Occupation?

[spider87]

I'd like to be in robbie's position also but I feel my outcome would be the same as yours phaedo lol

[Limestone]

Well... started out with a dream of beeing a fighter pilot.

Entered flight school for teenagers, just to get a good start.

Then in my late teens I recieved devestating news... My kidneys were not in a good shape... so that dream went down the drain.

Thought I would go on being a regular pilot, but that wasn

[RobbieG]

Pretty much where I wanted to be 2 years ago Robbie, although problems of getting into the business to start with, then trying to trade on my own with not enough capital and getting into the wrong trades when I did trade... took a long position on one stock a year ago; the options expired worthless - worse luck they basically tanked a week after I got into the trade, dropped 50% of their value in the last few months but are back to where they were. Timing is everything. Every trade I looked at just went the exact opposite way to what I thought it would do, so got frustrated, have hardly even looked at the market in the last 4 months. One day I will get back into it though. Preferably while sitting on a beach with some form of alcoholic drink with a straw in it.

Brother I feel for you but you have to expect that if you don't manage your risk. You also just can't go on thinking that you are going to bet on what any market or instrument will do next. I stay in this game for two reasons and a single credo. The first reason is I never risk more than 1% of equity on any one trade. The second reason is effective capital management and position sizing. And that single credo? I bet with a small edge that gets replicated over time like minting money, but above all, I based decisions on what the market is doing, and never what I think, feel, know, believe, whatever it is going to do next. I repeat the same behaviors over and over again so I can effectively analyze the outcomes.

Good trading is essentially like counting cards in blackjack. Trading is gambling and like gambling can be mathmatically controlled so as to manage risk and eliminate any inherent edges against you. Imagine if Vegas allow card counting and single deck shoes. They wouldn't fare well. But I'll tell you this: The counters who make money know that good habits and keeping the count doesn't mean that the dealer won't pull four blackjacks in a row and bust you for that day. Anything can happen in the short run but in the long run the casino doesn't like it. In other words when the deck is favored to you, bet heavier. But make sure those bets account for the black swan even t as we like to call them - which is the dealer beating you even though the cards were in your favor. Simply put if you blow your whole bankroll (read: don't manage risk and capital) you are going to go broke even though you played perfect. If you preserve capital though, get up and leave beaten, you come back tomorrow and bust them.

I don't make money every month, but I have never had a losing quarter - EVER. Do I have great strategies? You bet. But so does everybody else. All the pros are betting when they have the nuts, but the ones managing risk and not taking flyers with all the marbles are the ones that stick around. It is funny, my clients think I am a stone genius because the scalp account made 81% last October and finished the year with 157%. But me, I hate it. I mean I like the money in my pocket but I wish it never happened. The reason being that people now use that as a new bar to hit. Our clients are saavy traders so I don't fight it as much as I would with retail customers, but still. You see I know exactly why I made that return and it is pure math. All the strategies adjust for volatilty, so if you have a setup that you trade and a typical bar is 4 ticks long and the trade nets you 16 ticks, it makes x. But now all this volume is in the market and everything gets bigger with increased volatility and that bar is now 4 points long, you net 16 points on that trade. Add it up and divide by equity and presto - a huge return. The strategies did the same as they do in any other month, the bars were just bigger so I look like I'm killing it. Meanwhile, that same strategy might make 18% this whole year if things stay calm for a good deal of it. Motion is another big part of it. If the markets aren't moving we aren't trading for the most part. So I amd one of the few Street guys that will admit the truth which is NONE of us know what is going to happen next. NO idea. But they want people to think they do so they can get fees. They are all full of sh*t though. The Wall Street Lie as I call it. Anyway, I just trade perfect or as close to it as I can, manage my position sizing and risk and whatever Mother gives me I take. Sometimes it is nothing or a loss. But I know I'm going to either have more wins than losses or I'm going to win more in each trade than I lose, but never both at the same time in the same trade in the same strategy. It's math really. And very simple math at that. Averaging for smoothness. Even those two schools together can provide a natural smoothing of returns from non-coorolation. As I said, the hardest part is explaining to retail clients that I can trade perfect and break even, or trade perfect and lose 8% in a month, or I can trade perfect and make 81%. It isn't up to me. But what I do know is EXACTLY how much I'm risking and always making sure if I get the worst of it I can't go broke. So in teh long run all my little edges add up and the market is going to have a tough time beating me, unless the black swan comes and I lose every trade for months in a row which is nearly mathmatically impossible.

So your mistake is trying to get ahead too fast Phaedo. If you don't have enough capital to make the money you want - tough as they say. You are going to have to make less until you can raise enough. It took me years to get the respect I do now. So trade one lot and trade it well. Manage your risk and keep good records. If you have strategies that make 20% a year consistently you can raise a billion to trade. I have never had trouble finding money because my stuff makes consistent returns with low drawdowns. In my case I'm not wanting to trade that much and worry about wroking large orders from the floor, hedging complexities, etc. I'm content to just execute everything in Globex and stay smaller. Being nimble is the key and I can make all the money I could ever want with zero stress that way. In a year I won't even be trading any more but just doing only white label software deals with the clients. But even the software is successful because of the risk management algos in it. Just burn it into the brain - risk, risk, risk, risk...It is all that matters. 99% of traders spend all their time on strategies and go broke when they stop working for three days. Meanwhile if you focus on risk you could trade a simple moving average cross on a daily chart and make money hand over fist. It is easy really. If my clients really knew how simplified my strategies were they would think me more of a savant. In unison the whole room would exclaim, "That's it? That's how you pick those trades? You have to be kidding - how novel". It is the capital and risk management man. But that takes some time to really understand how to make it work for you. But when it does it is like magic. Makes almost every strategy work like a charm.

.02

[Demsey]

I'm a Flight Instructor, back into it after a long medical hiatus from commercial aviation. The timing couldn't have been worse in the currewnt environment.

My advice for prospects is to matriculate the "Truck Driver's Training Institute" or in step with the President's stimulus plan with regard to infrastructure; learn a skill with heavy Caterpillar equipment rather than any flight school. You will do better financially, but, the chicks do love the prop and jet jocks over the 'dozer driver. So.

I have a small stake in a commercial fishing venture.............but bascially rely on people like RobbieG to keep the wolf from the door. So I'm pretty much a successful layabout. You know, a capitalist.

[fat.tail.event]

I work on a team that runs money within a large investment bank. Sparing all the technicals, the fund is global in nature and focused on the macroeconomic environment. There are micro specializations that I do not deal with, but safely said we dont own anything micro, only traded....once you have served your short-term purpose, you are jettisoned. Aberrations are hard to befriend so we dont invite them into our house to stay. Put simply, my specific job is to monitor trends; when do you get on a certain train, when do you get off, and when do you give your train to someone else to play with (this generally means that train is broken). Macro means the trains I play with are broad in nature....sovereign debt, currencies, commodities, real estate, SP500. The only train we are on is debt, and probably not for much longer. The broken trains are SP500 and foreign equities...and car loads of poop keep getting added on to those burning trollies, still no caboose in sight.

[phaedo]

@Robbie: I fully comprehend everything you are saying, and the basic problem I have had was of say 10 trades I would have going, 8 of which were paper, 2 of which were live, because that was all the cash I had to be able to trade, I would have a 70% 'win' rate. Problem being, all 7 of the trades I either made on or at least broke even were the paper ones, the 2 that I had real money in ended up losing. I have taken time away from it as that type of thing happening started getting frustrating, but will start paper trading again properly soon I think. In an ordinary sense I wouldn't plan on risking more than 5% of my capital in any one trade, but from where I am right now it is a case of needing to put 50% of the capital into any trade just to break even on commissions with a low expected return. And just to clarify, I specialize in options trading only.

[spider87]

See Robbie and I were discussing it in PM and he suggested I not just randomly get into it to experiment. But my problem is I don't even understand where to start. Anyone can do normal stock trading like that commercial with the baby suggests but it's stuff like Robbie does that I want to get into. That high action high stake high outcome stuff not just simple 'I'd like to buy 100 stocks of enron' 'I'd like to sell my 100 stocks of enron!'. Unless that's what it is just beefed up to sound really action packed? (no offense if it is) because it obviously takes a great deal of skill to be good at it

He also suggested getting into sims of stock trades and stuff but never answered my question about the realistic aspects of it. Like in the sims there is a sell button that you click sell and the stocks are sold... stuff like that doesn't happen in real life does it?

Edited February 27, 2009 by spider87

[phaedo]

See Robbie and I were discussing it in PM and he suggested I not just randomly get into it to experiment. But my problem is I don't even understand where to start. Anyone can do normal stock trading like that commercial with the baby suggests but it's stuff like Robbie does that I want to get into. That high action high stake high outcome stuff not just simple 'I'd like to buy 100 stocks of enron' 'I'd like to sell my 100 stocks of enron!'. Unless that's what it is just beefed up to sound really action packed? (no offense if it is) because it obviously takes a great deal of skill to be good at it

He also suggested getting into sims of stock trades and stuff but never answered my question about the realistic aspects of it. Like in the sims there is a sell button that you click sell and the stocks are sold... stuff like that doesn't happen in real life does it?

If you are serious I would suggest doing a course or two, or signing up at one of the brokerage companies that are online - many are free and have paper trading options basically the same as their live platform. I trade with optionsexpress.com (they are one of the few I can trade with here in Aus) have no minimum opening balance, no ongoing fees etc. They seem to be more expensive than other companies for commissions, but as I said, I am limited to the companies that I can use as a foreigner.

FWIW, I have a finance degree, 2 papers off an economics degree too (should go back and finish that...) so do have some knowledge in the area.

[billywhiz]

Me = an old school rave head, late 80's early 90's UK rave / jungle scene - stuck in time warp, do remixes, bit of production, nothing grand, claim to fame is having remixed track played out by Carl Cox in Ibiza, other than that wolfs at door is system database project manager.

All good.

[Fireman_Fred]

My forum name sort of gives the game away, although, after 24 years in the job, I rarely have to get "hot and sweaty" (except when I'm staying in my apartment in Turkey !!) and spend most of my working days driving a desk !!

While we're all blowing our own trumpets, I forgot to mention that I used to navigate 250,000 tonne crude oil tankers, 125,000 tonne bulk carriers and 80,000 tonne container ships, around the world.... great fun !!

[Demsey]

I got snapped in half backwards through a car in a motorcycle accident about 7 years ago, last couple of years my back has gotten much worse and I started having seizures, I was on HUGE amounts of medication, pretty much all of it opiate based. I was taking 60-70mg of diazipam a day, 100ml of morphine and a load of other pain meds. My main problem was a neuro desease though, my fits got worse and finally I got taken into hospital last year by ambulaance. I had a really bad seizure in the ambulance which carried on into the hospital, about 2 hrs I'd say, when I came too I had no feeling at all down the right side of my body (my right leg was mostly paralysed from the bike accident so was no real change there). I ended up having to stay in a neuro ward in the hospital for about 4 months I think, the week before I was due to get home I had a really brutal seizure, when I came too I was completely blind and have been ever since. This was about 7 or 8 months ago I think, I have had no sight at all since then, not even 'shade sight' where you can tell if its light etc, all I see is black.

Since then I have worked real hard trying to change my life around my disabilities, I'm doing ok I think. I managed to get on a course with the Royal National Institute for the Blind ( RNIB ) and they have been teaching me to use a screen reader called Jaws to navigate around the screen, and you can use a computer without ever having to touch a mouse, so I have worked my ass off learning anything and everything I could and now it looks like I might be going back to work in the nexr month or so. Well I really hope to be anyway.

So there you go, my wee tale. I still have a pretty good memory for watches and really know what I like, and some of the guys on here like TJ, Hike USA, his Royal Pugwashness, have all been great in being my 'eyes' and helping me out if I like the sound of a watch then they will have a look for me and let me know how it is, but mainly my dad is my 'eyes' and since he is as big an enthusiast as me it all works out great!

Good Lord. I just caught this. You must be one tough [censored]-er. Props.

[nuccadoc]

I guess I'm the only doctor so far. I do a procedure in the chiropractic world called NUCCA. It is a rare procedure with only about 100 of us worldwide. I think there in only one of us in London and one or two in Australia and the rest of us are her in the US and Canada. I was introduced to this procedure at the age of 15 (I'm 38 now) and saw what it did for my mother (horrible sciatic pain) and decided that was for me. I absolutely love what i do. People usually hit my door when they have been everywhere and seen everyone and nothing has worked. I have to agree with the many comments that have been made about money making you happy. Yeah, i make a pretty good living, but seeing tears come to a person who just got relief who has been suffering for 10+ years is just fantastic.

My advice.....find out what God's plan for your life is and pursue it will all your might.

[chubbchubb]

My advice.....find out what God's plan for your life is and pursue it will all your might.

Amen to that....

[jody73]

I am an officer in the armed forces. A very interesting occupation that has brought with it some traveling to different hotspots. No lack of challenges and new postings from time to time. Managed to get married and have two kids as well. I consider myself very lucky and as such successful.

nikki6: I am impressed by your go-ahead spirit and how you have managed after the accident. Hats of to you

Cheers

jody

[Justasgood]

I am retired.......read Unemployed.

I only work to pay the bills............unsuccessfully I might add

[chiefwiggum]

Nuff said...................

[fat.tail.event]

spider and phaedo...

I would start by poking around on some forums similar to this one that deal with trading. Try elitetrader.com as a jumping off point. Maybe Robbie has some other hubs of information that he can recommend.

I started in 1999 as a prop trader (proprietary) and my initial advice to you is to read, VORACIOUSLY on the subject matter. While you are reading you must also get screen time...just sit back and watch what happens. Paper trade it if you like (but try not to develop biases or force theses on yourself at this point, stay neutral) to start testing small ideas and patterns you observe. If there is a certain market that interests you, immerse yourself in it. The point in all of this is mental exercising and figuring out how your talents and brains mesh with price movements...everyone has their own style and applies it uniquely. No matter how far you go in this venture, never let anyone tell you differently. Eventually subscribe to a data service that allows you to access to historical pricing info and start backtesting some buy and sell parameters that make sense to you. Look at where you would have won and lost. Be humble and thoroughly analyze your failures. Start keeping a journal and just write about trading. Go back and read what you thought, why you thought it, why you bought, sold etc...develop an innate 'market history' in your brain. You will eventually begin accessing it subconciously once engrained.

I am not saying I know what Robbie's strategies are, but I do know one thing by reading his posts...they are RULES BASED. Once you know 'your rules' everything becomes quite mechanical and thus unemotional. Mastering your emotions is just as critical as your system. Go read TraderFeed. It is quite therapeutic and thought provoking as it relates to markets, market psychology and your own.

[sylar_watches]

Just jumping in on the Trading topic...

I was quite interested in this too last year but didn't want to test my theories with real money. So I went on to the Fantasy Share Trader site from Yahoo (uk.fantasytrader.yahoo.net) and setup and account. It's really simple they give you

[spider87]

Thanks sylar, did you mean you have to pay for trades as in real money for the fake game? Because that sounds kind of weird I may try to find somewhere else if that's the case(I'm going to investigate myself I'm just stating)

Also, f.t.e I liked your tips especially the tip about keeping a journal. This is in essence a way to change your way of thinking. You figure if you write down 'GM is coming out with a new electric car next week should buy stock in them' then their stock fails and you look back two weeks later and realize all you knew was that it was an electric car then you should have done more research into the car itself then judged whether it would be a sucess or not.

Thanks for the awesome tips all and firefighter, where are you located? Either way thank you for your services my friend I know a few firefighters at my current job and some of the horror stories are crazy. I know you said you're not out and about as much as you used to be but that doesn't matter you still did it and still deal with some of the risks and stuff.

[RobbieG]

@Robbie: I fully comprehend everything you are saying, and the basic problem I have had was of say 10 trades I would have going, 8 of which were paper, 2 of which were live, because that was all the cash I had to be able to trade, I would have a 70% 'win' rate. Problem being, all 7 of the trades I either made on or at least broke even were the paper ones, the 2 that I had real money in ended up losing. I have taken time away from it as that type of thing happening started getting frustrating, but will start paper trading again properly soon I think. In an ordinary sense I wouldn't plan on risking more than 5% of my capital in any one trade, but from where I am right now it is a case of needing to put 50% of the capital into any trade just to break even on commissions with a low expected return. And just to clarify, I specialize in options trading only.

5% per trade is much too high to stay in the game through thick and thin. I wasn't aware you are trading options. In that case, no offence to your trading style but I hope if you are trading options you are selling them and not buying them - in other words, in the business of collecting premium. If you are not alreayd doing it, adopt a strangle or better yet butterfly/condor strategy. Sell premium for small credits and debits, pocket the spreads, hedge everything overnight, and just wait for the sweet spots to make a score. The other arm of my group runs the options side and we rarely have a losing month and drawdowns rarely break 3%. Buying options on speculation is suicide trading. More daytraders go broker doing that than anything else - Arbs eat the homerun potential up and the suckers get buried alive. Also, trade index options and never individual stocks. No reason to assume the short term volatility risk unless you are trading a substantial mixed basket of movers you like. I recommend trading the Q's and the RUT. Those strategies work very well for us.

[RobbieG]

+1 on all this. I suspect FT and I have very similar views and approach to strategy. He is right in that this is a full contact sport. I really think it is very tough for someone to do this a second career. You must read everything in sight but the problem is as a noobie you have no idea what you are reading and if it really makes sense in real world application. Keep in mind that 95% of education and systems out there suck. If they worked, why would a guy waste his time selling 30K copies of a book that has they keys to the trading universe if it really won 85% of the time with a 2:1 profit factor? He would be trading billions and not writing books. Just know this, don't buy into the hype that any one thing you learn is teh key. successful trading is about replication of extremely small edges, disclipline, capital and risk management. Real returns are much smaller than the books promise trust me. Everyone wants to quit their job, trade 5 contracts on a 50K account and make a living. "Hey, its only one point a day, I can do that no problem, right?" Um, yeah right...

This business is brutal in every sense. You are up against the smartest people in the world in a less than zero sum game. Somebody wins, somebody loses, AND your broker and the exchange get a cut whichever way it goes. And yes, learn a market inside and out. I know guys that wouldn't trade the S&P if you put a gun to their head. But for me it is like a concerto. Like notes flowing across a page. I got to know the Beast as we call it very well over staring at it, trading it, and relentless backtesting of countless hypotheses over more than 10 years. As much as anything a big part of the battle isn't which strategies you trade (and yes, I believe in rule based trading without emotion or speculative opinions) but rather knowing what everyone else is doing and why. How the market reacts to news events historically, etc. I am always amazed when I go on the forums and poke around to see if anyone is saying anything smart I can learn from. What I see is an amazing number of traders who have the lingo down and all these systems and canned indicators and they don't really know what a market is. The core is where you want to be. If you are long, someone is on the other side of that trade. Why? What are they thinking that is different that you. I probably sound like a broker record with the gambling refernces but all great traders know that those concepts are exactly the same. Traidng is like no limit holdem. The best players play the man, not the cards. in other words, the system doesn't matter as much as how you understand the dynamics of what and why other people are doing what they are doing in order to put together a plan of how you are going to react to each new piece of information that comes in. Our systems are more like adaptive "thinking" algos than anything else. Play the man, not the cards. After all, he is the one on the other side of your trade that has his hand outstretched and trying to pick your pocket...

spider and phaedo...

I would start by poking around on some forums similar to this one that deal with trading. Try elitetrader.com as a jumping off point. Maybe Robbie has some other hubs of information that he can recommend.

I started in 1999 as a prop trader (proprietary) and my initial advice to you is to read, VORACIOUSLY on the subject matter. While you are reading you must also get screen time...just sit back and watch what happens. Paper trade it if you like (but try not to develop biases or force theses on yourself at this point, stay neutral) to start testing small ideas and patterns you observe. If there is a certain market that interests you, immerse yourself in it. The point in all of this is mental exercising and figuring out how your talents and brains mesh with price movements...everyone has their own style and applies it uniquely. No matter how far you go in this venture, never let anyone tell you differently. Eventually subscribe to a data service that allows you to access to historical pricing info and start backtesting some buy and sell parameters that make sense to you. Look at where you would have won and lost. Be humble and thoroughly analyze your failures. Start keeping a journal and just write about trading. Go back and read what you thought, why you thought it, why you bought, sold etc...develop an innate 'market history' in your brain. You will eventually begin accessing it subconciously once engrained.

I am not saying I know what Robbie's strategies are, but I do know one thing by reading his posts...they are RULES BASED. Once you know 'your rules' everything becomes quite mechanical and thus unemotional. Mastering your emotions is just as critical as your system. Go read TraderFeed. It is quite therapeutic and thought provoking as it relates to markets, market psychology and your own.

[HELIAV8R]

Greetings, Noob here. I thought this my be a great place for my 1st post.

I've enjoyed reading everyones occupation descriptions.

As for me, I'm and EMS Rescue Helicopter Pilot, and success is defined at the end of each flight when we all come back in one piece. I hope remain successful as I have a ways to go before retirement. I abosolutely love my job, but am by no means a workaholic. At any given moment, I'd rather be relaxing on or near the beach with my wife and a bountiful choice of adult beverages.

On the the watch front - I own a couple gen Omegas, Tags and other brands. I have been interested in reps for several years, however I have only purchased some recently due to the improvements in quality and accessibility. I got mine from Watchmark, and was impressed with the watches and super-fast service. Now, I want more! It seems to be a kind of disease here....

[spider87]

@HELI, that sounds awesome I've always wanted to fly a helicopter I have seen those personal helicopter kits and figure one day maybe I'll build one of those just for 30ft off the ground fun haha

@Robbie, as you said I can read all the help things and stuff I want but it doesn't help if I don't know what I'm reading. I never learned much about the market or anything at all and that's where I"m trying to start. I went to that Elite Trader forum and started looking around and have no idea what they're talking about let alone where to start to learn from them.. Paper trading? Short? Long? (I can guess these 2 are terms but what does going short on gold mean does that just mean buying a bunch for a quick dollar in a month?) What are options? What are futures? I'm so confused lol

On another note I'm picking up a few notebooks while I'm out today. One will be my trading journal as I feel it will be easier to maintain this through pen and paper than it would be through some website that is built to be as complicated as possible to give you as many options as possible. And one will be a watch sketch book where I think I'll start sketching designs.

[RobbieG]

If you are going to daytrade (flat at the end of each day) as a beginner, I recommend trading index futures. As a small trader the Mini Dow has the best tick spreads and is a little less whippy than the Spoos or the Q's or the Rut. If you are going to swing trade (a few days per trade), I recommend trading Forex or indexes via ETF's. If you are going to position trade (a week or longer per trade), consider trading options via strangles/butterflys/condors i.e selling premium, or if you want to trade futures, energy and metals are volatile but can be rewarding. As always index trading via ETF is fine too. Perfectly liquid, long/short ETF's now on many instruments, & standard 4:1 leverage with many brokers if you want it.

BTW since everyone is obsessed with Forex. Don't try to day trade FX or news trade FX intraday. The desks are the only winners and unless you are a champion thye spreads will eat you alive. It is also a given to use a fixed spread broker that shops the best spreads at all the banks on the fly and not a dealing desk house like the big houses that are the first hits you get in the search engine. EFX group / MB Trading is one with good spreads if I recall correctly. I don't trade FX via the spot market at the moment so I am out of that loop.

All this said, figure out what you want to trade and then buy two books. Just pick any really - one as a basic market type guide - maybe Tony Turner's beginner day trader book or something? The other should be something very specific to futures or ETF's or FX and also be a beginner book. Once you have read those, get a software front end and a free real time data feed. Then devote some time to feeling things out, etc. I'm not an educator so I'll stop there but that should help narrow the field a bit. But the bottom line is like FT said, you are going to want to read voraciously as this is just one of those things where everything you need to know isn't in one book. I still read everything I can get my hands on to this day. I probably have a hundred or more books in my trading library.

[Bullet-Tooth Tony]

I could tell you..........but then I'd have to shoot you.

Same here... but no problem pulling the trigger... just short on ammo at the moment.

Rockstar ... occassionally wear a green hat of french origin.

Did that require a passage in Aubagne?

I am an officer in the armed forces. A very interesting occupation that has brought with it some traveling to different hotspots. No lack of challenges and new postings from time to time.

Same here... but originally in the enlisted ranks... and I definitely miss playing with the toys. As for challenges... if you're talking about military bureaucracy and dealing with people more interested in getting promoted than taking care of missions and men... I agree.