horologist

Well phrased!!! The very reason why I would avoid a TAG! it may be also a good timepiece but is way too overpriced for what it is when compared to a similar genuine Tissot model with a long history ( and may I add - also great value for money). It is a different company from the original Heuer which was a different kettle of fish that was created in 1983 as TAG Heuer. I just love seeing in their ad with a resurrected Steve McQueen (died in 1980) wearing a TAG!!! LOL!!!

Lastly, as I said I hate debating and wished I had this picture a lot earlier to spare all the subsequent words. A picture tells 1000 words or perhaps even more!!!! This is a 904L stainless steel case with a 3135 movement Upon removing the case back seal, it is evident that these holes were not made by termites, but surely is a form of corrosion. I will let the viewers decide as to what it is, but I guarantee that it is not fly Sh*t either!!!!! It may not have been caused by H2SO4 nor HCL or even S2O3(2−) but even less aggressive oxidants in the environment which prove that 904L is nothing special. I think most of us here expect it to be as inert and noble like Gold or Platinum. . If that were the case the metallurgist who designed it would be richer than Rockefeller. Rolex could have used a titanium case instead of this 904L gag

You asked where I was getting my information from and as a former research assistant, information such as this is quite trivial for me to easily reference from my library and sources that it took nowhere near the amount of time to make a coffee.. I am taking more time in looking for that photograph of my 904lL pitted Datejust to post for others to see. When I was an undergraduate we had to reference all bibliography and any information that was not original research. In other words we had to state facts and not opinions. My opening comment was "I do not intend to create a debate here as I prefer to listen rather than talk! ". I.have been a member here for some 10 years and have posted less than 200 times and I would agree to "black being white " purely to avoid an argument. I value any input from all members of this forum as we all have something to offer in this esoteric forum and enjoyed your posts too Yes true, but concentrations of ions can increase over time when the aqueous state dehydrates. If I am perspiring in a hot day, the concentration of salts in sweat will be higher upon dehydrating as mass per volume of fluid will be higher. This is high school physics!! Over the years you will have a build up of salts if you do not rinse the exposed item with clean water. Hope this makes sense as you hammer me for regurgitating and splitting hairs with facts dug up online and essentially not understanding what I am saying. Totally agree!, very true!!! i prefer white gold as I do not like the cosmetic side of yellow gold because it represents jewellery. Gold is as resistant to acids more than any steel. My understanding is that aqua regia attacks gold but that surely will attack us before it attacks gold . My ideal watch would be a submariner with a mid case in platinum ( for hardness) with a white gold back being softer to match the color and to protect it stripping the mid case in addition to protecting it from seizing. Above all it would be free from typical corrosion and would go up in value even just for scrap metal How rolex company treats us with spare parts, there is more chance of attending al live John Lennon concert

I will avoid TAG Heuer!! and any stainless steel or plated watch with an eta movement, as I can do better in buying a replica here from a dealer with an eta already in it and will come out cheaper! Also the new fat lug rolex models with ceramic bezel just do not sell unless I can buy it for a fraction of the price and flog it off for half price to someone else, making us both happy!! Modern mechanical watches are becoming like the old quartz watches with their silicone hairsprings and other parts not being possible to be made according to traditional watchmaking methods!

Forgot to include the online corrosion table from outokumpu who are amongst the world leading specialist in stainless steel. Here you will find a list of various chemicals tested against different grades of stainless steel and how they rank in terms of corrosion http://steelfinder.outokumpu.com/corrosion/ 904lL was specifically designed for the pulp industry and for transporting sulphuric acid. Anything with halides such as chlorides, bromides etc will be a threat to stainless depending on concentration. Iodine in ink and iodine tincture for example will be good contenders for attacking 904L. For example thiosulfate solution with high chloride ions will cause pitting of 904L. Human blood will tend to pit 316L but not 904L, so for this it would be better in case you cut yourself and blood will creep via case back under the seal. Always wash your 904L submariner with clean water straight after coming out of a spa bath, which uses bromide (halide again) salts and you will minimise risk of pitting. For the same price of a 904L rolex you could buy an 18k solid gold star supply submariner case and have an even better corrosion resistant "Rolex submariner". This is where a Franken sub would be better in terms of corrosion and scrap metal than one 904L coming out from Rolex headquarters in Geneva

Well I do not intend to create a debate here as I prefer to listen rather than talk! I learn a lot from everyone here! I have the Avesta Sheffield reference handbook and the outukumpu handbook which we used at the University of Adelaide in the materials science and metallurgy department that although you are correct to state that the ISO standard designates a particular grade of stainless steel, it is also statistical and subject to the probability of different environments and other oxidants present. just reference this online link http://www.atlassteels.com.au/documents/Atlas Grade datasheet 904L rev May 2008.pdf and refer to page 2, for % composition of 904L stainless steel which you will see that there is a minimum and maximum of different variations of other elements/metals present . There are many factors that determine how and where it corrodes including other issues like CPT (critical pitting temperature) which really has nothing to do with the temperature but purely laboratory measures. You will find that 6Mo would have been a better choice. 904lL has copper and is high in molybdenum Try hydrochloric acid and let it seep rough the case back and let me know? Sorry to disappoint you, but I owned a 2002 Datejust with a 3135 movement that had very dark holes in the gasket groove of the mid case that looked like as if termites has eaten into it. This was the worst pitting I have seen on any watch. I am currently trying to find a photo which I had in photobucket to post, as soon as I find it, I will post it here. To epitomise all this, yes 904l is subject to corrosion given the right conditions

Very true!! But replacing the entire keyless works could be as costly as replacing the clone with another clone and you would still be in the sh#%^s the other problem is that when you move the stem to set it in the positions you expect them to function for those settings will not necessarily function as expected! I have one new clone that when stem is in winding position, it just rotates forever! Pull it out in the time setting position to push back in and it begins to wind? Setting it in the second position and sometimes the rapid date changes and sometimes nothing happens when in same position. Put in time setting position and it sets the time ok on some occasions and does nothing on other occasions. Now this is one that I bought new.!! I shiver at the fact of casing it up and need to cut the stem to size, fearing that no matter what position I place stem on, will require removing the whole keyless works and readjusting everything! what puzzles me is you are saying that prior to replacing the cover plate, the balance wheel was moving but upon replacing it the balance wheel stops after a few swings. This is bizarre! Did you touch the wheel with the octopus looking hands just above the date jumper spring? Maybe you must have slipped during assembly and did something to the if shock or something near there!! I myself have always had issues with date mechanism to avoid removing DWO. The datewheel can easily bend or go out of mesh with the connecting areas and give you problems. That small tail attached on the bottom of the date jumper spring on your 2836 should not matter as you notice that the 2824 does not have it!

there are also different variations of 904L where the better quality variation only uses about 38% Iron and the one that just qualifies to be 904L uses 53% Iron. Obviously the less iron used the better in my opinion. there is nothing magical about 904l stainless as it is still a non noble metal alloy which will pit and corrode given the right conditions. For example anything with iodine or bromide salts found in spa baths will pit 904L. I was reading that even human urine will attack stainless steel by pitting. You may ask who would put their timepiece in urine? One can be surprised what gets onto your wrist with the types of movements and environments one is exposed to. The best method to see what type of 904L stainless your watch case is made from is to have an xrf analysis done which most metal disposal merchants would have!

I can see one on ebay as we speak. Please check the link in your pm

Not entirely correct! Platinum also bonds with Ruthenium which is one of the main ingredients used for the platinum electrodes and catalysts. We used it in the physics department, the only value I like about platinum is that it is like a non corrosive ( but very expensive )stainless steel where the hardness and color to me is better than gold! However having said this, the downside to platinum and also titanium is that it galls! Threads will cold weld if not properly lubricated and if you have a platinum day date which will not open because of welded threads, you are up for another USD20,000 for a new case when your original case will need to be cut open at service time They always said that some people have more money than cents ( I mean sense)

His other class mate drives the latest BMW to school and still sees a shrink for not having it all! It's the modern generation of have it all. The media, peer pressure,you name it. The soap operas with the mansions and swimming pools! i also see it with young married people as well. I call them plastic people! They have to have it all yesterday, otherwise it is a trip to the shrink for the happy pills!

I totally agree! I would even get him a quartz divers with a sterile dial and case. This is is what annoys me! I had 3 remaining models which I put together over the years and were hard to get rid of, while I was winding down from this hobby. A month after I got rid of the last one, my sister asked me that her son, my nephew wanted one. Long story short which I won't go into, but he wants the one with the thinner aluminium bezel case! He is 17 and I guess wants to either impress his girlfriend, school buddies or simply wants a watch that looks the part. The modern youth of the modern era! I don't question the motive, but you know the old saying you can't choose your relatives nor your neighbors!

Yeah , as Automatico mentioned, I forgot to say about the grease on the case gaskets which one does already without thinking! Silicone grease is great! I used white lithium grease on mine. When you think about it, the genuine DJ case stripped naked without the gaskets, seals and tube etc is nothing special over the the standard DJ case made for eta mvt apart from the stainless steel grade difference being 904L. I never actually tried using a genuine case tube & crown on the silix case but it would be interesting if anyone has! As for the eta DJ case they are closer related to the genuine DJ cases as opposed to the set up on the sub 16610 case made for eta since the crystal setup is different because in the genuine case they have a crystal retaining ring over the crystal. Whereas in my silix case the crystal is pushed into the crystal gasket! Steinhart and squale homage sub style cases also have same setup as the eta case . If you crack the crystal on your eta 16610, you cannot use a sapphire crystal which is designed for the genuine!!! You are in deep sh$@ if you need to replace crystal. If I recall correctly the genuine crystal has a step in the edge like the DJ crystal!, A star supply case is closer to the real McCoy!

I purchased a raffles DJ case when I was doing these addictive projects many moons ago and wanted something to be as water resistant as possible!!! (especially if I accidentally put my hand in a water of bucket or went swimming). I am not sure what he sells nowadays if any of his stock can accept genuine parts or not. What I did was to buy a new glass seal ( a generic one would do) and replace this for a start. The seal must be tight and if it goes on easily, I would not use it!!! I also had a generic stainless steel crown and tube which I recall purchasing from a watch supply house in Australia. They were great and value for money. The crown and tube are a must!!! I put Loctite and a seal which was slightly thicker. I also replaced the back case seal with a thicker one which I could just see protrude between the back case and the case. I would change it every year or two. I never had a problem with it when immersing it in water. At the time I got a watchmaker to pressure test it and said that it was resistant to 50 meters. I had my doubts about this, but I tested it at home by seeing how it reacted to extreme temperature differences by removing it from very hot water to icy water and vice versa. I even left it in the top freezer of the refrigerator over night. I used it for swimming and for light immersion in water without a problem. It is still ticking away today even though I don't wear it very often. I was quite satisfied with this especially being a replica. I would never dare this with a genuine DJ!!! LOL!!! DISCLAIMER!!!! I MAKE NO GUARANTEES THAT THE ABOVE METHOD IS GOSPEL IN WATERPOOFING AS IT MAY HAVE BEEN A PURE FLUKE THAT IT WORKED. IF YOU TRY THE ABOVE, DO IT AT YOUR OWN RISK AS INFORMATION IS INTENDED FOR INFORMATIONAL MATERIAL AND ONLY AS A GUIDE (AND TO SHARE WHAT WORKED FOR ME)!!!

I was thinking of that being one way to go as a last resort! I guess that they might want to hang onto them if they are getting in short supply! Thanks also for he pure time link!,

As it is for an older teenager (brother in laws son ) a 1:1 build would be way over the top. Some people have never seen a genuine Rolex and believe me he hasn't either!! So really anything would have sufficed! BUT he has seen all the builds I made from Yuki case sets and even from raffles (even though not very accurate as you say) with the aluminium style bezel. Those chunky new age ones just won't do the trick! When I was recovering from my disability, I spent a lot of time re shaping some of the silix cases which I was quite satisfied with even though never like those from JMB nor rollojack or those of other true artisans here! I jsaw one from alpha watch in Lithuania which seemed was pretty close to what he wants but has a see through back, but after corresponding with the dealer, he has confirmed that if is for an eta 2824 so none of my left over 2836 with the DWO will work! So it has put me back to the drawing board For a teenager? I never bought one for myself! LOL!!

Is it true that the traditional 16610 style cases have been discontinued in production in the replica world and also as sterile cases? Just as I was winding down, a family member asked me if I could build him either an economy replica 16610 or a 14060 but neither raffles nor Yuki keep them. I noticed that even the eta 16610lv case set on the Yuki site states "ceased production". Has as anyone been successful in obtaining them anywhere and if so, could you PM me if posting the source is against the forum rules. Thos new chunky ceramic bezel styles just don't do it for him!, I can't say I am all that impressed with them either!!!

Damaged or missing dial feet on a dial is serious in my book!! There is no real substitute but from that the real solution is to have them re-soldered and have the dial resorted because of the burn marks though the front of dial. Brings 2 problems 1. It is expensive and risk having stains at the front of dial 2. It is a re-dial which makes it worth less all that is a hazard for a genuine dial/ watch and how much worse for a replica!!!!! I no longer do any new projects as I have tossed it all in since it became beyond reach. I would have experimented by doing the following: Would it be possible to make an annulus from a blank dial made for a 2836 movement and keeping the feet on it. In other words, it could be used as a dial space which could be epoxied underneath the dial with damaged feet. It might act as dial feet and as a spacer from rubbing the DWO. I would expect it to be stronger as you would have both axial and radial torque!

Any updates with the results??? I am very curious as I wasn't in particularly lucky with mine. I purchased one from a reputable dealer (source not disclosed as he is a good dealer) and when it arrived it seemed like a nice fresh clean movement that seems to be a good economical substitute for the real McCoy. I went for and paid more for it than the usual ones as this was regarded as a better quality one than ones sold mainstream. Advertising marketing jargon as they say!!! When I replaced the dial I had problems getting the feet to latch on. I thought that the feet had bent but trying it on the genuine movement they fitted in without any problems. Upon trying on the clone again I had problems and had to juggle the dial to slightly bend on of the feet to fit it on. I fitted it into the case and noticed that the keyless works were rough as guts. The stem would not set properly with time setting and also with rapid date change. The new stem needed to be recut to fit the crown. This is where it gets better. I put the stem in time setting position as I have done since the beginning of time and removed the stem. Upon resizing the stem, I place it in and the winder is stuck in the calendar position. Yes, you guessed it, the yoke slipped out of place even in the mythical magical position that everyone swears by to avoid readjusting your keyless works. My biggest fears were realised when I had to remove the dial again after a painful ordeal of fitting it on. Upon adjusting the keyless works and resetting the datewheel on, it kept on falling off. I removed the DWO to see what the problem was. The jumper spring was damaged. Don't know how that happened but may be it was already faulty. Don't' know??? Maybe I did it when putting it on. I removed one off the dead original and fitted everything back on. Fingers crossed!!!! Casing the movement and trying to set the time, the hands fell off. Remove the movement again and I notice that the dial feet had broken off. I now know I was at a huge loss, so I dismantled both movements for my curiously and noticed that the feet holes in the clone were slightly off. Incidentally the clone was also dry in many places without oil so it would have stopped after 6 months anyway. Now this is not the first time I have done this as the other dozen times it all went smooth with a genuine eta. The time I spent on this I could have worked it as overtime at work and bought myself 3 genuine movements. There is much debate that the clones are becoming indistinguishable from the genuine but that is a myth because you can see the roughness of the clones and you develop an eye for it. Will I buy another clone again??? You guessed it!!!. Will you put your hand in the fire twice? I can guess that one too!!! Just my experience with my clone movement

Greetings as I am slowly winding down on the practical side of this hobby, I recently completed my final project - a hulk submariner for an acquaintance to clean out what I had accumulated over the years. i recall at some stage that there was some discussion from a few forum members regarding to cutting the stem to get a perfect fit in the eta 2836-2 submariner, but couldn't find it in the archives as to whether it was ever answered or not. for those interested, I kept a record of each stem I cut for a cartel aluminium bezel seadweller and the raffles hulk for dials of 29mm diameter that the stems were all approx 12.5 to 12.8 mm in totally length (for eta 2836-2) This would give you a flush finish when screwing down the crown. Now I cannot say that this length would be Gospel, as I am aware that various variations of other case manufacturers exist. I usually cut them at 13mm and slowly sand the tip until the crown flushes the case. Hope this could be of some use to any novice willing to take up one of their projects

Well it seems like you sort of nailed this one right on the head!! What I noticed is that the dial was slightly bent and not fully flat. Maybe a manufacturing issue or I could have accidentally done it myself . I will never know!! I tried to somehow press on it to flatten it and so far it seems to be in situ! I juggled it a bit to make sure the movement prongs hold it. Will see when it is put in action as to how successful the long run will be. Thank you so much for your input which is what makes this forum a true blessing to be part of!!

The dial feet seem to go in without feeling loose. I feel the clamps that rotate onto the feet don't grip or do not seem to sit in place once you swing them onto the foot post? I thought of cementing them into movement but would be a horror to remove if in need of a service or further work - obviously frowned upon by professional watchmaking fraternity

Hello fellow members, it it has been a while since I posted as I have only been lurking. I have been helping out a colleague with his Parnis submariner look alike as he had asked my opinion about getting it seviced. I offered to look into it and noticed it to have a dg2813 which we all know what the best service for that is!! LOL! I have fitted eta 2836 in the past for this model. I had a spare sterile eta dial and an eta cone I purchased about 12 months ago sitting n my drawer and asked him if he was happy for me to replace his watch with them and he happily agreed. I assembled it without problems including the DWO?.............. BUT the dial feet do not hold against the movement clamps that swing to friction hold the dial feet! They seem to flip off with an movement. The dial comes loose and hands fall off already cased a couple of scratches on dial! The movement is great in terms of accuracy, even better than some of my genuine etas in my genuine watches.!! I can now see the quality downside to these clones? It may sound trivial, but has anyone ever experienced this??! What solutions have any of you come up with as I am all ears or more precisely - all eyes! Thanks in advance

Wishing everyone and their loved ones the very best for the Festive season with good health, happiness, a peaceful life, lots of good luck and that 2018 will bring even better blessings!!

As I understand it, the outside of the threads is 3.0 mm. The inside is 2.65mm which happens to the pitch- ,35 less the Outer diameter 3.00mm in this case. To drill a new case hole, you would use a 2.65 mm drill bit. The actual depth of the threads might be a little bit less to allow for installation. As there will be threads on both sides of the case tube, the depth of the top of the thread to the bottom of the thread would be less than half of 0.35mm being less than 0.175mm. I recall I had this same problem. Those that have done it recently can verify or dismiss my claim. In theory it seems simple, but you have to have a very accurate setup, good tools (and the mrs off your back) with a very steady hand as if you do not get it centred, you won't have enough fingers to cross to hope for luck. It must be dead centre!!