RedSoxMan

The 029m is what both of these factories should be shooting for at this point -- accuracy and overall fit and finish. Both factory's versions fall short... H Factory -- at least fix your dial (size of numbers and semi gloss finish) and CG. I can live with the 120 clicks, I guess... N Factory -- polish the CP, superlume the dial and make sure the crystal is on par with the H Factory. I sincerely hope there are V2's of each -- H and N -- addressing their respective issues.

You say the dials are the same? Here's the comparison of all three (from the other comparison on RWG)... H-Factory on the Left, N-Factory in the Middle, Gen on the Right. The thing that stand out to me the most is how thin the "6" is on the H-Factory versus the Gen. The Noob looks very close. The dial is a big thing to me, probably why I only own Frankens with Gen dials at this point... However, the Noob suffers from a few things, too, which have been reviewed over and over again... brushed CP, crystal inconsistency, lume not as strong, etc. Right now, I won't buy either one. If either factory ups their game and fixes these issues, I'll buy from that factory. If the H-Factory fixed their dial, I'd probably go that direction -- even with the other flaws (bezel and CG). Draw your own conclusions.

+1 Agreed 100%. That H bezel just looks wrong... Plus, the H-Factory's dial sucks, except for the lume... This is a no-brainer, IMO.

To me, the accuracy of the dial and case are paramount in a rep... It's not about "getting spotted" by someone on the street -- it's about what I personally notice and care about. The Noob gets these two critical aspects more right than the H-Factory. The H-Factory is for someone who doesn't care as much for side-by-side accuracy, and just wants a nice hunk of metal on their wrist... that glows nicely, I guess... BTW, despite the reports about the N-Factory movement, the factory that has consistently had the movement issues is the H-Factory -- not the Noob... Almost half (or more) of the H-Factory 6497-1's failed (there was a poll about it a while ago... personally, most of mine did.) And I doubt we'll see the 21.6 movements again, they haven't been in a new Pam rep for three years. I don't have a horse in the race between N and H Factory.... All I care about it accuracy. I recently ordered the Noob 243 from Puretime, but thanks to an a foolish RWI member who blew up Puretime's PayPal account by writing "Puretime Watches/Pam 243" in the subject, Angus cancelled the order and shut down his PP for good... Lots of people lost their orders thanks to this member... Get the version you want... But, I appreciate accuracy -- and I like to push these factories to do the best job they can on these.

The "6" and the "12" on the H-Factory dial look almost comically too thin -- versus the Gen and N-Factory dials...

No, it's not unreasonable... But, I suspect he's busy and doesn't make time for "managing the feelings" of his customers.... And like I said, I believe you're in the right. But, what I'm also saying is that it's better for you, IMO, to just 1) fix the problem, which he's willing to do; and 2) move forward with your life. What does an insincere apology from a guy over the internet really mean, anyway? The bottom line is whether he delivered the product you ordered or not. Why not just forget about it; you're the one whose losing time and energy at this point.

You're in the right... But... I also find it's better to not have a contentious "give me service" attitude with people, in general, if you want good results. Bottom line: he delivered the strap you ordered. It was a pain to have to go get it. But, you did get what you ordered. He's not a crook. When you expressed you had an issue with the strap keeper, he offered to refund or switch it for you, right? So, not sure why you prodded him with "there's something wrong here" as though he was "up to something" or had a "personal issue" with you. Why bother? Why not take him up on his offer to make it right, and move on rather than engaging with him? And now you've created a critical thread about him... IMO, life is too short to put out this much energy on something that isn't a big deal. He's an honest business man, who was at worst guilty of not paying enough attention to the multiple e-mails he was sent by you. BTW, I've bought straps from him over the years, and I've always had a good experience with him. I'd just move forward.

That's the great thing about a good rep like this... Even if you have a Gen Pam or two, you can wear this one as a "daily beater" and not worry so much... Which is a nice thing. It could benefit from some subtle mods (H-Factory Crystal, H-Factory CG w/ Noob Lever, possible re-finishing of C...) but we're splitting hairs, it really doesn't need them. Enjoy it.

Is the new "Classified Section" gone now? (If so, good: I prefer the original trade section...)

Specs: Pam 003 Pre A -- Gen 003 Tritium Dial, ETA Swiss 6497-1, Swiss H3 CP (refinished), Jakob CB, Sead A-F CG, DSN "Newborn" Pre-A Crown (w/ "O" Tube), H-Factory Sapphire, H-Factory Case (most accurate case for Pre-A projects). This is the first version of what later became the 113 -- very rare. Pam 114 -- Gen 114 Dial, Gen Hands, Gen 114 Caseback, Swiss H3 CP (refinished), Kuvarsit 6497 Plat-Plated Movement, N-Factory Case, H-Factory Crystal, N-Factory Crown, N-Factory CG

The 188H has some inaccuracies, like the roller lever (shouldn't be on an H Series) -- versus the 251K which is uber accurate.

The 253 wears smaller than the Luminor Cased 44mm Pams (like the 111).

Check this one out, looks just like the Gen: http://repgeek.com/showthread.php?t=146157

I beg to differ -- I'd rather have an educated/informed critique of a rep, and have all the information in terms of flaws, so I can make a personal decision as to what bugs me as an individual. If a half-decent rep come out with some flaws, and everyone just says "great" and smiles and thanks the rep factories, we'll be stuck in mediocrity -- and the watches (and hobby) won't evolve. These forums are nothing if they aren't about the open exchange of information. As for Frankens and "builds" -- I think the time is better than ever with Pams (if you really appreciate accuracy and subtlety...)

I think it's human nature to romanticize our memories from the past... This hobby is stronger and better than ever. Pam builds -- vintage, pre-v and contemporary -- are now at an incredible place in terms of accuracy. There are more creative, innovative strap-makers. Having different forums just gives hobbyists options, nothing wrong with that. I don't miss the old days at all.

It's too bad they can't get this aspect of producing these Asian 7750's right... They've gone 95% of the way with the production and design, as the movements are fairly good. They just need proper lubrication and sterile cleanliness... But, there's no financial incentive to get this part of it right.

Looks good -- but I'd flatten/flush that CG pin (looks a bit too protruded and rounded...) RSM

Nice comparison -- thx. This re-affirms my belief that the best 111j incorporates the parts from the new 177l, as described by babola (the colorles AR crystal, the superlumed hands and the backplate with the more intense lume and correct "white" color)... You create a hybrid of the two, a "bastard" watch of sorts: http://www.wrist-check.com/showthread.php?9430-Review-111J-from-Noob-factory-vs-177L-from-Hublot-maker

Shaaaaaaaady.

As a rule of thumb, it is best to AVOID winding automatic watches -- particularly ones with Asian movements. The gears tend to be made of cheap metal, and strip easily. This could be the case with yours. Autos have a rotor, and a gentle shake is usually all it takes to get the watch underway. Good luck.

This is the best of the big forums -- the most knowledgeable group. Agreed, though, if you think it's dead here -- contribute yourself. If you're into Pams and vintage projects -- and like to be around knowledgeable people like RWG -- you may want to check this place out, too: wrist-check.com

Holy yikes. These are all reps? If so, the best collection of rep Pams I've seen. incredible attention to the details of each model. All the CG's looks good, crowns, dates/cylops/dials/crystals... Incredible blend of stuff. BTW, I didn't see the Arktos 186... was it removed? Or am I just blind?

"Hack" means to pull out crown so that watch ceases movement--this way, one could preserve their power reserve overnight. However, this only works on a "hack" movement, obviously... A little shake is all that it take for my automatics to get rolling. And sometimes they get left unused for a long period of time. Mostly, they're either Swiss ETA or ETA Clone movements, however. Not sure about the cheapo 21J's...