil's not making a healthy profit, take this into consideration: There are something like 1500 members of RWI. RWG claims something like 8000. And then you have TRC, RWG2, WT, who knows what else. All serviced by roughly the same 6 or so major dealers. Now imagine each member buying two watches on average, some buy many, some buy none at all. I'd imagine the average may be higher, but I'm being conservative. AT RWI alone, that's 3000 watches, or 500 per major dealer, give or take a bit. And let's say the average profit per watch is $50 (that may be a conservative estimate, remember the IWC Jones which has been sold anywhere from $220 to $108 for the same decorated chinese movement). That's $25000 profit per dealer. Expand that out to the rest of the watch trading sites, and even if you take into account same members at different sites, that's still adds up to a lot of money. So that's how it all started. Since then, Neil has been trying to backpaddle and make it sound like he was the victim. Truth is, he made some outrageous claims and then compounded it by being rude to people who raised valid points. Sure, raise prices if you need to, but if price is actually dictated by overhead, as you claim, why the need to form a cartel? All of you here have been enjoying reasonable prices for your watches because of competition and market forces. Take that away, and you might as well go back to the $1000 Grade A Swiss Rolex Replicas of the old days. Do not let Neil delude you, that's what the discussion was really about. Of course, once Neil started making personal attacks and changing his story, the discussion got sidetracked, just like he's doing here. Edited July 28, 2006 by fletch512 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fahfahfooey Posted July 28, 2006 Report Share Posted July 28, 2006 @ Alextor You make some great and valid points. It's funny because typically a customer/client never wants to be made to feel like his vendor is doing him a favor during the course of a transaction. The deal should be conducted as if it were mtually beneficial with the comensurate respect forthcoming from both parties involved. This is not a typical transaction, though. We are buying contraban in an environment where, as you point out, the predators are many. Also, as TTK put it, the peripheral matters that go into sourcing the pieces we have come to crave are inumerable. So in a way, when I buy replicas from the dealers in this community, I feel as if they actually are doing me a favor. I love watches, rep and gen, and there is no way I could have safely navigated these waters the way I have without this forum, its members and its dealers. p.s. I've only dealt with TTK once. The transaction was as smooth as silk. The watch arrived in a reasonable amount of time, packed securely and was exactly as described. It was so nice and clean that it left me with the impression that it was handpicked from the masses of supposedly identical counterparts. I would definately buy from him again. He knows his business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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