TJGladeRaider

While these are interesting arguments, I cannot help but wonder how you determined that there is no "watch cartel," especially since the government, using a legion of professional investigators with subpoena power and an unlimited budget came to the exact opposite conclusion. The problem that you are overlooking is the fact that it is the manufacturers, not the market, commanding the prices. The reason that this is a problem is that we have a law against it - the Sherman Anti-Trust Act. Perhaps this introduction to the situation from my investigative web site will help clarify things. On October 19, 1954, the United States filed an anti-trust complaint in the United States District Court, Southern District of New York, under Section 1 of the Sherman Act, 15 U.S.C. § 1, alleging a wide-ranging conspiracy between Swiss and United States watch companies to fix prices, terms, and conditions of the sale of watches and watch parts, restrict the manufacturing of watches and watch parts in the United States, and control the export of watches and watch parts into the United States. The complaint named more than twenty defendants, including Rolex's predecessor ­ the American Rolex Watch Corporation. On March 9, 1960, the United States, and eleven of the defendants named in the complaint (all of whom were United States importers of Swiss watches or watch parts), including the American Rolex Watch Corporation, entered into the Final Judgment. The purpose of the Final Judgment was to prevent the defendant importers from engaging in certain collusive and unilateral conduct that was causing significant competitive harm at the time the Final Judgment was entered. Section VI.C of the Final Judgment states, in relevant part, that each defendant importer "is enjoined from. . . restricting or controlling the use by any person in the United States of watch parts or watchmaking machines purchased from" any defendant importer named in the suit, and Section VI.H of the Final Judgment states that each defendant importer "is enjoined from . . . entering into any agreement or understanding with any reseller of watches, watch parts or watchmaking machines to fix or control the markup or the maximum or minimum price at which, the terms or conditions on which, or the customers to whom any such product may be resold." Most recently, the government has determined that since 1996, Rolex has required watchmakers to agree to adhere to Rolex's Policy Statement which included certain provisions that the government has alleged to violate the Final Judgment. Specifically: a. One of the provisions in Rolex's Policy Statement, under the heading "Rolex Trademarks and Goodwill," states: "Parts may not be used in any watch that has non-Rolex parts or accessories (such as generic dials, bezels, crystals or bracelets)." This restriction on the ability of watchmakers to use parts purchased from Rolex to repair Rolex watches that have non-Rolex parts or accessories violates Section VI.C of the Final Judgment by limiting the use by watchmakers of the watch parts purchased from Rolex. b. Another provision in Rolex's Policy Statement, under the heading "Terms of Sale," states: "Spare parts are sold for end use by the purchaser only. Spare parts may not be resold under any circumstances." This restriction on the ability to resell parts violates both Section VI.H of the Final Judgment by limiting the circumstances under which watch parts may be resold, and Section VI.C of the Final Judgment by limiting a watchmaker's use of the watch parts it purchases from Rolex. c. A third provision in Rolex's Policy Statement, under the heading "General Policies," states: "To the extent that charges for spare parts are itemized, the markup shall not exceed fifty percent (50%)." This maximum pricing restriction violates Section VI.H of the Final Judgment by fixing the maximum markup that watchmakers can charge (when itemizing) for watch parts when performing repairs. Anyway, everyone is entitled to their opinions, and I certainly respect yours. Bill

True, but most of the other statements I would wish to make don't look right on my wrist. Bill

In light of all the recent rhetoric regarding the usage of the word "perfect" as it relates to certain replicas by some of our most trusted dealers, and keeping in mind that most of the most trusted dealers that we have here do not speak English as their natural language, I do not think criticism is warranted. It's not for me to speak for anyone but myself, but I don't see his use of the word "perfect" as an effort to convince me that these watches are literally perfect -- maybe there is someone on this board who believes in the existence of such a thing, but it certainly is not me, I don't think it's any of you that I know, and the suggestion that anyone is using the word in an effort to deceive is insulting to our intelligence, and theirs. In trying to be fair, I think we all would readily acknowledge that Eddie Lee has been using the word "Best" to describe his Subs and SD's for some time now. If a dealer were to take a comparable product, and then have it properly service, timed and waterproofed, I can see why he would choose to call it something better than "Best," especially if he was explicitly offering a replacement waterproof guarantee. I have to ask myself, assuming I could manage to learn to speak Chinese at all, "How long would it take for me to master the distinction between various shades of meaning?" So I postulate this question to any English speaking person who would be critical of our dealer's choice of words as being tantamount to fraud, "What word would you use . . . in Chinese?" I have never bought a watch of any kind from Andrew, but I have read enough reviews to know that his reputation is excellent, and I have no doubt whatsoever that the watches he is selling as "serviced" have, in fact, been serviced and it seems a no-brainer to me that his claim that they used imported Swiss lubricants is true. If they are actually going to tear down the movements and guarantee their work, why wouldn't they use the proper lubricants? If, as others have reported and I suspect, Andrew is selling a serviced version of the TW Best I bought from Eddie Lee, it has to be one very nice piece and it may very well be as nice as the serviced watches I have boought thru Joshua. Considering the completely crooked nature of most of the rep industry, I think the fact that dealers like him (and Joshua before him) are doing everything they can do to make the best possible product available at a reasonable price is commendable. If they want to call these things "Pope perfect," that's just fine by me. Bill

I think most of us are honest, law abiding people, yet we are looking at a situation where gen manufacturers are having their trademarks blatantly infringed upon in violation of laws that most of us probably support, and we choose to buy these things. This is a very curious and fascinating subject for me. To me, and speaking just for me, I would never pass off a rep as a gen - that's not what this is about for me, and the exact opposite in fact. I buy these things as a sort of social/political statement, and the point I feel that they make is that the manufacturers of the gens are engaged in a grand, collossal, fraud. I wear a replica as evidence that the gen is a ripoff, an example of a carefully orchestrated scam perpetrated by the watch cartels (the government's term, not mine) who have manipulated the marketplace thru an illegal system of price controls. I say, "Look at this Pam 28 with it's 2892 movement and sapphire crystal and tell me why the gen cost fiteen or twenty times what I paid for this?" If someone could say that the gen has a real Swiss movement, the gen is waterproof, or the gen keeps better time, then they would have a legitimate defense, but virtually indistinguishable differences in crown guard or crown thickness are no justification for the price difference. The fact is, the gens are better watches - I do not dispute that - but the difference is more like twenty percent than two thousand percent. The rest is blue sky, empty marketing hype and price controls - a fraud that I like to see exposed. Why do you buy these things? Bill

I take it that you bought Joshua's "perfect" SD and you like it. I like mine too - I have a couple of them and the one I am wearing at the moment has a black genuine stingray band with a stainless steel deployment clasp. This is one of my consistent favorites - I cannot say that I have just one favorite as that tends to change from week to week. This particular SD is always in the top three. Bill

It looks like a nice watch, but you should compare the CGs to the "perfect" Sub Joshua is selling - Joshua's are milled down and the case is recontoured too. I can tell mine with my eyes closed just by the fel of the case and I have a few subs. Bill

Be aware that it isn't simple. The 2893 is not the same size as the 2836 and the people I have talked toi about this have not been able to do it for me. Bill

"Waste" $200? I think you are missing the point, but I think that is understandable if you're not a lawyer or a cop. By, "deliberate," he is suggesting that the whole thing was deliberate. Someone bought a watch and, unlike the anonymous complaint" that you reference provided authorities with all the evidence they need to pursue EL without making it clear that this was set up. If it was a set up, this would be smart because it allows law enforcement to explain having all the available evidence, while making it look like the guy who did it was just stupid - thereby leaving him clear to snag some more dealers. The facts certainly do not prove it was a set up from the start, but it is a possibility to be considered - especially since common sense says that investigators must be aware of these lists. Bill

Funny you should mention that Ken - your post mirrors my e-mail to EL. I think these forums should have a system whereby dealers report odd situations to one of the admin people. Chances are, if someone is working a dealer, they are also working the other dealers, which would not be clear to any individual dealer, but would be OBVIOUS to someone monitoring reports. For example, if three dealers report that a new buyer named ABCDE has asked for product return information, that would be a very red flag indeed. Bill

Prognostication is an inexact undertaking at best, but I'll share my predictions since you asked. I think the Guangzhou watchworks folks will continue to produce better and better product until the politics are such that China shuts it all down - and when they do, it will shut down because no government that I know of gets things done like the Chinese. To put this in perspective, I think we are in the same situation as we were in a few years ago when we were all having a wonderful time with Napster, WinMX, etc downloading all the music we wanted Peer-to-Peer. One day, we all went to sign on and it was over - the difference is, nobody we liked a lot got shot. That's my only real concern - I can take the replica thing or leave it, but I don't want to see anyone we do business with running afoul of the Chinese justice system (oxymoron). Bill

I use Brasso - but DO NOT use a power buffer. Brasso on a cotton ball will do the job in less than thirty minutes. Just rub hard in a circular motion and it will look brand new when you are done. Bill

Health problems? I think her reason for not being on top of things is a bit more "happy news" than that, but since nobody has announced anything, it's not my place. Ms. King is not going to screw you on the deal. Bill

Have a look I like natural shark, black shark and black stingray the best Bill

What I would like to know is, "How can you tell?" I can tell the difference between the ETA 2836 and the Asian autos I have seen easy enogh, same with the Valjoux vs Asian copy (I think), but I have no earthly clue how to know whether the Unitas handwounds are genuine swiss, or an Asian copy. With those, I depend on the Dealers I buy from, but one of the Dealers I buy from tells me that they accept the manufacturer's word s they wouldn't know the difference themselves. What is a true mystery to me is the lack of an Asian copy of the Rolex movement. Considering the fact that the reps are getting so good that a good copy movement would set the secondary market on its ear, I am surprised nobody has made that yet. Can anyone clarify - offer learned comment? Bill

Can you give me a link to the new gen - I like the look of that piece. Bill

If you check past posts, you will find that I argued precisely that same point. In fact, if you find the right post about SD's, you will find that some nutcase, who probably had a few too many beers that evening (or mebbe it was bourbon) made the statement that if someone reading his review of the watch he bought, and bought that particular SD from the same dealer he got his from, and then found it was not exactly what he said it was, he'd buy it from them at the purchase price. LOL Bill

A healthy dose of skepticism -- You're going to be just fine! You are quite correct, the sites you see all over the net that profess to be consumer oriented are generally bogus. The difference you will find here is, YOU can post, YOU can say whatever you like, and YOU will find yourself fielding the heat of stinging remarks in the event you get stupid - and the most common stupid is, "OMG, I have been ripped off, I sent my money to DEALER_ABC two weeks ago and I haven't got a watch yet." One clue - go to the various consumer sites and see if you find open conversation critical of the chosen dealers. Check here for example, identify a dealer who appears to be "In," and then see if anyone says anything bad about them - you will find that every dealer has some complaints. On the scam sites, you will find a far different relationship. Also, on a site like this, you will soon gat a feel for people's very, VERY different personalities. You will see pictures posted that are obviously the poster's real watch on their real wrists, or in some other situation that is obviously something they took. You will see posts of problems, where the same people, over and over and over take their time to try and help. Just read a while, look at pics, read reviews and shop for a DEALER. Once you have made a decision as to which Dealer you want to try, buy something from them and be patient for a few weeks until your watch arrives. This place is legit. Bill

Here is the watch I got from Josh, along with pics of the water drop test. He adamantly insists it is sapphire, and the water drop sure seems to go along witrh that. I wonder if Joshua will get an apology from he that declared that none of these crystals are sapphire. Sorry for the quality of the pics - no time to set up the light box. Bill

All I can tell you is the score so far: TJGladeRaider = 100+ US Customs = 0 When Joshua gets his true 45mm PO done, I am gonna risk it again too! LOL Bill

Wow, am I glad you are here. Not just everyone would proclaim that all the dealers advertising sapphire crystals on these watches are lying, and all the buyers who say they have verified theirs are fools. Since the only way anyone could actually be able to make such a statement would be to have bought a sample of them all, and nobody but a fookwit idiot would make such a statement unable to support it, I must commend you on your incredible investment on our behalf. Naturally, this bunch of slimedog thieves we deal with will try to impugn your credibility and suggest that you are such a fookwit idiot so please post pictures -- I am sure I speak for many of us when I tell you that I am standing by to be amazed. As I am beginning to have a modest little collection of my own, perhaps you could give me a few pointers so I too could be able to tell whether my other crystals are sapphire - absent your guidance and inspiration, I actually believed that Joshua had been honest with me on my Fiddy and the rest of this junk, and the way a drop of water beads up on front and back, like on a freshly waxed car, plumb confused me. I guess I'll just have to send them all back. Bill

Just to clarify - if some of these don't have sapphire, mine definitely does. I would think that having that much domed mineral glass on a wrist would be asking for trouble. Bill

I just got what appears to be that identical watch from Joshua - about like a wall clock with a belt! Awesome watch though. Bill

Today, I got a package from Verbal Kint - I bought his MBW. It was a fascinating experience. Sitting at my dining room table, I tore open the envelope - very bad idea. It turned out to be one of those padded envelopes that are packed with clothes dryer dust or something. What a mess. Inside, I found a mummy of wrapped tape - I unwrapped, and unwrapped and unwrapped . . . realizing that I should have taken pictures of this and regretting that I did not. Finally, I exposed what appeared to be a washcloth. Inside the washcloth, I found a smaller mummy of wrapped electrical tape - I unwrapped, and unwrapped and unwrapped and unwrapped and unwrapped . . . yes indeed, why didn't I get some pics. Inside, I found paper towels wrapped round a watch. What an amazing way to defeat Customs inspectors!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL VERY nice watch - thanks Robi. Bill