mobile11 Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 While looking up what the highest frequency movements are, I have noticed that mechanically you max out at 36,000 BPH. There were a few manufacturers that created movements like that... my question is, are there any 36k bph movements available in any reps? Anyone have a rep or gen. with a 36k movement? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iceberg1459 Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 TagHeuer Carrera Cal. 360 360k bph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile11 Posted March 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 (edited) interesting, I assume that's a gen... and the reps don't rep the bph? ...wait a second I thought 360k was a typo but I just noticed it is not.... is that still a mechanical movement? Edited March 10, 2009 by mobile11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toadtorrent Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 Technically on a Rolex Daytona 16520, the older movement was a Zenith El Primero 400 used until about 2000. Yes...this movement was running at 36k...but Rolex modified it to bring it down to 28.8k. These can be found in Movado, Ebel, Tag, etc donor watches or movement sets and used to build Frankens. Ubi summarized things in this post far better than I've seen it done elsewhere (look for his reply)Ubiquitous' Reply to Daytona Movements Question: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shundi Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 There were a few movements during WWII that had a 42,000 VPH rate if I recall... "humminbird" movements I think was the term... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 ...wait a second I thought 360k was a typo but I just noticed it is not.... is that still a mechanical movement? The 360 is a 28k8 movement that has an additional 360k movement just for the 100ths of a second chrono. http://www.tagheuer.com/the-collection/con...dex.lbl?lang=en Automatic movement for time, hand-wind movement for the chrono. And no. No reps of this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile11 Posted March 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2009 There something fascinating with fast moving dials, gears etc.. I hope they put plenty of windows into the back.... So what is the fastest moving tourbillon... I know the Gyros do one axis in 24 seconds the other in 60. And I thought I read about 30sec. tourbillons... again I assume the reps are all 60s. The orbital are 60min.. but I think faster is better... look wise at least... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morlock Posted March 11, 2009 Report Share Posted March 11, 2009 The TAG Heuer Monza Chrono has a Caliber 36 at 36,000 bph. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitestripes Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 WOW. I thought 360K was a typo too, but it's a really light balance wheel that's going at 360,000 times/hour. I almost couldn't believe it. Two balance wheels in the movement--1 for the time keeping, 1 for the chronograph. AMAZING. I used to think Tag was mainly quartz fashion watches with Tiger for ads, but looking at this watch, perhaps they truly are "Avant-Garde!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shundi Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 Also- I just picked up a vintage GP with a 36K "HF" (high frequency) 39 jewel gyromatic movement... cheap, cheap money (I got lucky) but even still, they're reasonably priced for what they are (in house movement, etc) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flex Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 Both of these reps have high beat 36Kmovement Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile11 Posted March 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 Both of these reps have high beat 36Kmovement where can you get reps with 36k movements... particularly these two in your picture (what's the movement called?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peyups Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 Seikos have 36000bph movements out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 Zenith is the principle manufacture and innovator for the 36K balance. A few things to consider on this though since you asked I haven't run my mouth in a while. I have the fingers itching for a long post for Lani. LOL. Anyway, we should all be aware though that faster isn't necessarily better. A faster beat rate, all other things being equal, allows for the most superior rate results without a great deal of adjustment. This comes at a price however which is greater friction and a shorter service interval. So while the rate results may be easier to achieve it becomes very critical that the movement be properly serviced to keep achieving these results and/or to continue to run at all. You may have noticed that many of the highest end manufactories tend to prefer slower beat rates. Their contention tend to be that it requires greater skill for the watchmaker to initially achieve those rate results. You will also notice that when classic pocket watch designs (18K beat) moved to wristwatches and got smaller balances it became even more tricky to get them perfect. The old school screw balances were necessary as the core rate result really had to come from the balance, well, balancing perfectly so to speak and/or using the torque in the proper way in the correct part of the power range exiting the mainspring barrel. Although balance contruction has gotten so good these days and all those little screws can be for decoration purposes only sometimes, the regulation challenges still exist for 18K rates. So why do the high end guys still use them then? Timelessness is what they would tell you. They tend to believe slower rates that are less torquey and hence less friction makes for a movement that is more robust, will last longer by not having parts wear out and maybe most importantly have a longer and less sensitive service interval. They also like the fact that it takes skill to make them have rates as good as the higher beat competition and they tend to be proud of that as well. They are kind of saying well yeah, anybody can get good rate results by turning a screw a notch on a regulator, but lets see what you do without a regulator and if you can get a watch running great by adjusting the balance alone as opposed to just effectively shortening or lengthening the hairspring. It is not uncommon to see extremely dirty and dry running 18k beat movements still ticking like a charm. On the other hand, a dry 36k movement or even one which is even slightly dirty can potentially have a lot of problems. This is an age old debate and one that I'll stay out of, despite having my own preference, but I do hear a sort of universal current running through the rep world sometimes which tends to praise 28.8k movements as being always superior to slower beat counterparts. They may be by default in that our best rep movements do happen to be 28.8k designs, but just know that isn't the reason per se that they are superior. If anything, given that rep movements can tend to be poorly lubricated and/or dirty out of the box, it would be better to have slower beat movements in them if we want them to last the longest unserviced. A Chinese 36k movement could prove to be disastourous for these reasons so it might not want to be encouraged. LOL. Meanwhile, the Seagull Venus 175 clone running at 21.6k has always been bulletproof in my reps both poorly lubricated and dirty. Similarly I have has good success with the 6497's & 8's as well despite having the same issues. Maybe slow beat and handwinding are a couple good things to look for in a rep movement especially? Again, I'm not trying to give any opinion, I just wonder given the problems we hear about most (other than modified trains) are related to auto winding and friction and centered around the 7750's. But of course we need to be able to duplicate the gen watches which in these cases tend to have 28.8k movements so the point is moot. It isn't like we have world class Vacheron or AP hanwind dress watch reps, ya know? It is generally accepted even by the purists that 21.6k is a nice happy medium between 18k and 28.8k rates. The old screw crowd kind of gets the best of both worlds this way. Even know the numbers seem closer there is a lot less torque and friction between 21.6 and 28.8. Very few still use 18k movements much and most of the purists are using 21.6k beats for their core calibers. Lange is one of the few that is holding onto 18k the most. Brands that prefer 21.6 (and 18) include IWC, Vacheron, Dubuis, Patek, AP, Journe, Lange and more of course. Meanwhile Rolex, Glashutte, Zenith, Heuer, JLC, and more of course are on the 28.8k side and higher in the case of Zenith and others with the 36k designs. Just a little food for thought on the beat rate world within our world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toadtorrent Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 Robbie's BAAAAACK!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwoTone Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 ...since you asked I haven't run my mouth in a while. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shundi Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 Right...the amount of torque stress on movement components varies from movement to movement but if you're blasting a balance wheel along ten times per second vs 4-6 times per second....do the math as to how much more wear that could potentially cause.... Edit: Double post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 You know that kid kinda looks like me M. LOL. I actually got tired half way through it myself. RWG, the outlet for all the unbridled energy of the most over synapsed human on the planet. I have been really into learning lately with a particular work project and what usually happens is when I'm learning in my own life (even if unrelated) I notice I tend to do learning type threads at the same time. Go figure. I just realized that just now actually. Maybe it helps me absorb stuff better when I spit out technical watch stuff or something. You guys think I need therapy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shundi Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 You guys think I need therapy? No....just switch to Irish Coffee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwoTone Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 You know that kid kinda looks like me M. LOL. That would imply that you're cute Robbie... And somehow I just can't process that thought... Appreciate the stab though... :::grin::: M . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile11 Posted March 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 thanks for the background info.. my initial research said that faster is more accurate but I prefer it to last and work longer over accuracy, which I agree 21k is probably better.... thanks for the insight!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted March 14, 2009 Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 I don't blame you M. I haven't been cute for a long time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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