horologist

After nearly 12 years on this forum I feel like a noob with this sort of question. I am trying to buy a new PaneraiI with the crown locking lever /hatch (whatever it is) of decent quality for a family member that had been asking me for quite some time! Not really my cup of tea as I know nothing about them. Most of the dealers seem to only have the automatic one! Has anyone recently purchased a manual version (6497) with the see through back preferably on a rubber strap or leather? If so please let me know which recommended dealer here should I try to bother? thanks for any information

I tried to order a watch through some of our trusted dealers whom I have dealt with in the past , who are also well aware of my contact details! Just about every model I asked about was sold out! I was then informed that there has been a raid on the factories and have been shut down! I was shell shocked!! Has anyone else heard about this?

This is not an embarrassment at ALL by any stretch of the imagination!!!!!! I myself struggled in the early days with the amount of mainsprings that I have damaged because either I fed them in the wrong way or my fingers were not yet upto it. It is a skill which I took a long time to cope with at the cost of many mainsprings. They can be tricky to orientate which is where I think most of the problem with installation comes from. That is why there is also special tool made for installing them in. In fact, according to this professional watchmaker on the watch repair channel, he does not encourage it either!!!!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcI3X7oovbc After I had acquired a way of installing one in by hand, I got worse when arthritis hit me and in your case having Carpel Tunnel can totally cripple your hand dexterity at many levels of watch repair and not just with mainspring installation!!!! I usually take strong painkillers for my fingers if I need to install one in by hand as I know that as soon as I get to the end, my fingers will give way!!!! Thank you for sharing with us your story and NO we are far too broad minded group of people here to be judgmental of this!!!! You are with the elite of elite when it comes to our interests!!!! Good Luck!!!

if you have a premade template from a soft solid object when you press in the dummy dial, the holes will be a carbon copy of when you position in your new dial feet for the intended dial to sit on orthogonal to the plane of the dial! This way you will get to press it down firmly and get it dead straight! Machining a shallow indent under your dial helps a lot but must also be flush otherwise you will experience the resulting feet to be offline! there should be no issues with the dial spacer as everything would then be level and straight

Can I suggest!! I have had my pain and grief with this very problem for some 15 years!!!! Different permutations and combinations of trials were ok until fatigue settled in on upon the dial with the many times of setting the time in pulling out the stem. I found that the best remedy that worked for me was to epoxy (strongest possible epoxy you can find) dial feet with a broader bases. This will minimize your shearing forces upon the dial lateral movement when setting the time in addition to a good case ring and tightly fastened screws. Ok, all seems easy but you may need to find a soft object where you can press in a dud dial with feet still on the back for the dial positioning to be pressed into. I bought a florists sponge and pressed in the dummy dial with some dabbled ink on the bottom of the dial feet, marking out the positioning of the dial feet. I also marked the position of the center of the stem with a fine pen for better centering. While leaving the dial still in place I poked a round tooth pick into the center of the dial opening for the hour wheel and positioned another tightly into the date window, giving an accurate stencil of where to position the new dial without feet. I then gently pulled off the dial keeping the toothpicks still in place and firmly pushed them in further to avoid any lateral movement, keeping them perfectly orthogonal to the sponge. Repositioning the dummy dial for a final check may help. I then positioned the new dial feet in the marked positions with their bases facing up and dabbed some 50kg strength epoxy on them,. I then gently placed the new dial with cropped dial feet (also nicely clean sanded back ) onto the sponge base while slowly feeding it through the toothpicks and then pressed down making sure it lined up with the stem centre marked with the fine pen. Left it for some 40 hours and it was dead straight centered. Catch is ; You need the right brass feet with wider bases. I bought mine from Walter (Carbinet) on ebay some years ago and they were the only ones that worked. The Bergeon dial feet bases that are too thin and will not work as well!!!!! You may also need to sand the base down so that it is as flush with the dial back as possible. You may also need to sand down the tips a bit to tailor them for the movement hole to clamp the movement clamps. You will find that you may also have to mark out on the back of the new dial where to make a small recess with a broches to accommodate the new bases of the dial feet you are going to epoxy . Most importantly. DO NOT RUSH !!!! BE Patient!!!!! it sounds long winded but the dial came out as strong as new!!!!! I have removed it from my movement several times when doing repairs to the movement and servicing and feet are still holding. Forget your dial dots and double sided tape. Good for Quartz throw aways but not for something that has the type of tension as these sturdy replicas!!!! Lastly, Good LUCK!!!!!

Thanks guys!!! Very inspiring to read your input!!! I do agree that it is expensive junk, but that is the law of demand and supply!!! With marketing, if you cannot sell, then try to sell by raising the prices and restrict supply at the same time, then we all rush to the sales before they keep rising!!! Common psychological reaction!!! Anachronistic ? Yes, that too!!! it is an incurable disease I have!!! Keeps this Swiss industry afloat!!!

Got out my eta 2824-2 for a total disassembly until I dropped my escape wheel on the floor somewhere in the abyss! By the time I found it, it was crushed by someone in the household as it must have been stepped on , possibly even me?😒 now these are near impossible to replace as the parts policy we all know! Don’t want to buy generic as I agree with Automatico that when you mix generics with genuine you can get more problems! Been there and done that! for those of you with more experience, if I were to get lucky and find a genuine one for sale, am I out of trouble or do I also need to buy a matching pallet for it as the stones may be slightly off or not work at all? 🙄

Looking at the data of the movement , the stem height centre is 0.25 mm off the stem height of the 2738, so I would be reluctant to buy this movement unless you already have one to try out ! As for the thickness of the movement itself , it seems to be within the range of one that will not rub against the inside of case back! If you have a dud dial with no feet, try to set it onto your movement and try out the hands first to see if there is any clearance between them so you know that the posts are long enough to accept them! Take into consideration that your DWO will play a part to this verdict! If this step is successful, I would insert the stem without the crown and try to position it in the case to see if the stem is centred in the case opening! If so, then bingo you are on a roll! I always kept away from the 28xx pain in the a$5 series for these builds but this one seems to be an earlier version so you might be lucky! Good luck !

you mean the eta 2789? this is the same movement as the 2783 but with the addition of the day wheel which is what I originally tried because of the extra height of the hour wheel, minute and seconds post! Upon initial planning and brainstorm assembly with a dummy dial, I noticed that the rotor was rubbing the case back! I was thinking of sanding it down to resolve this problem but the play in the jewel would always rub against the inside of case back! My research at the time from records was that it was 0.15mm thicker than the original Rolex movement that came with the watch! How do I remember? Because I still have my notes from when i attempted the build in case I were to build another but then discovered the world of replicas! I did not have a problem using the 2783. I just had to play around with the date wheel which I sanded down to adhere the right date wheel ( from a far wreck) for the right window of the dial, it was so long ago but somehow the for caliber datewheel saved the day as it just missed the date window of the dial! keep away from the 2824-2! It will give you problems! Also it would not look right for this vintage of watch and will be a dead give away that it is a replica It is not just the stem alignment isssue but also the spacer between the DWO and the seconds wheel will not give you enough latitude for the hands! Maybe someone more cleverer than me can suggest what I may have done wrong but it did not work! Good luck!

Long before I discovered this forum or the replica world of watches, I made my own replica or Franken as they are known here using this very same model. I recall purchasing a case kit with a nice navy blue dial from Andy Tolley ( aka timeman) back in August 2002 and also a bracelet for just under $AUS365. He had lots of great deals in both watches and parts!!! Miss him so much!!!!!! I had both eta 2824-2 and the eta 2783, but opted for the 2783 as it was a 21000 beat as opposed to the 28000 beat in the 2824-2, which closely mimicked the 1575 genuine. The construction was very simple using the 2783 as the stem was in perfect position with the aperture of the case opening whereas with the 2824-2 movement involved a lot of messing around with spacers and getting the positioning right and the hand positioning. It was also a higher beating movement that would have given away that something was not right to the trained eye and to me. The ebauche of the 2783 had a lot more meat on it for me to position the original dial feet of the dial to preserve the dial feet in the event I ever did come across a genuine Rolex module for me to assemble a genuine rolex watch! I positioned the dial exactly on the movement and marked out where the dial feet were to be pressed in. I had a jeweller to drill holes in those exact locations for the dial to be friction fitted without having to use dial dots, glue or any other temporary solution. I recall getting a datewheel from an old FHF movement which I do not recall the caliber and sanded it down enough to lower the thickness for it to be glued onto the 2783 datewheel (for which I did the same to bring down the thickness of it also, so that it would not stick up too high.) I actually got the datewheel ia hair thinner so it would not interefere with the dial upon flicking at midnight.. FYI the dial feet from the 2824-2 are slightly different in position from the 2783 which even my watchmaker was unaware of. There was no need for any case ring or any other adjustments because it was an almost perfect fit with just case clamps. I was so proud of it that it was indistinguishable from the real McCoy unlike some of the best replicas that always have a flaw that give them away to those with a trained eye for these knit picks. I wore it for 3 years without a problem and it gave me a lot of pleasure, until I foolishly sold it for a genuine Tudor that I also no longer have. The guy I sold it to who is a real estate salesman, still wears it today , accompanied with a nice late model Porsche and is often seen wearing suits that are worth far more then my ex watch. My opinion and my opinion only, is the 2783 is a better and more robust module that the next generation 2824-2 as it has never been cloned. Also you can find lots of them for a song and plenty of spares from most unknown watches ranging from Tudor to Bentley and non name brands such as Felicia and vintage Tesco timepieces.

Ditto!! Also parts do not mesh either as they are not really in line with the genuine! I have had this problem with the seconds wheel, they Keyless works and the winding stems! On one of my clones, the train wheel bridge was not level in comparison to one from the genuine! There seemed to be side shake where the seconds was loose and all along I thought it was something that I had done wrong upon mounting it! It almost destroyed any watchmaking skills that I had gained! Very dangerous for learning experiences as well as being duds!

I have two springs of different sizes that I can send you to try out and see which one fits! These little beasts are a kick in the groin to remove, replace and to buy from anywhere! I even checked on eBay and no go!!! Forget ofrei unless you want to order 100 of them to make it economically viable! I got rid of any eta with ( novodiac springs a long time ago and any remaining ones I have are with the double cone incabloc with the gate which are incomparable to these horrible things that can cost you the service time of another movement! Also be easy with them as they can easily break! I made a tool from a plastic chup a chup lollipop stick which works better than the Bergeron tool which in my opinion is a scam!! FYI you would not want to go anywhere near the old seiko that had these before my time and those horrible micro horse shoe Springs that made every seiko movement a disposable as it was cheaper to buy a new movement! My old watchmaker Robbie never serviced them as he wood buy the modules in bulk keeping them in his big cigarette cartons and just replace them for the client and the client t(ought he serviced them! It was cheaper for both customer and him!

This is a great thread! I had been looking for the pros and cons on this subject for months! Somehow I cannot always post or respond on this site ( mystery to me 😲) . Automatico you have done it all with a couple of links! Thanks a million, it has opened up an Aladdins cave of posts for me! Thanks also to Timelord for bringing up the subject! I have never used epilame on the pallets and so far my very first movement I serviced runs like a charm! I too have learnt a lot, mainly thanks to the existence of this forum as one can post and not be afraid of the responses you get! Archer’s contributions are also a Godsend to the omega forum, but no way you can post on that forum like we can post and ask here, as he can destroy your total confidence In ever wanting to post again! thanks again guys,!!

Totally agree !!!!!!!!!!!!! Here is my F52011 , It has the crown guards reshaped and a genuine crown. I had a nato strap but felt more comfortable with the strap I have now. Noob.jfif When I had it pressure tested, it passed the 200 meter line. I don't blame Timelord for selling off his genuine if he has exactly the same to enjoy!!! Good family man, thinking of his family first Even worse is the new 116610 with the fat case which to me represents nothing more than a cheap Invicta or a Parnis. Maybe they are made in the same factory as the replicas as they even have them in 904L. I guess that these 16610 versions are now out of production. I do agree that Yuki also had a good case kit as well. When I last checked, they were discontinued. I could never work out how the case ring worked?? Collectors items in my opinion Noob.jfif

Great link! Under the surface it sort of reminds me of the Seiko with the pall levers. The automatic works seems a bit of a mess, but when comparing with the odds and the gods against it, there isn’t much of a choice left! What attracted me was that it is “supposedly Swiss made”, has the Incabolc style setting in place of the horrible diashock spring on the eta and hopefully that spares would be more readily available than eta parts,, ! Who knows? I would most likely take a gamble on this one Instead of those eta junk clones that come from the far south or (north) which have given me nothing but grief and to my pocket! Maybe this seems too good to be true. Only time will tell,

While I was checking my emails, eBay sent me a list of possible purchase interests. I found item number 174253614078 from a German seller quite interesting as it is a ronda R150 claiming to be Swiss made replacement for eta 2824-2. It looked appealing as it seems to have the incabloc set up in place of the 3 prong spring on the balance! Hopefully this may be the answer to avoiding those awful clones made in Far East sweat shops. My interest in this is if spare parts are easier to obtain than eta and if an equivalent for eta 2836-2 is available from their selections. Hope this is of some help!

Thanks R. I have never experienced this issue before with any of my previous timepieces! Definitely gives me new insight to a different diagnosis to what I had been contemplating! I checked the the turning of the crown and it seemed to be half and half so this is a close call! As for telling the time, it is running well for a few hours until it decides to freeze the hour and minute hand! I have noticed that the day wheel flipper intermediate wheel post seems to be protruding and would go for your suggestion that something in that area is the issue! Since it does not quick set, there must be something causing a problem from there! What it is ,I am still clutching my straws. As for a replacement part issue, then we are back to the NPFU dilemma just like with getting Genuine Rolex Parts

thanks for your input! They were the first parts I looked at when I stripped it apart which is why I am finding it a mystery! The other thing I could possibly brainstorm is the tension on calander works! Just clutching my straws!

This topic is the very heart and soul of why most of us ( if not all of us ) belong to a forum such as this and why such a forum exists! Needless to say,I agree with everything said!!! Do I prefer a replica or a genuine? If the parts issue and price did not matter, I personally think that they are both performers made of the same material where one has been given more quality control over the other. The same cake baked by different chefs! Since I have downsized tremendously because of the parts issue and exchange rate have become unfavourable, I only own two genuine and three replicas! I do not see one as a diamond and the other as a zirconia! I personally prefer the eta module over the Rolex caliber did simplicity and robustness! Less moving parts! I just hate the seconds pin post and the jewel under tension just under the calendar works! I guess what gives Rolex that unique feature is the oyster case and that is immediately recognised amongst others having an eye for timepieces very much like the old VW beetle in a traffic of other cars! It is that oyster style and design no matter what label is on the dial where Rolex is more of a noun rather than a brand name! The same is true of the thermos flask which is really the brand name rather than the bottle that it represents, but we still refer to these types of bottles as thermos flasks! sadly if is not just Rolex that has treated its patrons this way! Omega have done the same and so too others will follow! To be honest I am also disappointed with the eta movement because of parts Issue as I have three duds ( a genuine and two clones) with stuffed up hair springs which most watchmakers I know hate replacing them from the bridge because of how the stud is mount3d as opposed to screwed in place! I attempt3d it myself and caused more damage! Great comment!!! I could not have put it better myself! It fairly much summarises real life embedded in a fake world of the image it deceives when seeing how many have Life time mortgages, cars in high finance from many moons ago and a chain of debts just to tell Mr. Jones next door “look at me”

My only genuine eta that I had serviced professionally before I began attempting them myself has just pulled a strange stunt! It stopped at 4.23 On Saturday pm, but the seconds hand keeps sweeping away! Pulled out he crown to see if it could have been a problem with motion work Such as the hour wheel and minute wheel But all seemed good as I could move all the hands over the 12 hour revolution! Yesterday it stopped again and considered doing a thorough investigation by removing dial and seeing the hour and minute wheel etc to see if all the teeth are ok and all seemed to be meshing well! Cased it all up again and same problem! Anyone had a similar experience??? please throw in your theories, was thinking of replacing it with a clone as that is all that is available at an affordable price! Argggggggg what did I say?? No fear! thanks guys!!

This has been an interesting and very informative thread! I guess that from the information that is available, timepieces made circa 1963 are either a hit or a miss as to which had radium and which had tritium! Some had a small “T” on the very bottom of the dial next to “Swiss“to indicate tritium, but not all dials were marked, so you need to take extreme care when decasing on of these! Then again microscopic dust from the Radium lume depositing anywhere to your movement and contaminating your equipment is even more off a concern!

Good one! Thanks for posting this link! I recall reading it recently, but somehow I could not find it in my browser history, Just goes to show that even watchmaking has its health hazards no different from those working in asbestos removal or those working in mines! Imagine paying out of your teeth for a James Bond Rolex, Milsub, or comex in the 4 or 5 digit price tag and have something very nasty brewing inside? This post has killed my buzz as I have a 1970 mint condition presidential being one of my grail watches, but now I am not so sure if I am still in love with it! Feels like My high school sweetheart has just cuckolded me,!

That is a damn good question which I notice is very overlooked amongst this trade and hobby!!!!! I am glad someone has asked this because my best and most honest watchmaker died from Lung cancer at the age of 51 and his widow always blamed it on radium because when he was an apprentice, his mission was to scrape off radium off dials back in the late 1970s early 1980-s. He did it daily and when he worked for the same local watch service house, he was given the task for doing this amongst other watchmakers. Other watchmakers always got him to open old pocket watches and pre war watches that were full of radium. He was always exposed to radium dust for some 15 years. He also worked on those old German bedside clocks which were cased in a fancy glass and were wound from the back. Horrible things in my opinion!!!!. Yes I agree that they can be safe as long as they are sealed, but these things are never really 100 % sealed just like most watches are never 100% water proof . Good point you make about when pulling out the stem. That cannot be a 100 % seal !!!!! Interestingly, a very overlooked hazard for professional watchmakers. Sorry I couldn't answer your question, but I had to put in my two cents worth considering this is such an overlooked subject

The above responses are great advice! I have been obsessed with this issue for over 30 years since I first discovered that stainless steel is just steel which can rust but with less aesthetic impacts! I would suggest that you give your disassembled case parts a good wash firstly with warm & detergent and then rinse with demineralised water! Once this is done I would passivate them in a 5% citric acid aqueous solution (which you can make yourself) for about 10 minutes., I would again rinse under clean demineralised water and dry out with isopropyl alcohol! Another option is to put the parts in an electric oven ( not gas) at 100 deg Celsius for a further 10 minutes! Let them cool! Once this is done I would lacquer the affected areas with protectaclear or Enduroshield ( not sure if available in your part of the world). The lacquer used to coat brass instruments may also work but I cannot insist but I believe it is the same principle! This may help assist the further progression of pitting and corrosion! Once pitting or corrosion starts in stainless steel, it is almost impossible to stop unless you can eliminate one of the major oxidants - water! I have used this on both my genuine and replica models especially around the case back gasket seat and where the case back meets the mid case, including between the lugs where the bracelet traps a lot of filth! These areas are never exposed to any other contact such as your skin and will remain intact once applied! I have had great success ! Metal pastes and other fillers not work here as there is not enough grip to sit in and will fall off because your pitting isn’t that bad! .You can then use silicone seal and other measures to make it as water resistant as possible! Good luck!

AN UPDATE !!! OK Gentlemen, I thought I would share with all of you something that had been rattling my brain for over the past week. It seemed very strange that my movement would stop at approximately the same time every 7 to 10 days, which I still cannot work out why such a long period of time as opposed to every 12 or 24 hours after it makes a complete revolution. Thanks to the clue offered by fellow member SSTEEL and for other members suggestions to rule out, I focused my attention on the 4th wheel. All the teeth were ok and the shaft and pivot seemed to be ok also. I had the trainwheels out and checked each one of them and also the pivot jewels to make sure there was no unwanted debris or dry oil causing issues there. I also tried Automatico's suggestion of letting the wheels spin freely without the pallet and balance several times making sure wheels were sliding smoothly. I was still wondering what now until I noticed something not right with the trainbridge. I have removed and replaced tranibridges many times but this one seemed to rock a little on the 4th wheel. Did I not set it right? No, I took one off another watch and checked both of them and surprise surprise, the bridge was slightly warped just where the fourth wheel sits. Is this the problem? I don't know but many of you with more experience on this will be able to tell if my theory is valid or not or it does not matter for the trainbridge to sit perfectly over the 4th wheel? However upon assembling it again, without the automatic assembly, it was working well until I gave it a good shake and it stopped!!!!! I tweeked the 4th wheel and it started kicking again.. Maybe a fluke unless there is an underlying problem elsewhere. All I can say is that definitely the trainbridge is not perfectly level when sitting on a flat surface as my other one. A perfectly brand new eta movement!!!