RobbieG

I'll second that. At the end of the day I buy the gens because I have decided that I can afford them. Maybe I can't, but even that is relative right? If I ever decided that I couldn't afford them I would buy only reps as it isn't like I would just go without. I would say though that if I could only afford one gen or ten reps, I would be the guy who just had the one gen...

Here is a classic, "all dial" watch. Not blingy, but unique classic and cheap. But retro is in now with the young crowd so you could be a trend setter. 43MM but wears like 45MM being all dial... You might also consider any of the Cousteau watches. The bezel is internal giving that "all dial" look again which will wear much bigger. These are 44MM but wear like 46MM...

I'm speecheless. The knowledge and abilities of our membership here is staggering - as is the willingness of some to go to the trouble to find all this out. I mean obviously, The Zigmeister has always been with us as an Asian movement expert, but it is nice to know others are learning and growing along as well. Bravo Francisco! Ole'

Yeah and that brings it to a close nicely in that even as you say many of these issues can be tinkered with and fixed. But I for one don't enjoy that process, so I would have to send it out and if it could never get fixed right I would just be bummed out. So then I would need a gen dial and so on. It just seems like modding of some kind is the only thing that offers even partial protection for a lot of models...

Hey guys - not to beat a dead horse but while organizing some files I came across a great pic that would really benefit this discussion for clarification purposes. As you know, I have been saying that the details and precision are the things that really motivate my collecting and love for watches. I have also made it known that I like to buy reps to see what I think of a gen I have been pondering as a trial run. A while back I was thinking of getting a new Datejust with the new case style and although the reps at the time (maybe they still don't?) didn't have that case, I was undecided about what dial, bezel, bracelet combo to get when I got the gen. I bought three rep DJ's with a variety of combos, and gave them away after I got the gen as gifts. When the order came in it turned out that one of the dials was cracked and so I snapped a pic to send to my dealer to show him. He sent an advance replacement watch without the bracelet and I sent the head back to him... Anyway, all the DJ's were the best quality ETA versions available at the time - late 2007, which I determined through a lot of research to make sure I got the best that was out there. Pay no attention to the crack obviously, but the difference in these two photos of Datejust dials, from one of the reps and my current gen illustrates exactly why I find the details of reps to be lacking and why I have crossed over into buying and keeping gens in the permanent collection. At arms length you probably wouldn't notice, but up close, even without a loupe the difference in quality of the parts, workmanship, fit and finish is to me staggering. I will be interested to hear how many feel that what is shown here is unacceptable for the highest quality rep available for the line. Certainly a franken job with a gen dial solves the problem, but personally I couldn't sleep at night until I got that dial out of there or got rid of the watch. Incidentally, the recipient of the gift was an older family member with poor eyesight and he thinks the watch may as well be worth a million dollars as the rep Jubileee bracelet (new style clasp) is out of this world feel wise - I would put that bracelet on a gen watch in that case without a second thought. Still, I would love to hear your impressions of these photos and whether you would still be fine with owning the watch knowing the dial looked like this up close. Again, for me the issue isn't accuracy to the gen with reps. It is the marginal workmanship and sloppyness in the details that I always seem to encounter, like you see here with the finishing of the indices and the dial print as compared to the gen. I wish I had more photos as the same kind of slop was EVERYWHERE on the watch - crown, bezel fit, endlinks, etc. but I think from this one pic you can get the idea. Meanwhile, I get stars in my eyes and my heart melts everytime I look at the gen dial from any angle. And that is what moves me with watches. I only wish more reps held that line as it would save me a boatload of money. LOL. The funny thing is I know they could if they charged a bit more, but then all the people who don't care would say they were too expensive and never buy them. I have often said, I wish there was another quality level, which is the "perfect" gen quality fit/finish rep for like a grand or fifteen hundred or something that would pass the close up test... - 2007 DJ rep (based on "F" serial), MOP Roman dial: - 2008 DJ gen ("M" serial), Rhodium Roman Dial:

Not sure if everyone saw this, but it came up in a search I did for something else and thought I would post it... http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/01/business...;_r=1&fta=y

I had three different watches on at different times today as the light was cool for some new wristshot photos... AT in the office: DJ in the office: PO on the lanai under the clouds (gotta love that AR - just melts me everytime I see that deep black color of the dial with just a hint of purple):

Yeah, I think you must either be lucky or they are cherry picking for you, because literally EVERY single rep I have ever had has some sloppy issue with it. The movement has been the least of my worries. Always some alignment, dirt, fitting issue of some kind. Plus, I see things like glue spillover little chips in applied markers, etc. at macro which just makes Photoshop work for me. As I said, the little details - partly even for photo reasons - just mean everything to me and when you look at a perfectly constructed gen through the lens it is just breathtaking to me on a whole other level. Subtle for sure, but it is there. I think the bottom line is each individual either "sees it" or they don't - meaning that they may see it, but it hardly even registers with some, but with others it is like nails on a chalkboard...

Yeah, someone recently told me that I am literally the same age as Godzilla, which goes a long way to explain how I have been feeling lately...

LOL. I was trying to be polite. Yes, they are inferior in certain ways, but what I'm trying to do is not [censored] reps on a rep forum. They have their purpose and for the money they can't be beat - especially if someone isn't a nut for loupe level detail or doing any diving. I am no doubt a pragmatist in general and certainly so when considering this very issue. Clearly, being a guy that has spent nearly enough money to buy a house in some states on Swiss watches, I must be getting something out of it to justify such ongoing expenses. So for me there is a big difference - hence all the gens instead of reps. But like I said, that is really of no consequence as one only has to consider what is really important to him and his collection knowing what moves him and then the choice of gen or rep becomes instantly clear. Like your diving example as it related to the EVO for instance. If someone here doesn't dive and doesn't care about the little details as I do, and is trying to consider buying a gen EVO or a rep EVO, clearly the best choice for that person would be the rep. Because to him, it really isn't inferior in any way that effects him. Whereas you and I would buy the gen (you already did) probably almost without a second thought. That is what I meant to stress all along...

My favorite wallpapers are the macro dial art shots I always have a lot of fun with. It is easiest for me to just post the smaller sized versions of my favorites here in the thread, but anyone who would like a full sized version can PM me your email addy and I'll send you any one you would like...

You are going to crack up, but I just did this. I'm not a bug the AD type at all but my UN MMD which I have had for maybe 6 months now had the slightest issue with the bezel just a hair off center and the datewheel just a hair off on two of the numbers and I brought it in yesterday for a quick fix. Goes to show the level of detail I'm into, hence my opinions in this thread. But the AD was happy to do it for free of course, and even a bit embarrassed stating that he was surprised that the brand would ever have an alignment issue. "Those Swiss...Too much brandy in his cocoa that morning maybe.." was his statement when he looked at it. But the point being that I would bet 9 out of 10 people here wouldn't even notice it if I handed you the watch and asked you to find something wrong with it...

No worries bro. Didn't take it that way. Nice to make your aquaintance BTW. As a side note, funny you should say that as I had a couple TAGs over the years although I don't hve one at the moment, and as I recall the crowns were all kind of stubborn and difficult to turn, get threaded right, etc. I wonder if it is something to do with the tubes they use or the way they are seated or something? I always wonder about that stuff. Like the UPO rep crown issue BTW. I have a gen PO and the crown is one of the smoothest I have so I wonder why the design would somehow cause a problem with that particular rep. I mean I know the movements are different but both ETA so it shouldn't really matter. Meanwhile, I have a gen IWC Aquatimer and that crown is the worst. Takes me two tries usually and great care to get it threaded right. As I recall the rep felt the same. Go figure...

I just saw this bro - yeah - exactly. Instead I go to China, try on the rep and if I like it I buy the gen. Isn't it great that two guys with the same birthday can live out the exact same process in reverse? We should do a movie together - like Arnold and Devito in Twins or something...

Hey, great thread BTW. I forgot who started this now but it is excellent. We haven't had a really good "opinion" thread in quite some time now. Isn't it cool that we can all have such differing views and take in all the perspectives? Gotta love RWG - especially if you are a watch nut...

You are generalizing here my friend - many are actually. "Waste", along with some other words getting tossed around are relative terms. You are also speaking of your expereince only which doesn't have to happen to others. As an example, I have at one time had maybe 30 gens to the tune of 100k invested or more and never once had any problems with them. I also had in that exact same time another 30 reps and had to fix nearly all of them at my expense. I too have sent reps back to China and had all of them replaced for free if defective which is standard now. Of course if the gens were defective they would have been replaced too. LOL. Sorry about your TAG experience, but we can't use that to generalize a discussion of the merits of reps and gens - or how some watches break and others don't. Or I suppose we can, but that would be a poll thread. Both reps and gens have all the merit in the world and again, as I said in my OP, the only question is how each of us perceives quality as it is subjective, and how each of us makes choices based on those perceptions. There is no right answer. Multiple choice...

Yeah, I certainly wouldn't say they are crap at all - nor are they inferior in any way. Dani and I most certainly don't agree on that. To me reps are not crap, they are just different. But I wasn't speaking about accuracy. They are very accurate. I wasn't speaking of "flaws" but rather manufacturing sloppyness that not everyone can even see or be bothered by. But to me, that Swiss precision - and NOT the accuracy of the replication is my hot button. Sloppyness drives me insane! I want to be able to gaze with a loupe for hours and revel in the fact that everything is perfectly aligned and clean and precise. And movements and complications are a whole other thing, but that is another thread... So I haven't "lost my perspective". That IS my perspective. I'm just a guy that never really judged a rep on the merits of its accuracy to the gen in terms of visual flaws or even its materials (rep materials are more than fine), but rather the tiny differences, which to me make all the difference in the world, and which separate the amateurs from the pros so to speak in the watchmaking world. But I definitely concede that what we are talking about is splitting hairs. But splitting hairs in the micro world is for some the whole point. That said, many of the errors on reps can be fixed too - or modded. In my case, I also used to enjoy that process. Now I don't. To each his own right. I just don't like getting a rep I'm excited about, finding out that the bezel doesn't center, the lume on the 5 is to the left by a 16th, the glass is dirty and the threads are stripped. Sure I could send it off to someone and fix much of it maybe, but I just say f*ck it and get the gen which I know won't ever disappoint me. But I still love the 1:1 reps from a standpoint of being able to make collection choices without spending an arm and a leg for what amounts to a mistake. So now I buy reps and if they are screwed up I don't even notice it because I know I'll never keep it. There is a purpose. If I fall in love, I'll sell it and get the gen - if I don't I'll sell it and not get the gen, and then on to the next one. But given that my love of watches in in the precision of the details, I had no choice. I just couldn't stand being bummed any more since I don't have the inclination or time to "fix" and "mod". Trust me, I have done my fair share of that. You could ask quite a few watchsmiths on this and other boards who are holding thousands and thousands of my money for such work. Now I just give that and more to Switzerland instead, PLUS to China because I still buy reps too. I just don't keep them for as long as some...

Let me weigh in here guys with the contrarian view. First off, IMO if you ever even consider buying a luxury watch with a wonder of whether anyone will know what it is you are probably missing the fine details that make these pieces exceptional. If you are talking about visual cues, you are right that most good reps come so close to being visually accurate it is hardly even worth the conversation. I would also argue that perfectly objectively, 200 bucks doesn't buy something that truly feels, looks, acts like the real thing in my experience - not without a lot of work and even then it depends on the watch and it still won't be quite the same. But that said, the little details that truly signal quality are almost always missing in reps. Crooked indices, grinding sounds when using the crown, stripped threads, floppy levers, uneven lume, poor quality glass, unoiled movements, play in hands, sloppy printing, datewheel misalignment, and my favorite - quality and final finish of the steel itself. Simply put, there are major differences and just because they look close and/or get to 98% or whatever the other 2% is a world apart. The debate lies in whether a person feels that they are important or not. I, of course, do. Very much so. But I suspect many here probably don't and the ones that do can easily be spotted as they usually have less reps in their collections. Most of the things (but not all) that I mentioned can be corrected by modding, tweaking, etc. The issue for me is whether I have the inclination to bother with it. I used to, but not anymore. I found that I would do all of it and instead of being rewarded there would always be something that still wasn't right. I am drawn to the perfection of it all above all else so for me, if I truly love a watch and its design I want to have the highest achievement of it. Period. But it isn't for knowing what I have or what others think, it is for me and me alone. Liking fine things that happen to be very expensive isn't snobbery, nor is it absurd to spend money on something that can and has been replicated. So what? They make generic cola that looks and taste a lot like Coke for half the money and I still buy Coke. The cost of anything is relative really. The one thing that I always feel like I have to defend is the notion that it is a fact that Swiss watches are overpriced. For that matter I suppose reps are overpriced as I would think anything that wasn't the highest quality to be so. It is a personal decision and the cost of material has no basis in that discussion. There can't be a fair comparision unless the items are equal and they aren't. The gap money is the amount one is either willing to pay for perfection or willing to not pay because it is "good enough" for him. That is all... As an example, I had a IWC Slevin rep and ended up getting the gen version in Ti. The Slevin rep was $300 and the gen was $5500. Very similar, but here are the differences. The rep had caked on dust and fingerprints under the glass, three crooked indices, a sticky pusher, a terrible lume application, bad rate results, dirty unoiled movement, and my favorite - the bezel mechanism had about a 16th of play in it and wouldn't land in the center. Did the watches look to be the same quality from arms length? Sure. But the details that I find a bare minimum in any nice watch were all missing. So it wasn't even a moments decision to spend the additional $5200 to have those items be right. But the rep served its purpose. I bought it to see if I would really like the design and would want to have it as a permanent part of my collection. I did. But I think you see my point. Many people on these boards buy reps to save money on the genuine counterparts. Many buy them to be able to feel like they are wearing a luxury item that they couldn't ordinarily afford but look like they can and be noticed by others or whatever. And everything in between. I know I am probably the exception given that I have evolved to use reps simply as a trial run for potential future gen purchases. We all have our thing. In my current box the pieces in there have a retail value of nearly $30K. That scares me now that I say that as I realize what I scaled back from. Silly. But I was right to do so. No sense in being wasteful. If they were all reps I would have maybe $1500 at most in them. Or would it - because I wouldn't have 5 reps I would have probably 50 by now if I had kept going. Anyway, I realize it is a huge price differential but again, it is how much you are willing to pay for what moves you? In my life experience I can say one thing for sure and that is my comfort level and pleasure is usually found when I pay more for things rather than less. Watches, hotels, sheets, booze, clothes, cars, etc. In each one of those items there will always be a way to say that we are overpaying for something that is not needed. Will I not be able to sleep with 600 thread count? Must I really have 1000? If hotels are for sleeping why pay $700 a night with a butler on your floor when you can get a bed for $38 at Quality Inn or whatever? $7 a bottle Scotch still gets you drunk but do you want to drink it? You might say that I'm the poster child for the saying, "Life is too short" When in doubt, I ratchet up rather than down because hey, why not travel in style when you can. Call me a snob, but Kn*b Creek tastes better than cheap bourbon to my taste buds... Watches are no different. We all know that if you want pure perfection from any particular watch you have to get the gen - or do some major modding. It is kind of a joke around here when someone starts complaining about rep issues. We say almost in unison "Dude, you better get the gen then." I realized I was on of those guys so I stopped buying and stopped complaining. But if the details don't move you, why bother? A rep is more than fine if all you are about is looking down and seeing something that is 95% or more visually accurate to the gen. The point being that this debate can never really be a worthwhile one as there is only one thing to consider: There is no answer as to whether a rep is better than a gen or vice versa for the money. It is a loaded question. The better debate is not a debate but a poll which says knowing that reps are flawed and gens are not, but reps are economical and gens are way more expensive consider this: Do you care about details enough to pay through the nose for them for them or would you rather have something which is "close enough" and save the money because you don't care about those details so much? I also think that the longer you are collecting reps you can get jaded too. When you are newer at it and just buying everything in sight in the honeymoon you don't have time to reflect as much and consider the collection and where you are going at first. It seems like we all get more refined into one mode of thinking or another as we move through the years. Anyway, I would like to hear the debate from that angle - the "Who cares about details" and who doesn't angle that is. I think the money aspect of it matters less if you are firmly planted on one side of the fence or another. .02

I had this Malte Chrono for a good while and got rid of it. It did turn me on to the brand and dress watches in general. I highly recommend it. Very accurate all things considered actually. In fact now I am about to grab a gen VC to wear on my wedding day. I have really shrunk down my gen collection to just one watch in each of a few broad category I have decided on. But one category has remained empty and that is the small, strapped dress watch one. I have searched for some time to decide on what I wanted and settled on something even more simple. I have decided on the new Partimony Traditionelle in WG. Simple, elegant, refined - perfect in every way. The last simple dress watch I will ever need. Less is more...

Such a shame that such a major movement contender in all reps has this problem. Winding a watch should never have to give one fear of breaking it. I hope in the future the rep industry will find and use a better oiled/serviced movement out of the gate. I know for many rep buyers the notion of paying for a full chronograph service done right - even at a and inexpensive rate in addition to the cost of the rep is troublesome - especially if they bought the rep used and the service costs more than the watch. Service is much easier to justify when you have 5-10K of investment into the watch and there is rarely a need until the first five or so years of enjoyment has past. I know when those milestones are reached and I'm attached to the watch I sort of look forward to sending the watch to the "spa" so to speak. Plus the confidence is higher that after the service something else isn't going to break by happenstance causing the process to repeat for another expense. I would love to hear from the members how they all feel about this issue - initial cost vs. mandatory service cost and where the line gets drawn. How much sunk into a rep is too much and at what point do you feel you have future confidence to justify spending the money. I personally don't have any Asian movements in my box right now, mostly for that very reason of future trust/comfort, but I'm always curious as to how the rest of you feel about this issue. It is one thing to have to adapt to something imperfect by "jerk/swirl" winding a watch for fear of damage, but what if something else breaks and where do you come out if it does. I don't know what Rob (or other rep friendly mechanics) charge for servicing a chronograph, but it isn't an easy job so it can't be too cheap if done right. And $125 for that movement seems high if it still isn't right and reliable. So do you get a whole new watch, pay for the $125 movement replacement, pay $600 or more for a 7750 or 7753 and labor to broach the subdial hands? And if you choose the Asian movement replacement or new rep route, do you pay for service right away or take your chances?

"China, Taiwan or my butthole are dangerous places to navigate." - Phoband /RWG - 2008

Back to the MMD Sunday morning after all the UN talk...

Yeah, I know. I didn't mean to infer that the gold version had the blue rotor. BTW, I had that gen rose version for a day and sent it back - cause the gen rose gold is horribly ugly. Yuk. Horrible. They make it look sexy in pics, but as much as I love UN, thier rose gold is am ugly yellowish greenish color... I just wanted to point out how the rotors are blued for those who have or are getting the steel version to let you know why the rep can't get the color right...

No, although I realize angles can distort that isn't what is going on here. The date window is higher on the rep and the dial fonts are not compensated. My point is at that angle you shouldn't see any distortion. No worries though. Just thought I would point it out. Don't forget, the gen is based on a 7753 which moves the date module down to 6 from 4:30 at an angle. But it is closer to the edge of the dial on that model than on the 7750. The rep is a 7750 with the date converted from 3 with no angle. It just lands higher from the edge when that module is placed than on the 7753. Nothing that can be done about it - other than to recognize it and print that font a hair higher so it can't be noticed. You can see it quite well by comparing these two images...

The Marine line alone has a good few they can do which is one of the cornerstones of the brand. I think you are right Pho, more are coming. I know the MMD is coming next and is well into the pipeline now. It will be interesting to see what dials they do...