Interesting Discussion About Rep Pricing

[Steve G]

I'm really amazed. I've been bouncing between here and the other boards reading this topic. First I'm quite shocked to learn that this behavior is so rampant. Buyers scamming dealers. Quote the irony. I mean most of us who found this site did so because we the buyers were afraid of being scammed by some dealer.

I mean Josh getting screwed, EL having his paypal suspended over five freaking dollars, etc. Silly [censored] if you ask me. But I suppose it goes hand and hand with some of the members being attracted to this fourm. Lately a lot of complaint postings. "Did you Know the 187 is extremely flawed?" "Is the case size of the new PO really 45mm?" I mean sure it makes for an interesting read when I have nothing else to do, but these are REPS!.

You see for $200-$300 you get in my opinon a pretty decent quality watch certainly on par with a citzen or such. I'm not expecting AD quality, I can live with the flaws that's why I buy it. Now it's nice to see the eagle eyes who know their [censored], hell I've learned a lot in six months here. But I've turned my brother and my father onto this hobby and combined we're good for around 30 watches, not to shabby for dealer's I've dealth with in half a year.

Maybe the solution, and it's been brought up before, is a paid membership; with active banishment should these things occur with members. Just a thought.

I don't know Andrew and Josh personally and they don't know me, but I kind of feel like I do. They have made every transaction a pleasure and Andrew especially has gone above and beyond at times, with always my appreciation and praise. In return for that kind of service more business, a lot more. (I just placed a $600 order with Josh yesterday)Anyone I know that wants to play this game...I say let me point you to the right place and person. Word of mouth priceless. And dealing with someone 6000 miles away and making it painless more priceless. [censored] I can't even go to my local department store and get that 99% of time.

It just sucks to see this happening. It's always the few who screw it up for the majority. Most of the people here are intelligent, respectful and helpful to everyone. It just kills me that someone would tarnish their rep over a rep

Edited July 28, 2006 by Steve G

[Craytonic]

Cheers to fletch for a good post. I hope neil doesn't make fun of your name as well, I really like that movie.

[Steve G]

Cheers to fletch for a good post. I hope neil doesn't make fun of your name as well, I really like that movie.

Was a good post Fletch, well done I however, didn't care for the movie :yucky:

But Fletch is on to something...money is the motivator and there is profit. My brother often wonder what is it really $50 per watch $100? Not to mention the US dollar conversion factor. Don't get me wrong they have a right ot make a profit. But I agree no favor being done...it's all about green disease.

[Alextor]

Cheers to fletch for a good post.

...and the truth, as always, dwells in between...

[censored]! can we just all get along?

[Richard Tracy]

I personally don't care if a dealer raises his price,..

I see what we get compared to the outside world as a bargain that has

room to allow a dealer to figure out ways to protect himself.

Better that, than have them pack their bags and leave all of us

behind, holding our magnifying glasses and calipers...

I think some of us would be less against paying the piper, whatever that price may be,

if they would learn to trade their unwanted watches and use the funds for additional

purchases.

Every system needs a recycling area ...

[Craytonic]

I really doubt they all pack their bags and leave; I doubt those of us who have relations with the better dealers will ever have problems or have to worry with service plans and silver, platinum, or gold crap.

[fahfahfooey]

Hmmmm, I've always found the combination of cynicism and naivete to be especially irritating. Of course money is a motivator, but I find it impossible to believe that it is the motivator for many of our dealers who themselves happen to be avid hobbyists. There are some here for which this seems to be a primary source of income, but I would not jump to too many conclusions about their number or their margins.

And as for the $25K number? Even if it is realistic, which I am not persuaded that it necessarily is, isn't out of whack for all the work and risk put into producing inventory for our hobby. What a dealer makes is really nobody else's business anyway. There is no "full disclosure" principle at play here, just pretty basic market dynamics. If dealers get screwed repeatedly, everyone pays more. It happens in virtually every business. It's just that we normally don't get a glimpse of the details behind the curtain. Just my .02 ...

[robertk]

regarding that $25K figure. is that a day? a week? a month? a year?

When i read it, (thinking I'm getting a financial education???) it read like a year.

That's a lot if your a chinese laborer.

of course, if it's a day, then I'm sure there wearing Gens.

[Guest TTK]

@flatch(ulence)....and you're just the boy to put me in my place...what am I thinking......I must be crazy to joust with you....!

Once again a whole load of dribble from you......and glaring inconsistencies in everything you say.....!

Fact #1) Dealers can charge whatever they wish. It would be ludicrous for me or anyone else to tell a merchant what they can or cannot charge for their goods. It's their own business, plain and simple.

The only sense you've made.....but sadly.....offset by the contribution you've made to global warming by opening your mouth....!

Fun Neil Quote #1) "I'm not in isolation in this point of view.....believe me...there's a storm gathering.....!"

How prophetic was I..?......there is a storm spreading right across 3x boards.......and RWI has never seen a flurry of posting like it........simply because I said 'prices WILL rise'......wow ...the power of the spoken word.....and yet nobody has seen fit to split your posts in any of the boards.......wot power.....eh..?

Fact #2) Neil did not just say he was raising his prices. Rather, he said that he and the other dealers were getting together to raise prices as a group. However, some people felt that the reasons he gave for the need to band together and collectively raise prices were suspect.

A LIE.....I said the following:."I for one will be revising my pricing structure after I clear out my existing stock......and I have spoken now to almost all the dealers......and the consensus is that they all feel the same way......NOWHERE did I say that I was getting together with other dealers were going to raise their prices.....FEELING THE SAME and carrying it out are two different animals.....!

Fun Neil Quote #2) "So it's time for you guys to fasten your seatbelts and hang on....it's gonna be a rough ride........and the ticket prices ARE going to rise......!"

Well.....I was being prophetic again......it's been a rough ride...for you at least......and my sentiment with regard to that statement hasn't changed......it is going to be rough.....we're going to see tighter and tighter controls over fake goods...which WILL lead to higher prices.....Bangkok customs haven't bought 3 x-ray machines so they can just look under a bint's jumper.....!

Fact #3) In his first post over at the RWI thread, Neil claimed that prices need to go up because "watches coming back with crowns screwed up with pliers.....screws chewed to hell.....watches that have been sent back as not working.....only for my watchsmith to tell me there is nothing wrong with it.....not to mention the watches I've replaced and never received the originals back......the list is endless..!" It's hard to believe that dealers are swallowing the cost of watches intentionally damaged by the buyer. If they are doing that, perhaps it is wiser to change such policies rather than expecting other customers to shoulder the bill. Later on, in page 5 of the thread, Neil changes his story and concedes that scammers are "only a small percentage of the problem."

Mea culpa....I'm the guilty one....the dirty lown down dog that said prices will need to go up.....because of all the scammers etc etc......what was I thinking.....I really meant that the prices were going to go down for all those reasons......I also qualified it by saying the list is endless.....scammers and paypal chargebacks and bloody nuisance customers arent the only things on that list......you know like Customs and well.....you all know....!

Fun Neil Quote #3) "if you don't believe that buying a replica which has between 95-99% of the original isn't worth 10% of the price....you better buy braces and a belt to hold up your trousers.....'cos yer ass is gonna get spanked soon.....the 'glory' days are coming to an end......make hay while the sun shines.....you guys have had it good for a long time......!" At 10% of the price, can you say hello to a $500 sub?

Personally I believe that I should be charging 50% of the price of a genuine....for listening to damn fools like you....( you can relax....I've moved youu from stupid to merely 'foolish' ).....as for the glory days.....don't take my word for it...ask the other dealers......they know what's going down.....ask other members who've been here significantly longer than you have......they've seen the glory days.....and they will come to an end.....Dubya is intent on that.....!

As for 10% of the price.....go check out the web......thousands out there are paying waaay more than that for cheap tat.....if you can't say 'hello to 10% for a superb almost identical rep".....with a TGA....I can't help it if you're poor......maybe you should go back to collecting glass bottles or tin cans on teh street......!

he other reasons Neil gave for raising prices in the first page of his post is that he has to absorb customs losses and theft from carriers. Others in the thread pointed out that this has always been a fact of life, so why raise prices now?

...Of course it's always been a fact....but need i remind that the only thing in the known universe that is 'constant'....is change........times change....so do situations.....there are more and more instances now......and higher expectations from ignorant buyers......!

Several people in the original thread pointed out that they bought dozens of watches and/or spent thousands of dollars, yet never had customs confiscate a watch or the carrier steal it. Certainly if EMS wanted to steal something, they could find goods more profitable than fake watches from China. Do a search on your favorite website for stories about customs confiscations. You will find almost none. Yet people post on a daily basis about how quickly and securely they received their merchandise.

Of course SEVERAL people posted that......how many have you seen that posted the opposite.....as for your flawed logic about what people steal...I won't even go there....( let's move you back to the stupidity shelf ).....suffice to say ....I wasn't the ONLY dealer blowing that trumpet.....!

un Neil Quote #4) "You got one thing right......WE dealers are doing you a favour...there are things going on in the background that you guys are not aware of.....but believe me when I say we ARE doing you a favour......it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that you MIGHT just see most of your favoured dealers here disappear"

We dealers are doing you a favour......I am YOUR personal shopper......YOU rely on ME and others to find YOU the goods that YOU cannot legally buy in YOUR country...not only that...but given the opportunity to come HERE.....you CANNOT find them....go read the myriad of posts from members who've been to Shenzen / Guangzhou / B'Kok and could NOT find the best reps.........YOU rely on me to secure the BEST example for you......at the BEST price......not only that but YOU want me to give YOU a cast iron guarantee for the item that YOUR heart desires......for way LESS than is being charged elsewhere on the net for items of dubious quality......YOU want me to ensure that the ILLEGAL item YOU wish to import into YOUR country doesn't get seized by customs.....and if it does....YOU want ME to make it good.....I have to absorb the cost of YOUR criminal activity.....for LESS than is being charged elsewhere.....!

And believe me.....it is NOT beyond the bounds of possibility that you MIGHT just see most of your favoured dealers here disappear....it's already been discussed.....you can take that to the bank....like it or not....!

If you think Neil's not making a healthy profit, take this into consideration:

There are something like 1500 members of RWI. RWG claims something like 8000. And then you have TRC, RWG2, WT, who knows what else. All serviced by roughly the same 6 or so major dealers. Now imagine each member buying two watches on average, some buy many, some buy none at all. I'd imagine the average may be higher, but I'm being conservative. AT RWI alone, that's 3000 watches, or 500 per major dealer, give or take a bit. And let's say the average profit per watch is $50 (that may be a conservative estimate, remember the IWC Jones which has been sold anywhere from $220 to $108 for the same decorated chinese movement). That's $25000 profit per dealer. Expand that out to the rest of the watch trading sites, and even if you take into account same members at different sites, that's still adds up to a lot of money.

Who determines what a healthy profit is......and as for your arithmetic ......it's incorrect.....go stand in the corner.......8000 members...more like 18,581 spread across the boards.......how many active......do you see posts from 1500+ TRC and WT....all boards with the same members ...different names........NO....you see posts from the same handful of members.......the usual suspects......your arithmetic stinks......but that's no surprise.....!

So that's how it all started. Since then, Neil has been trying to backpaddle and make it sound like he was the victim.

It's backpedal.......and I'm no victim......I never claimed to be a victim.....!

Truth is, he made some outrageous claims

Show me ONE outrageous claim.....and I'll send you the watch that your heart desires.....free of charge....!

why the need to form a cartel

Show me where I said a cartel was being formed....!

So....show me any of the above......if not...I'll not only call you stupid.....I'll call you a stupid liar.......!

Edited July 28, 2006 by TTK

[Pugwash]

And let's say the average profit per watch is $50 (that may be a conservative estimate, remember the IWC Jones which has been sold anywhere from $220 to $108 for the same decorated chinese movement).

That's an over-generous figure, fyi.

[nxuan]

That's an over-generous figure, fyi.

I do not think that the average is off. I can attest that cost of IWC Jones with decorated back is lower than $100 since I just picked up the watch from a local dealer at that price.

I am wearing it right now. Such a beautyful watch!

[Pugwash]

I do not think that the average is off. I can attest that cost of IWC Jones with decorated back is lower than $100 since I just picked up the watch from a local dealer at that price.

Great find, does that include delivery?

[nxuan]

Great find, does that include delivery?

Well, it is from a local dealer. So I pick it up directly from him. Nothing beats having a chance to inspect the watch before buying.

Considering that it was the price I paid, his cost is lower than that. And, for dealers who have the watch shipped directly out of China to customers, cost will be even lower.

[Quarks]

When we decide to purchase a watch (like with any other purchase), are we not making a value exchange where we are exchanging currency for the particular watch we want, be it rep or otherwise? Is tihs not how we buy other things? If we want it now, we usually have to pay more than if we waited until demand dies down or there is a sale.

I GUESS I AM NOT SURE WHY ANYONE WOULD COMPLAIN ABOUT A POTENTIAL PRICE INCREASE AS A PERSON WOULD STILL NEED TO MAKE A VALUE DECISION ON WHICH WATCH TO PURCHASE AND/OR HOW MANY.

Besides, you can only wear one at a time.

For me, it is quality over quantity. I don't even care too much how close to the gen it is (although that is a plus). if I like the watch and it works (this is important), then I have received the value that I was expecting when I clicked that Paypal button.

While I am a relative newcomer, it seems to me that some of those who have been around longer than I have may have forgotten the admonition to "select a dealer, then select a watch". People shop many ways - some for price and others for convenience or customer service.

I SAY - GIVE ME GREAT REPS AT A REASONABLE PRICE WITH PROMPT DELIVERY. And, I am all for our dealers making however much money they need or desire to make as I want them to prosper so more and better reps will be forthcoming to us.

Sorry for the long post...

Well said, Caleb. Well said. I couldn't have said it any better myself.

TTK vs blah, blah, blah... I think we have enough of that over at RWI, why bring the [censored] over and resume the whole drama here? There is no doubt Neil has some valid points which was brought up over at RWI, which some may not agree with (although many were more concerned on the WAY Neil puts them across, personally I could care less - it is not as if, this is the first time you have read how Neil deliver his posts)

If dealers want to raise the price, fine by me. Not a problem. It is our choice to make. To make the purchase or just fug it and move on. I have always stood by the dealers I have dealt with and the customer service I have received has been by a long stretch of what I have expected out of their generosity and trust. I fully agree with weeding out the troublemakers, those bloody bad seeds who has been taking advantage of the dealers' generosity - causing paypal problems, keeping extra goods, scamming movements out of the watches, those petty complains about scratches here and there, etc..... And what has happen to this board? It has almost turned into a bloody customer service complain centre over here everytime I log on. I am just sick of the people whinning like 8 year old girls about every-fecking-thing. Seriously.

P/s I am always [censored]in amazed by how members tries to scrutinise the amount of money our dealers make by selling these watches and then breaking down it to every penny the dealers makes over the service we get. Seriously. Get a bloody life. I just cant believe this [censored] really. This is a replica business. I am already thankful that our dealers go an extra mile to make sure our watches get delivered with all the customs [censored]... what more do you want? Some of you should just [censored] off, forget about reps and get genuines.

[V]

Something that has not been said, at least here at RWG - I haven't followed the RWI thread-I am not registered there.

Well .. if the problem is the confiscated watches from the customs why not start doing (the dealers) something that is already in the air but not in fact?

Ship the watch with the buyers risk!!! If it gets confiscated bad for them...

Provide them with proof of posting and that's it.

I don't understand that when you have an X problem you decide to go with the Y (completely irrelevant) solution.

The problem is the customs???? Then deal with the customs.

Trusty put the watches to plastic pianos.

You don't want to do this? Ship the watch with buyers risk.

That's it. As simple as that. No need of cartels or raising the prices.

[Craytonic]

Neil, I just want to say you have never, ever done me a "favor" and I never, ever want you to do a "favor" for me. Other dealers I respect? Yes. You? No

[Pugwash]

That's it. As simple as that. No need of cartels or raising the prices.

There are no cartels. The price raise was proposed to cover insurance.

I honestly believe that the buyer's risk (and transparent shipping costs) pricing will be an option.

A $90 watch, $20 shipping, proof of postage, you're on your own.

Or, $90 watch, $20 shipping, $30 insurance and you'll get a watch no matter how many attempts it takes.

This is how I see it.

[cwai02]

I do not think that the average is off. I can attest that cost of IWC Jones with decorated back is lower than $100 since I just picked up the watch from a local dealer at that price.

I am wearing it right now. Such a beautyful watch!

yup, I can confirm that the cost is below $100. I honestly don't feel bad when dealers lose money due to scammers, customs...btw, I rarely hear custom seized watches.

They make enough to cover the cost of risk. I ve done my job as an honest buyer. That's the dealers' jobs to figure out how to avoid scammers, custom and paypal issues.

[V]

There are no cartels. The price raise was proposed to cover insurance.

I honestly believe that the buyer's risk (and transparent shipping costs) pricing will be an option.

A $90 watch, $20 shipping, proof of postage, you're on your own.

Or, $90 watch, $20 shipping, $30 insurance and you'll get a watch no matter how many attempts it takes.

This is how I see it.

And that's quite fair I might say. To give the buyer the option of the insurance.

But maybe on the other hand they will say a full 140$ price including everything and in a couple of months the option will stop to exist (if you not clearely offer it as you explain in your post)

[Quarks]

yup, I can confirm that the cost is below $100. I honestly don't feel bad when dealers lose money due to scammers, customs...btw, I rarely hear custom seized watches.

They make enough to cover the cost of risk. I ve done my job as an honest buyer. That's the dealers' jobs to figure out how to avoid scammers, custom and paypal issues.

Of course you don't feel bad, you are not the one losing the money.

[Pugwash]

I honestly don't feel bad when dealers lose money due to scammers, customs...btw, I rarely hear custom seized watches.

You what? You don't care if dealers get scammed? Did you just say that or is it a typo?

[ubiquitous]

[Quarks]

They just want to pay for cheap watches, that's all. Nowadays, who really cares about dealers getting scammed? It is none of their business to care. It is all about prices baby... and of course the watch. What a community this has become.

[cwai02]

You what? You don't care if dealers get scammed? Did you just say that or is it a typo?

well, wrong choice of words.

What I mean is that it's not my responsibility to take care of dealer's issues like scammers or custom.

I am doing my job as an honest buyer and I think that's enough.

I don't want to see dealers being scammed, but there is nothing that I can do. This business involves scammers, custom, paypal...it's like that from Day 1.

[Pugwash]

well, wrong choice of words.

What I mean is that it's not my responsibility to take care of dealer's issues like scammers or custom.

Customs isn't the dealer's concern then. It's yours.

I'm not particularly comfortable with your point of view, to be honest.