automatico

"It is a 62 double swiss dial ....it is rare ..but is it worth 20 grand....to the person who is willing to pay it , I suppose." The catch (with overpriced items like this) usually is the buyer who pays $19000.00+/- for it may have nowhere to go when he gets tired of it in a few months and ends up taking a big loss. I have seen this many times. If someone pays this much for the watch they are probably one of maybe 10 buyers in the world who would pay this much for this watch...imho. Goofy lunatics at auctions are exceptions of course. Or...the buyer keeps it and 20 years down the road he goes toes up and his grandkid sells it to a pawn shop for $200 to get a buzz on. I have seen this too. Since it is not my $$ I get a kick out of it...but what do I know? (1962) "But that was the year my favorite engine came out, the 327 cubic inch with the small journal forged crank." Yep, I went through quite a few 'skinny crank' 327s. Had one in a 'Street Racer' '55 Chevrolet with a CSC 3/8 stroker crank (364 ci), roller cam/rev kit, Vertex magneto, Edelbrock 'Tarantula', Holley 850 'Center Squirter', 'Angle Plug' heads, M22 Rock Crusher, 4:88 Posi etc...and a straight front axle. It was a ground stomper back then but now an average stock high HP late model Mustang, Camaro, Challenger with the A/C on will leave it in the dust. I parted it out in the summer of 1970, put a 300HP 327 with M21, 3:70 in it and sold it for $1100 with four 8 1/2 x 15 American 200S wheels on it. (!!) Put the 3/8 engine and all in a rusted out '56 2 door sedan and raced it for a while. Guy down the street bought a new 429 Boss Mustang and I beat him like a drum. I had already beat him with the '55 but the '56 looked like a junkyard reject and he thought he could run away from it. Nope. He always had an excuse, that time it was: "I missed a gear". I said: "I can't drive 'em both." I broke a rod in the 3/8 motor and sold it to a friend in Atlanta to fix and put in his drag racer Corvette. He won a lot of races with it. Now he has a small block engine in a motorcycle and does exhibition runs...smokes the tire for 1/8 or 1/4 mile depending on the track. Iirc it is 3 runs for $300. One tire is good for four or five 1/4 mile trips. Q...Why a Chev powered MC? A...We used to see 'The Michigan Mad Man' at the local drag strip and got to know him. He traveled around making exhibition runs and we got to see him 4 or 5 times. 1...He pushed the MC to the start line and put the MC on a stand that folded down and lifted the back wheel off the ground. 2...He started the engine with a battery on a roll-around stand. 3...He got on, revved it up, watched the tree countdown, rolled it off the stand, and awaaay he went. Our job was to hang around the starting line and make sure he got turned around at the end of the strip and rode back. He traveled by himself and we were drafted to help if he stalled at the end of the strip (no clutch). He always turned it around and rode back without killing the engine. https://www.hagerty.com/articles-videos/articles/2019/05/22/ej-potter-the-michigan-madman Last time we heard from him was a few years ago when my wife talked to him on the phone. RIP 4-30-2012

Around $20,000 evidently. https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/vintagerolexforum/fs-rolex-explorer-5500-double-swiss-gilt-dial-t254416.html I bought an AK like this, rivet oyster and all except with a regular AK dial for under $1000 a couple years ago so that makes the dial around $20k from my perspective. I also have a box from that era that was given to me but no papers for the AK. Seems like a lot for a dial. I take it all back. The price was reduced to $19,750 this morning, making it 'affordable'. But I'll still have to pass on it because I am saving up for my next 409... "Well I saved my pennies and I saved my dimes. (giddy up giddy up 409) For I knew there would be a time. (giddy up giddy up 409) When I would buy a brand new 409." I finally got a used 1962 Chevrolet 'Bubble Top' with a 409 when I was out of high school...409, two Carter AFB, four speed, 411 Posi. Before that (senior in HS) I had a red '61 Impala with 348, three deuces, 4 speed, 370 Posi etc. Paid for them myself working every chance I got. They are long gone but I still have an aluminum 409 intake manifold (for a single Carter AFB) that I use in the garage for a doorstop on windy days. https://classics.autotrader.com/classic-cars/1962/chevrolet/bel_air/101114655

MOAB: "But when all is said and done it's a Rolex, have to give them credit they know how to market their product." Rolex made the watch and the J. Walter Thompson Company made them famous. WATCHING THE STATUS SYMBOL... "On a first date," wrote Dugald Jellie in the Sydney Morning Herald, "a girl once told me you could tell the quality of a man by the quality of his shoes and watch. At the time, I was wearing black R.M. Williams boots. And a Rolex on my wrist. Mind you, it was a 100 per cent faux Rolex, picked up in Hong Kong for about $7. That's the sort of bloke I am; a fake, a phony who straps on a $7 watch. But hey, it told the time. Which is what a watch is all about, plus a whole lot more." Australian watch retailer Greg Alexander (as told to Dugald Jellie of the Sydney Morning Herald) "It's a sales and promotion and public perception phenomenon. They're good-quality watches (rolex), but they're no better quality than any number of other brands that sell for much less." JB: "Truth be told, what is a gen Rolex really worth? We build replicas all the time with movements just as good and just as accurate most for well under for under $1000 usd." True. Is a 5512/13/1680 etc back from rolex service in a replacement 444 case with a new Luminova dial/hands, replacement bezel assembly/crystal and rlx serviced 1570 still 100% genuine? That's a real good question. Imho it's a 'referb' or 'parts watch'. Not 'original' and not 'worth' much more in reality than similar guts with a 'refinished' Vn dial installed in a high grade 'Ruby' etc aftmkt case. In other words it is a 'Frankenstein' like we put together even if the replacement parts came from rsc. It might pass as 'genuine' to many but it is not 'original'. One $$ saving step down from a Frankenstein: A carefully assembled 'MBK' etc case with fresh ETA and 'refinished' dial is just as good and almost no one can tell the difference...but it ain't gen-u-ine at all.

"These 60-70 dive watches are a cool part of the history." Totally agree. Twenty five years ago... I bought a few vintage divers back when they were $50 to $100 used in good condition and still have most of them today. The Zodiac Sea Wolf is a favorite except for the horrible snap on case back. They really bit the weenie on that. Loaded up on Bulovas, especially dressy Oceanographers but they are not really dive watches with fluted 10k gold bezels like a DJ but they were rated at 330 feet and had 'Ocean' in their name. I call them 'OOs', like in Oh, Oh, is that water in your watch? They came with yellow or white solid 10k gold fluted bezels with yellow or silvertone markers/crowns. The white gold bezel models are harder to find, especially with black dials. Caravelle also made some steel '666' and '333' dive watches. They made a slew of 333 ft wr 'Half Devils' with Citizen movements in the 1970s and they are good for everyday wear...cool looks, rugged, thin, accurate, and affordable. Now and then you can find one fairly cheap. Past few years... Traded into a pretty good vintage Aquadive 3 or 4 years ago but it is gummed up and I never fixed it. Same with a Hamilton 'Compressor' and a few others that are beginning to be worth fixing. Many of the less famous vintage dive watches were rated the same as 1960s/1970s rolex submariners but rlx knocked most of them out with a larger selection of models and slick advertising. Now divers wear a $175 plastic Mares Puck. While rolex is in the $20,000 Cuff Shooter watch business. Twenty thousand dollars!! Times have changed. Here is a good laugh: http://forums.timezone.com/index.php?t=tree&goto=7621918&rid=0#msg_7621918

"I may have one or two of them in the box, I'll have to check. They worth anything as a collectors item?" They may be worth digging out because mine has a new (nos now!) swiss Eta 2836 with China 24 hour kit and the case is not too bad. Better than one with an etaclone by a long shot imho and the non adjustable China 24 hour kits used back then were trouble free. I went through my repjunk last week and found some watches I had forgotten about including two swisseta 2836 '1655' and a pair of 36mm swisseta sapphire 'explorers' from Abay.

I have not seen a bracelet exactly like the one on the watch...from the pictures it looks like it is plated on the front and sides only, not the back. The bracelets I have owned were gold filled/plated over brass or gold plated/filled over steel on all sides. This one might be a later model, mine were older bracelets made for four digit watches. I sold a nos 15505 timehead with nos stretch rivet (gold plated/filled over steel) bracelet March 2019. Do not remember the ref number on the older type bracelet though. I had the watch 15 years and only one person ever showed any interest in it, and they bought it. Btw the bezels on these watches are solid gold and the 1550 and 15505 cases are basically the same, a 1570 date movement or 3035 will fit in either one. Here is a 78351B bracelet on eBay: eBay item number 163792665632 'prized member' Made me blush.

This Titus Calypsomatic article mentions Jacques Cousteau but nothing about him wearing one: https://tituscalypsomatic.com/history-1/

There were some genuine 36mm OPs offered...reference number 116000. You can find replicas by searching for 'replica 36mm rolex oyster perpetual date watch'. There were also some 36mm AK replicas made about 10 or 15 years back, most had explorer type dials with 'Air King' above center without the SCOC blurb below. Exact same watch as the sapphire Exp I replicas except for the dial and hands. Pictures of genuine 116000: https://www.swissluxury.com/rolex-watches-oyster-perpetual-no-date-36mm-domed-bezel.htm

"Many of the "repainted" dials you see are not actually repainted blanks - more likely they have fake Singer stamps." Agree. Maybe one out of one thousand are genuine blanks. After handling a lot of genuine dials the 'fake blanks' stand out...poor dial foot soldering, dial feet too big or too small in diameter, too long or too short, dials too thick or too thin, notches at 3 or 12, ratty name stamping on the back etc. After all, where are fly by night 'dial refinishers' going to get hundreds of genuine new or used dial blanks? "A complete 5513 replica case is much cheaper than a dial from there so it's kind of weird." Very, very weird imho. In 2005 'Paul' of Abay fame sold me 10 vintage 5513 and 1680 submariner 'Singer' stamped ETA dials for $10 each delivered. Not first class quality dials of course but not too bad either so maybe a first class dial will cost $25 or $35 now at the source. The cost involved in making dials is the pad printer and associated pieces. A pretty good manual model can be had for $2000 or less and a one man operation can crank out dials faster than he can sell them. Cases take a LOT more work than dials but my guess is many of the sellers buy them for not much $$ and detail them before sale. In my experience, aftmkt rlx dials are hit or miss no matter who sells them. I have dials from IG44, Yuki, 'Paul' and a few 'UFOs' that I do not know where they originally came from. Yuki dials are Ok (about 20) except for two that had printing that looked like '''''''''''''''''''''''' under magnification instead of solid lines. About 6 on a 10 scale. All the others are better, about 7 or 8 on a 10 scale. The 'Paul' dials are about a 6 on a 10 scale. The dials that came on my MBK watches are about 7 on a 10 scale not counting the rough outer edges where they cut the 1680 dials down to 26.0mm. IG44 dials are about 8.5 on a 10 scale. They are the best of what I have. The 'UFOs' are between 6 and 8 on a 10 scale. The one that ranks 8 was claimed to be an IG44 dial. The dial that came on my 2 or 3 year old cartel '5513' is about 6 on a 10 scale and is very close to the 'Paul' dials from 15 years ago...sharp lettering and hour marker dots but the lettering/minute marks are a bit dim and do not stand out like Yuki etc dials. Have a few low ball steel case/bracelet YM and submariners from 15 or 17 years ago and the dials are about 4 on a 10 scale. Besides the overall quality being sub par, the lettering is silver instead of white. They are tough SOBs though, a few from back then are still running (ST16 mvt). They were between $28 and $35 back then depending on quantity iirc. A guy sold them out of the back of his car.

It has 'The Look'. Many do not. What is 'The Look'? Hard to describe but it has it. "The movement (for now) is a SeaGull 2824-2 with datewheel removed and no spacer since that's all that will fit in a gen. spec 5513 case until I buy a 1520, 1530, or 1570 movement in the near future." Buyer Beware. Example...here is a 1520 being sold as a 1570 with 4 hours to go: eBay item number 223623776858 If it stays below $1200 it is still not too bad at today's prices. Update...it went for $1430.55 plus $25 shipping. Maybe the buyer knows it is a 1520. Maybe not.

"Didn't MBW do that on a batch of GMT Master dials way back in the day?" Have a '1675' from around 2005 with a swisseta 2836 that has 'OYSTER PERPETUAL DATE' on the dial. The word 'DATE' should not be there. Since it has a 28800 bph movement maybe it can pose as a '16750' with 'DATE' on the dial by mistake. Printed marker dials did not have the word 'DATE' (afaik, never say never), but the 16750 with applied markers did have the word 'DATE' on the dial. It also has a 6.0mm crown, might be a submariner case of some sort. It looks pretty good from about 15 feet away. Also have a clasp from the same period with 'RBGFRKED' over 'SNSAWABE' on the left side and 'STEBLHOX' on the right. They must have been Shitinerand when they made them. Here is a similar clasp: https://www.rwg.bz/board/index.php?/topic/51294-rolex-datejust-rbgsfrked-snsawabe-steblhox/

Good fix. Otoh...I am deeply hurt. I'm proud of my cheap tin replicas. ...and BB panties.

Why are looney toon rolex freaks paying $15 or $20 thousand bucks for average 5512/13, 1680 after they sat idly by when the same watches (with less wear and tear) were for sale for $2 to $5 thousand bucks a few years ago?

"My first experience in buying replicas was when Paul had his crazy $159 sales with high quality merchandise and was immediately hooked on this bug. I never had a problem with any of his items and the quality for a "non quality control" outlet was impeccable. His submariners were well made with a quality eta 2836-2 movement and also passed the pressure test which I used it for swimming for many years." My first experience with mail order 'swiss replicas' was with Watchlover David around '99 or 2000. The watches I got had new swiss ETA 2836 and they will still run today...no date sapphire 'lug hole submariner' and ETA 2836 'Too Big' AK in 36mm cases with sapphire crystals and no hole cases. You can turn the AK into an explorer by changing the dial and hands. Next it was Paul for a few vintage submariners/sapphire submariners/GMT/Exp II plus a couple vintage '1655' and one '1675'. The 1655 and 1675 were not too hot because they were in submariner cases. All had new swiss ETA 2836 and were good quality except the vintage submariners had the rotating bezels shoved down over 'short skirt' crystals with a spring wire expanding between the crystal and case top to hold it in place rather than an inner bezel. Good movements/bracelets, fair dials, nice silver DW, oem spec case necks, case tube threads, and OEM spec He valves. Before and during the 'swiss replica' and Frankenstein phase, I had quite a few A21 jewel low ball replicas. Some good, some not so good. I burnt out on Frankensteins with rlx 15xx movements a while back and removed the 15xx and went back to slow beat swiss ETAs. Now if I drop one I am not afraid to pick it up (I've posted all this before). So what's new? In between projects I sometimes stick a 'grudge watch' together that I wear just to see how it holds up. A 'grudge watch' is basically a watch that gets no respect and has no future. This time it's a cartel '5513' with manual wind Seagull ST16 (a/w works removed). This is old news but the 'new' news is after maybe a month of abuse it has really surprised me. I wind it every morning and set it on Sundays...it might lose a little or gain a little depending on wearing conditions and how it lays at night. I did not set it last week and this week it was about 25 seconds fast. Pretty good for a grudge watch with a $35 movement...better than my $$ F-steins with rlx 15xx or swiss ETA.

I too would vote for the Steinhart because of reliability. I usually end up 'overhauling' replicas that I wear for more that a few weeks because most of them are (I'm being polite here), Junk. Imho replicas are Ok if you are a half azz watch mechanic and can keep them running. For example...an MBK or cartel 55xx with a fresh ETA is hard to beat for a 'knock arounder' but they might cost as much as a Steinhart by the time you get one together. Otoh a genuine vintage 55xx, GMT etc is not worth a fidley damm for daily wear (imho) because of today's absurd prices and high service/parts cost, making replicas a viable alternative...if you can stand all the 'Fake people wear fake watches' BS. Ha! I know a lot of fake people and none of them wear fake watches. "BREITLING: New Pluton 3100" Bought a New Pluton 3100 in June 1990 from Alan Marcus & Co, Wash DC. Traded it for a Callisto and some $$ in 1998. Iirc my 3100 had a Citizen/Miyota Y652 movement. Seiko/Hattori H461 is the same thing.

Here they are: eBay item number 123414447503 10 available Item location: Sydney, Australia Ships to: Worldwide

" I'll pressure test after I finish thinning the case a bit and report back..." I pressure test some of my project watches and rigged a Bergeon 5555/98 so it can be pressurized with an air tank (posted this before). Usually start out around 20 or 30 psi and go to 100 psi (about 7 atm) if the watch will make it that far. I have had quite a few crystals blow off the case when plunged under water and the pressure released quickly...a good reason to test them without a movement. Do not know how much pressure the tester will stand but the 555/98 is supposed to be an improvement over the 5555 that was famous for cracked pressure domes. I have also made cases leak slightly so the case will pressurize and blow the crystal off to remove a crystal without prying on the bezel...gold bezel DJ etc. I find about as many leaks around the case tube where it is screwed into the case as crystal leaks, especially if the case tube to case gasket is not a good fit. If you look in a watch and rust is crawling up the stem, it is usually the case tube or crown leaking. The rust will travel and start eating on other bits in the movement before long. eBay has China made 5555 type testers for around $125. The 'swiss made' Bergeon is $700 or so. Ream. Apply lube. Gouge.

"Both are too loose, but the Clark's is closer - it moves JUUUUUST BARELY around the case neck." If this is without the crystal retainer ring... It will be Ok because the crystal should not be a tight fit over the case neck. What matters is how it works with an oem spec crystal retainer ring. If the retainer ring feels too tight (like it might crack the crystal) when pressing it on, the OD is too big. It should feel a little bit tight at first then press on down without stopping. If the ring goes all at once with little effort, it is too loose. "...it moves JUUUUUST BARELY around the case neck." If this is after the crystal retainer ring has been pressed on and you can turn it by hand...it's too loose. You should not be able to turn it with your fingers. GS makes three or four different 5512/13 (T19) crystals. I used one on a DW case that has a 28.1mm crystal neck (should be 28.2mm). The oem spec crystal retainer ring squeezed it down tight enough to work. I do not remember which GS p/n it was. http://www.ofrei.com/page419.html GS crystals are precision made and all are very close to the same but many no name generic crystals may vary quite a bit so I gathered up a small collection of them and use the closest fit. "I'm just too cheap to drop $900 on a fake case." If you pay $900 for a case, it is a Reproduction case, not a fake case. Ha!

"In the last 6 years, I am actually having a Hard time locating a stainless steel generic 5.5mm screw down crown as every source I have searched have plated brass ones!" If you can go with rolex spec 5.3mm parts, ST Supply has them: RP24-530W Generic Stainless Steel Crown without Emblem to Replace Rolex 24-530. Includes Stainless Steel Case Tube RP24-5320-SS with Gaskets. $17.95 http://www.startimesupply.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=1&Category_Code=1D_Rolex_Crowns_Generic&Product_Code= They also have assortments: http://www.startimesupply.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=1&Category_Code=1H-Parts-Crowns-ByType-Screw&Product_Code=AST530X If you need only a few of one type, order 'refills' for the assortment. Otoh I bought a few screw down crowns sold as 'stainless steel' that turned out to be plated brass. ST parts have always been what they say they are. Never owned a Vostok but had a few Poljot 3133 chronographs. I asked a Russian guy selling them at a watch show how to pronounce 'Poljot' and he said "Poley-oat" 'Oat' like in horse feed oats…but he had an accent. In my experience, a Poley-oat 3133 chrono was much like an eBay Alpha with an Asian 2813 of some sort...if it ran for a week, it would usually go for a few years.

"Also.. 1680 subs used 1575 movements (marked 1570)." True. Most refer to them as 1570 no date or 1570 date movements. I have owned 40 or 50 watches with 15xx movements over the years and have never had one with 1575 stamped on the auto bridge. Bought a '1570' on eBay 7 or 8 years ago that turned out to be a 1560 with a 1570 auto wind plate or assembly...they turned the rotor to hide the 'curb feeler' over the hairspring. I paid $650 for it so looking back it was an Ok deal. From what I have seen on 15xx movements: No date serial numbers have no letters, numbers only...if original and not converted. Date movement serial numbers begin with D. Milgauss 1019 with cal 1580 serial numbers begin with M. Loose movements are few and far between. Day-Date serial numbers begin with DD and auto wind bridges have 1555 (18000 bph) or 1556 (19800 bph) on them...every one I have seen was this way. Seems they were more careful with DD movements being correctly labeled. Cal 1530 may or may not have a serial number from what I have read (do not know for sure). I have one in a 5501 tutone AK (dated III-62) and it has a serial number. Never saw a 1520 with a serial number...yet.

MSM: "I have a genuine 1680 dial that was re-lined and shaved to 26 mm to fit a 5513 case. I have a genuine 1565 movement with original hooked 7 date disc as well." Nanuq: "My advice is to hurry up and wait." Good advice. I will add one thing to "My advice is to hurry up and wait." While waiting, read everything you can find about these projects to avoid making more mi$take$. The mi$take: You would have been better off if you had left the dial at 26.5mm because all oem spec '5512/5513' cases are made for 26.0mm dials (your shaved dial is Ok for this), and thinner no date 1520/1530 movements (1530/60/70 in 5512 -- same case). So...your movement is too thick for a 55xx case and the dial is too small for a 1680 case. If the dial was still 26.5mm an oem spec 1680 case would work. Q...What are the options? A...Not much using oem spec 5512/13 cases because of the date movement thickness. Q...What will work? A...A 5512/13 cartel case that is oem spec (correct case neck size/bezel set size/dial seat/case tube threads) but made for an ETA 2836 will probably work...or an MBW/MBK case. Note...Cartel cases can be hit or miss from one batch to the next, even from the same dealer. Read the sticky 'Building an MBW Sub' a couple times to find some of the answers to putting rlx movements/oem spec dials in MBK cases. Good luck with the project!

"And one guy says it's a Seagull ebauche with 60% Swiss components." Could be. Seagull is probably the best Asian etaclone according to what I have read.

"More competition for swatch????" It seems that way. Toot has geared up to make movements in what is becoming a shrinking market so they have to push the movements upscale...probably their plan all along. Otoh, for years swatch sold their high quality 28xx 'bread and butter' movements at very low prices to anyone who wanted them and now an ETA 28xx is seen as a movement in <$1000 watches. Toot can start out in a much higher niche than the ETA 28xx by selling their 'All New! Exclusive!' movement to high priced brands and still make $$ at a much lower volume. Looks like Swatch may have stepped on their weenie, especially since they are the main cause of all the etaclones that have watered down their B&B 28xx movement sales.

"It kind of looked like a modified eta." Yep. They do look somewhat like the souped up etaclones that are stuffed in many current replicas. I call Asian etaclones '90 day wonders'. Q...Why? A1...Because it probably took about 90 days for the factories to go from zero to finished movements. A2...You are lucky if they run for 90 days before they seize up. My guess is rlx/toot decided to go into the movement biz on the side and supply movements to other brands by forming a separate movement company outside of rlx. The Breitling/Chanel by toot movements are probably very close to the regular 'in house' toot movements with a few detail changes to disguise them...different rotors etc. If toot movement production cost is close to what it costs swatch to crank out a higher grade decorated chronometer movement (chronometer grade 2892 A2 for example at $400 or so from supply houses), toot can probably make their movements for $200 or so each leaving a huge profit when putting them in run of the mill $3000+ toots or supplying them to outsiders for 3X or 4X their production cost. The new toot movement has a free sprung (Breguet type) silicon-hairspring, full balance bridge, 70 hour power reserve, and decent decoration. In reality it is probably about as good as a rlx 3135 after they get it fully de-bugged. Imho, if they had introduced this movement as an 'all new!!' rlx movement it would have all the rlx groupies in a tizzy claiming it is the greatest wrist watch movement ever made. Because it has tooter stamped on it, this movement has to be second tier and will never be as good as a rlx movement because of the pecking order. For Breitling and Chanel, it can be the finest movement of them all. Advertising creates a reality of its own in the world of watches.

Could be. https://forums.watchuseek.com/f23/tudor-movement-5003577.html 　 https://watchesbysjx.com/2019/03/chanel-j12-manufacture-movement-kenissi.html 　 https://watchesbysjx.com/2019/01/chanel-kenissi-tudor-rolex.html Breit in a toot: https://watchesbysjx.com/2017/03/all-you-need-to-know-about-the-tudor-mt5813-chronograph-movement.html