Samurai Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 Excellent....My AP ROO sec @ 12 has been going strong for months now.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted February 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 An unserviced movement is an unknown... This particular movement was seized solid when it arrived in the shop...after clean and oil, it's working perfect, go figure?? RG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hooky Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 Zig! Thanks again for a great review. Even thought the AP ROO second @ 12 have had some problems with some members, now thanks to your review we know that a proper service (which all A7750 benefit from) will make this movement just as reliable as the other A7750 and 7750 with seconds @ 3 and 9. We will buy the ROO with some more confidence now. At least, I will THANKS! Greetings from the town where you also spent some time in the Airforce. Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nikki6 Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 Great job Ziggy!! I think you have put a LOT of AP ROO owners minds at ease with just this one post!! lol Seriously, great work!! I would be interested to hear a discussion with yourself and Francisco, who also done a sterling job in his 'poke about' the secs@12 movement. There seems to be 2 VERY differing opinions! With 2, very obviously, inteligent men I think the out come would prove invaluble to the community? But from what I can gather, from both reviews, is that these movements appear to be being shipped without any real care, ie greased and oiled movements. If people are having so many problems with them, the one Ziggy used was totally seized, it would appear that the way the movements are being used and shipped is the problem rather than the movement it's self? I'm no watch smith or expert by any means, but this would seem a fair arguement to me?! Anyone care to add? If you think I'm talking rot, then please say so and I'll shut up, but it seems, to my 'noobie' brain, that this could be where the problem lies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIBOOWW2 Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 I would be interested in availing myself of your services on a 7750. Do you do this? I live in Toronto Thanks Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shundi Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 Great to hear! Thanks for taking the time to do a teardown and post a "gear by gear" as it were! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FWATCH Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 Thanks for the excellent review (again) Rob. Now I guess all us AP fans will be out a few bucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanikai Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 thank you for your time Z .. to have your approval rating on a movement say's volumes !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mb1 Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 great news The Zigmeister,. thanks for taking the time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 Ziggy- Fabulous review. Please keep posting these reviews. As our reps get more and more expensive and the economy gets worse we all have to make more educated decisions so posts like this one become all the more critical. ATB- Kruz PS I finally figured out what the G in RG stands for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 Great job The Zigmeister!! I think you have put a LOT of AP ROO owners minds at ease with just this one post!! lol Seriously, great work!! I would be interested to hear a discussion with yourself and Francisco, who also done a sterling job in his 'poke about' the secs@12 movement. There seems to be 2 VERY differing opinions! With 2, very obviously, inteligent men I think the out come would prove invaluble to the community? But from what I can gather, from both reviews, is that these movements appear to be being shipped without any real care, ie greased and oiled movements. If people are having so many problems with them, the one The Zigmeister used was totally seized, it would appear that the way the movements are being used and shipped is the problem rather than the movement it's self? I'm no watch smith or expert by any means, but this would seem a fair arguement to me?! Anyone care to add? If you think I'm talking rot, then please say so and I'll shut up, but it seems, to my 'noobie' brain, that this could be where the problem lies? The whole key really is friction. There have been many stock A7750 failures as well. By and large Asian movements just come dirty and dry or dirty and improperly oiled or dirty and over lubricated. This has been very well documented. The bottom line is that if these things are bad enough any movement will cease to run - including your gen Rolex or whatever if you don't service it. So you are talking about two issues which are going to be very hard to put your finger on. Notice Rob didn't even bother trying to figure out why it was seized until he torn it down and cleaned and lubricated it. Then it ran fine. It was obviously seized because of my points here. Problems with a complication are another issue entirely. Here we are not talking about problems like this but functions stopping running or skipping due to aligmenet problems, or failures specifically in these areas. So the issues of improper jeweling, ett. being solved, any problem with the movement won't be from that. As a dirty A7750 a host of other things may fail if it is unserviced or should happen to have assembly or maufacturing tolerance problems, etc. It should be free of defects, but it is a cheap Asian movement so anything is possible. But the transfer system to move the seconds to 12 is now sound. You really should consider servicing and A7750 reo you intend to keep because they are all dirty and can and will develop major problems in the future from being so if you don't deal with it. It may be fine for quite some time if luck is on your side. The fact is people don't realize how important service is - especially for Asian movements to keep them running. People want to just try and not spend the money which is fine for throwaways but. If you are going to collect watches get used to spending money on service. If you are going to collect reps get used to having dirty movements out of the box and if they stop they usually need service sooner than you would like. lol. Luck of the draw. Hope that is what you were looking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deltatahoe Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 well this makes my day thanks for taking the time to write about this ziggy PS I finally figured out what the G in RG stands for. all this time i figured i was alone in not having a clue what the G stands for glad you figured it out; i'm sure one day it will dawn on me deltatahoe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francisco Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 I stripped this movement completely, cleaned it, and then assembled it in sections, tested each and every new piece as it was installed, and in the end, it's working perfect, the watch analyzer doesn't lie, I have nothing more to add of any value... RG Yes, this is the point. You analized a serviced movement. The majority of people will not service this movement and a I know a seller that it is complaining about this particular watch, being very problematic, many failures. The falilures are out there, more failures than a regular seconds at 9 movement, this is what he comments. Of course, this movement is an improvement versus running at 6 movements. However, I have seen the wear that the gear E is producing on the plate on Portuguese and Daytonas. And this AP watch has the same gear E. I am still think that this gear E will produce the same wear (why not?), and wear will produce mal functioning, that the analyzer will show then... if the watch is still running... Why they did not use gear E for minute transfer?... so incredible decision..... then it will be a much better movement. I really appreciate your comments and I hope people understand what they are buying. Thanks for your contributions, Francisco. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted February 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 I agree Francisco, and I have been saying the same about the standard A7750 for many years, unserviced = unknown. Until and unless you service the movement, you have no way of knowing if it will keep working. As for the design layout, I have been asking for 4 years now why they have to move the seconds accross the hour and minute tube and have that stupid gear with no jewels instead of bypassing and going around it...I don't have an answer. On the wear of gear "E", I have not seen any noticeable wear on this gear on any watches I have serviced. If your going to have something wear out there has to be friction, I believe the friction on this gear is very small, the gear is not heavy, there isn't a load that it's trying to move, so I don't think you will see much if any wear. I have noticed a lot of differences in the finish of the gears, so maybe this different finish looks like wear... I still read and hear people say that the "old" 21.6K A7750 is junk...I have a PAM 188 with this movement inside, it was serviced 4 years ago, it's been sitting and running NON-STOP for 4 years on my winder, and it keeps on working perfect... There is no quality control, I see A7750's (all types) that are completely dry, others that are covered in oil everywhere, others that are dirty...there is no standard, except when the watch is finally serviced correctly. If it wasn't like this, we would have nothing to talk about RG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francisco Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 If it wasn't like this, we would have nothing to talk about RG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIBOOWW2 Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 The truth is, they are such an attractive range of replica watches, that people only want to hear good news in justifying taking any risk............. For myself, I have had three $300ish 7750 replicas all with issues some small some large - one I live with, one I sent back for refund and the other I am getting a replacement movement - Shanghai Automatic Chronograph Movement 3LZF2 circa 120-150. Including fitting about $200. Not sure if these are the same movements put into replicas but I was recommended this. Servicing 7750's tends to be quite expensive as they are apparently easy to manufacturer but notoriously difficult to work with - needs a pretty skilled and experienced person to take apart and out together again Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 Servicing any chronograph is going to cost more than a non-chrono. The more complicated a movement is the more time consuming to service correctly. But I wouldn't say a 7750 in particular would be hard to work with as a stand out. Cost more than say a 2824 to service? You bet - at least with most watchmakers. If it doesn't you have to wonder if it is being done right. The botton line, and I think Freddy pointed it out not too long ago, is that people some how think replica watches are exempt from service because they are low cost. No mechanical watch is. If you intend to buy and keep any watch you have to factor service into the watch. I bet Rob would tell you that 90% of the problems related to the 7750 clone out of the box are related to lack of lubrication and/or dirt. In terms of quality, the finish aside, it really isn'tall that different that a gen 7750 which has its little quirks, noises, etc. But again, even if you are paying three to four hundred for a great rep and have to factor in another couple hundred for service, you will now have a high quality piece for peanuts. Personally I just don't get the divide there where you could love a watch as long as you don't have to pay two hundred to service it and then that somehow makes it go over budget. It is a fixed cost with any watch and really can't be factored into the "worth" of buying a timepiece. Just because Rob points out that the seconds at 12 is properly jeweled, it doesn't mean the movement is going to run right dry. It is still likely to stop and or seize if it isn't clean and serviced. I would love to see a test of sorts because I believe Rob when he says teh A7750 is a great movement. The test would be how many of them fail within five years if serviced properly out of the gate. I'm betting it is a really low number.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted February 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 The test would be how many of them fail within five years if serviced properly out of the gate. I'm betting it is a really low number.... The failure rate is so small...that it's a shock when one does come back due to problems... I don't know the 5 year rate, but I hear of so few that have caused problems after servicing that it seems to be a non-issue. In fact, the one that does stand out lately, was a genuine ETA 7750 from the batch that was sold here on RWG a while back. It has been back no less than 3 times for various failures and problems...surplus used vs new and unserviced...not sure which I would rather have. RG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toadtorrent Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 Servicing 7750's tends to be quite expensive as they are apparently easy to manufacturer but notoriously difficult to work with - needs a pretty skilled and experienced person to take apart and out together again Indeed it does. That's why we're so lucky to have The The Zigmeistermeister on deck!! I think in many respects it takes MORE skill to work on the A7750's than the ETA/Valjoux because of the idiosyncracies of the Asian movements, the inherent dirtiness and difficulty in getting parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolfire Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 Wonderful endorsement of this movement from The Zigmeister! It is joy to read that most of the transfer gears present little or no friction at all... Thanks The Zigmeister! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIBOOWW2 Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 But I think the sentiments of this forum is that at best , if you don't go out and get it serviced immediately which is very expensive, there is a high risk of failure. At worst, taking the other contrubutors view - the movement is badly designed in the first place and is doomed to break Whichever way, will they live beyond 5 years? Endorsement.......is it?..............hmm...... sort of, but very high caveats Why not go for a 9 o'clock seconds - more reliable and easier to replace movement when the unthinkable happens? Don't these one look as good? R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiker01 Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 But I think the sentiments of this forum is that at best , if you don't go out and get it serviced immediately which is very expensive, there is a high risk of failure. At worst, taking the other contrubutors view - the movement is badly designed in the first place and is doomed to break Whichever way, will they live beyond 5 years? Endorsement.......is it?..............hmm...... sort of, but very high caveats Why not go for a 9 o'clock seconds - more reliable and easier to replace movement when the unthinkable happens? Don't these one look as good? R Only if the watch you like is in that configuration! AP ROOS are not....that's why the sec@12~! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIBOOWW2 Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 It isn't but does it matter?? How many people will actually believe we own a $30,000 watch anyway. Who are we kidding? R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolfire Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 But I think the sentiments of this forum is that at best , if you don't go out and get it serviced immediately which is very expensive, there is a high risk of failure. At worst, taking the other contrubutors view - the movement is badly designed in the first place and is doomed to break Whichever way, will they live beyond 5 years? Endorsement.......is it?..............hmm...... sort of, but very high caveats Why not go for a 9 o'clock seconds - more reliable and easier to replace movement when the unthinkable happens? Don't these one look as good? R I'm no movement expert, but I base my comments on The Zigmeister's record on here. He has also mentioned in his previous reply to Francisco that he is basing his review of this particular movement from a watchsmith's point of view, which is what he is. Well, a correctly-serviced movement can and will last beyond 5 years, but one must bear in mind that movements require regular servicing, around once every 3-5 years - this is well-documented, even for eta / swiss ones. I for one, personally advocate the importance of servicing one's watches, especially those which are keepers. Only if the watch you like is in that configuration! AP ROOS are not....that's why the sec@12~! Yep! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerthat Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 I think the main point here is that reagrdless of seconds at 3, seconds at 12, seconds at 9 the movements being shipped from the factories are in very poor shape. A service is highly recommended. If you plan on throwing away your watch when it breaks down then get what time you can with it and discard and buy a new one when it breaks. If you want to keep it long term, pay the couple of hundred bucks to have the movement serviced. I don't understand: Shanghai Automatic Chronograph Movement 3LZF2 circa 120-150. Including fitting about $200. Not sure if these are the same movements put into replicas but I was recommended this. for the same cost, you could have had your Asian 7750 fully serviced. A fully serviced movement if done by a professional should give you a gen quantity movement. If you like the AP ROO you could get a seconds at 9 rep but you will always know that it is wrong. The gen seconds are at the 12 so if you want an accurate rep you have to go for this model. This is risk involved with any rep purchase. Besides shody quality in the factories they are illegal in most places. Also not all AP ROO's are $30K some are less than half this, furthermore some members here can afford them if they choose to and in fact some members have and do own the gen so speak for yourself. Not all members are trying to fool anyone. Cheers, M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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