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You got that right buddy! 12 years ago I went from international traveler/entertainer to homeless and in a wheelchair for a couple years. I recovered and the next ten years I owned a very successful business..6 months ago heart failure, business gone.. Life is full of surprizes and bad things can happen to anybody, what I have learned from all this..never take anything or anyone for granted Enjoy who you have, and what you have... each and every day....even though it's so easy to get caught up in everyday problems.

the one of the left (still have)... but the one on the right was pretty awesome

At the moment: Breitling SuperOcean 44 and Rolex 1665 Double Red Sea Dweller

Introduction: I was going through some old PM's and emails, etc. with some questions from newer members and other discussions regarding handwind chronograph movements and thought since I haven't done a major contribution in a while I might do a post to clear up some common misconceptions about the best known column wheel chronograph movements as they relate to replica watches. This is not meant to be an exhaustive reference or anything, nor am I a qualified watchmaker or expert. But I am a big fan of these movements and have spent a fair amount of time studying them and their history. Before I start with the breakdown let's first distinguish between the column wheel chronograph like the movements discussed here and the cam lever / heart plate style designs such as the tried and true ETA 7750 we are all so familiar with. The column wheel design allows a slotted wheel to rotate via pushers. When doing so the slots between the pilars of the column either admit or reject the beaks of the two (or more in the case of flybacks, etc.) levers which control the functions of start, stop and reset. If the reset is depressed and the chrono is stopped, the reset lever is admitted to a slot on the wheel which clicks into place when rotated by the pusher. The same action will reject the start lever and it will stay out of the wheel. If the chrono is now started, the start/stop lever will drop into a slot instead and the reset lever will be rejected. Finally when the running chrono is stopped but not reset yet, neither lever will be accepted to the wheel. By contrast the Coulisse-Levier design developed by Valjioux uses a three plane cam system known as a heart plate as opposed to a rotating wheel shown here. The operation of this design is a bit tougher to explain, and in the interest of time I will leave out a detailed description here. But suffice it to say the the heart piece limiter type system is not as smooth as a column wheel and the pusher force varies with each function and as such, they are not quite as precise. It is for this reason that the highest end manufactories generally choose column wheel designs for their flagship timepieces and while more expensive, they are widely regarded as being the superior design by high end collectors. There are many excellent replicas on the market which use the principle column wheel chronograph manufactered in China by the Seagull company. More on that later, but we need to first clear up a common misconception created by replica factories. In many of the dealer websites, the Seagull ST-19 is incorrectly called a Lemania movement or a Lemania clone movement. Of course the first statement is not true as genuine Lemania movements are expensive and not found in replica watches, but to say it is a Lemania clone could be deemed both correct and incorrect depending on how you look at it. Again, more on that later, but first a little background on the genuine Lemania movement model most closely connected with our replica column wheel chronograph. Lemania: The Lemania 2310, it's variants, and it's upgraded versions are widely regarded as one of, if not the highest quality column wheel chronograph movement available. It beats at 18K, uses a screw balance and needle index (the upgraded 2310 adds a swan neck regulator. Nouvell Lemania, which is now the movement manufacturing arm of Swatch, was founded as A. Lugrin in 1884 in Vallee de Joux as a dedicated movement supply house speicalizing in high quality complications including minute repeaters, perpetual calendars, and you guessed it - chronographs. The tradename Lemania was adopted in the 1920's and was branded into many watches all the way into the 1960's. In 1932 they initially joined Omega and went on to develop the very famous Moonwatch Caliber 321. The 321 is the hand wound chronograph certified for space by NASA in 1957, which remained available for many years in pretty much it's original form, a few small upgrades aside. This movement was simply an extention of the very earliest version of the Lemania Caliber 2310 initially developed in the 1940's. Here, this early version was actually part of a complete watch from Lemania from the early 40's. Throughout the years many high end Swiss manufactories continued to use the 2310 and it's variants as ebauches in the most raw form as bases for its flagship handwind chronographs. This has been made continually possible since Lemania was officially united with Breguet under Swatch in the 1990's. To this day, 2310's (upgraded to 2320's which include swan necks and others based on the original) are seen in the highest possible form of decoration, as well as adorned with addtional in house complications modules, as the engines of some of the most complicated and expensive timepieces in the world. Famous watches featuring these movements include... Breguet's 5237 Patek's 5070 And the Vacheron Malte Chronograph (more on the rep later) which has been discontinued and replaced with the similar Patrimony Traditionelle Chronograph introduced at SIHH in 2009. Venus 175: So now that we have Lemania out of the way, let's discuss another very similar column wheel chronograph movement which is more closely connected with the clone found in our replicas - the venerable Venus 175. The history of Venus is no less interesting, but instead of going into great detail as I thought was necessary for Lemania to lay the foundation, I would rather focus on the 175's transition to Seagull and hence the replica clones. But just a brief bit of history is that they were originally designed around the same time as the Lemania 2310 and produced at the former Fabrique d'Ebauches Venus S.A. in Moutier between 1940 and the mid 60's. Like the 2310 it is a 17 jewel handwind column wheel chronograph beating at 18K. Absent is the screw balance found on the 2310 (& 2320). The 175 was seen extensively in chronographs of the 40's and 50's and was used especially extensively by Breitling in the original Chronomat and Rodania single button chronographs. The 175 is no longer available new, other than stock piles of NOS movements that may be held by some manufactories and individuals, but both remanufactered and NOS movements keenly decorated are seen from time to time as well - such as this one from Maurice Lacroix (which as shown has been modified to include a usually absent screw balance and swan neck). Perhaps the most interesting item in the Venus 175 history is ironically how we came to be the recipients of its clone via Seagull in relatively recent times. Around 1957, a factory in Moscow started producing a copy of an earlier Venus Caliber - the 150. This was the legendary 'Strela' movement. A few years later Venus was planning to reduce the number of movements they offered and were planning to offer an upgrade of the 175 - the 180. But they realized they needed money to do so which they would generate by selling some redundant tooling they didn't need. They first tried to sell it to the Soviets (who had already shown an interest in copying them) but they were happy with the Strela and turned them down. But it just so happened that at the same time the Chinese Airforce was in need of a pilot's chronograph and for political reasons could no longer buy Strela's from the Soviets. So Venus offered them the 175 by selling them all the tooling to make the movements. Here is a picture of an early 175 seen in a Chinese military pilots watch. It was only in production for military purposes for a time and then was eventually released to civilians as the Seagull ST-19 in more modern times. Modern Seagull ST-19: So now you know the not-so-secret- which is that the handwound column wheel chrongraph found in our replicas is actually not a Lemania or a Lemania clone but rather a Venus 175 clone. In fact, one might even make the case that it is a Venus 175 really, since it is manufactered using the original tooling - or at least was at one time. Of course blued screws are laquered and not flame blued and the final finish, decoration, and assembly is how shall we say, "all China", but the function and robustness stand. In fact, many watchmakers have given a sort of seal of approval to the ST-19 as one of the best movements to come out of China. Even the dirty versions seen in our watches always seem to hold up well, but if you take the care to have it serviced, there is no reason it couldn't last for many years or even a lifetime. I didn't want this article to really get into talking specifically about available replicas with this movement so I will limit the discussion to a brief overview of just one - the Vacheron Constantin Malte Chronograph that I once owned. Without going into great detail let me just say that the rep is extremely accurate despite being of a Lemania 2310 (2320) based gen. The reason as you can see by now is because the Lemania and Venus movements are very close to each other in looks. Absent of course is the high level of decoration and the raised gold lettering on the bridges, but in a pinch it will pass. After all, who would really know or examine it that closely? The one thing I will point out is the subdial spacing on the gen, which is Lemania based is closer to the center than on the 175, so the rep's subdials are a bit further apart. Other than that, the dial is quite accurate as well. Beyond the Malte, there are many other replicas using this movement from Breguet to Omega and beyond, and you will find many of them quite accurate (all things considered) to their usually very expensive genuine counterparts. So I hope you have enjoyed this article and learned a bit along the the way. I also hope that the new found knowledge may make you seek out and appreciate more reps and gens using these movements, and that you find them as fascinating and beautiful as I have over the years. EDIT ADD: I have already recieved a couple questions which I left out, so here goes - and if I get any more I will try to answer them here at the end if I can. The first question is what are the sizes and retail prices of the gen watches using the Lemania ebauches I mentioned... -The Breguet 5237 is $28,900 in WG and is 37MM -The Patek 5070 is $47,300 in WG and is 40MM. However Patek is shrewed and limits supply of these. Availability is so tight they are like the SS Daytona in a sense. Collectors really desire them and they routinely sell for $65,000 or more and as much as $110,000 for the platinum version new with box and papers. Ouch! -The Vacheron Patrimony Traditionelle Chronograph is new this year at SIHH and is 42MM. It is new and retail pricing is not out yet on it. But the Malte Chronograph it is replacing retailed for $41,500 in WG last year and was 41.5MM The second question is which movement is better, the 2310 or the 175... The answer is a subjective one, but most agree that the Lemania 2310 and variants is the better movement. One reason is the 175 uses a longer push rod which tends to break when it gets brittle and the Lemania uses a much shorter one. Another is power reserve. Depending on the model, Lemania handwinds are capable of 60 hour reserves or more. Finally, the 2310 is the slimmer of the two (also smaller in width) by about 4% which makes for slimmer, more elegant casing. The third question is since the movements look almost identical, why is the subdial spacing off on reps of gens built with the Lemania as opposed to Venus movement... The answer is simple. Size. The 2310 is 27.5MM wide and the 175 is 31MM wide. Doesn't seem like much, but in micro mechanics it is huge. Since the 175 clone in the reps is so much bigger, what happens is in order to rep the case size correctly they have to adjust the dials accordingly. Since the movement is too big for the case so to speak, it effectively moves the subdials away from the center and toward the edges of the case. So if you look at the dial of the Malte rep for instance you can see that while the cases are very close the subdial spacing is quite different on inspection. The 23(20) in the gen is smaller in width, whereby moving the subdials inward. You can see how they had to adjust the outer indices on the rep to compensate. Notice how the little dots at 9 and 3 are missing. You will of course see a similar reaction on any rep designed around a Lemania gen. But as I said, nobody would ever really notice that in person unless they were really looking for it. Gen: Rep: R

Well having my financial life spiral into the ground back up then spiral back down again I can officially say I have no watches! I've owned everything from super Sean 3135 powered subs to panerai daylight to some rare pieces such as bk transformers. Now I have 0 watches! It is beyond a weird feeling for me and hurts even more to see such beautiful watches in the wild but not to worry gents I have a very nice build coming up as my life heads in a more positive manner! Gotta say you guys have been a great group for the few years I've been on here!

Starting the day with a homage 42mm MM on a solid stainless bracelet Homage of the PAM392

This has been 8 months in the making, not long by some standards on this forum I know, but the longest for me. I've had some great help along the way, special mentions to Mel, mark_midlands, Elias and 951MAX. The original inspiration came from the movement that I picked up late last year. I know it's not gen but it's a beautiful thing and I couldn't see it mounted in anything else. The case is River's 6154 with a lot of reshaping. Because the stem was 0.9 and I couldn't find a replacement I decided to replace River's crown and tube with one from Athaya (his new bronze 8mm would look amazing here but he doesn't have it in 0.9mm) I drilled out the hole for the tube and wanted to raise the tube away from the case and solder it up like the old Rlx's , after many failed attempts mark stepped in and did an amazing job at soldering for me. Never one to let it be and despite Marks amazing job, I had already ordered the 'correct' solder and decided to add to what Mark had done and sand it back. The dial is one of V's amazing Rol's that I have lightly aged, it is so stunning that I can't bring myself to go nuts with it. The movement is still a little vague, as far as I can make out it's Swiss made and branded Nacar, and all I can find reference to is Turkish railroad pocket watches. I gave it a clean and filled the engraved text with red acrylic, it's the most accurate movement I've owned. Hands are Adrians, I had a spare set of cali hands that I'd stripped off the blue and had been heat treating but I decided to 'borrow' a double pencil minute hand from another set and treat it the same, it's a combination of heat, then egg in a bag, then lumed with the good old stuff AKA cornholio, topped off with a faux CP The strap I made along with Elias's nickel vintage knife edge brass buckle. I wanted it to have some vintage Rol feel the way it is stitched and it is soft as butter. On to the pics, I just re-finished my 6152/1 with an LP dial and new hands so that's crept in to some of the shots too

I'll second that, I had one of these when they were first released. Truly questions the decision to buy a Gen one, its really that good. Check out the double silicon green O rings inside. DH

Congrats , really nice Watch , wear it well for long while

Big crown, again

"I have less then zero patience, lol." We have all learned there are two things this twisted hobby will teach you (if you stay with it)...patience and persistence.

Great pic mate!

Love my new diver!

What are you guys talking about........that's a top secret prototype that was never released to the general public, its made entirely out of Pierce Brosnan's Semen, Omega affectionately named it the Semenmaster.

When all is said and done, the bottom line is that our reps are just that, replicas. Nothing more. They are copies, fakes, knockoffs, not the real thing. You can spend $3000 using mostly genuine parts, build a franken, and it still is not a genuine 'Rolex'. The only place you can sell one is to someone who wants a replica. And only a very few of us would pay $1000 or more for a replica. So, they're not snobs, they are realists. That said, I'm not goofy enough to pay $6,000 or more for a watch that I can buy/build/mod for under $500 that the 'experts' can't tell is a replica. This is where it comes in for our community. Everyone here 'fits' from the $100 'noobmariner' to the several $thousand 'franken'. Each of us chooses what is 'best' for ourself. And our community even has expert watchmakers who will service our watches with no issue, and likely better than the local guy who doesn't have a clue what we just handed him. With an ETA or other Swiss movement the local guy passes up business, and making money. That's up to him. With a 21j movement it's likely more trouble for him than it is worth. For under $25 you can remove the movement, hit it with a hammer, and install a new movement with limited skills and tools and all the help ever needed from members here. After all, the worst that can happen is you screw it up, and if it needed service, it was screwed up already. The first time is scary, the 5th time is fun, the 50th time is just a pain in the 6. We are special people here who make a silk purse from a cow's ear, and do it quite well. We learn and do, and have those who can do for us if needed. We have more options than anyone. We have made the best of watch ownership right here.

Good morning folks , I was checking Silix web site and found Latest version of PO 45mm swiss 2836 for 150$. I've emailed him about waterproofing and got his response that he would test the watch before sending ( 5AT garanteed ) Is it the same 5th generation or UPO the our respectful dealers selling for 250 and up ? Did anybody deal with Silix lately ? Thanks Spasibo