mezzanine

Why would watch makers 'not' put this movement into their newer watches? Is it seriously a matter of the 'rep' movement still being too expensive to maximize profits? Sounds ridiculous, but that's the theory I'm operating under. Watches like the Steelfish, etc... should have the best 'clone' movement, IMO. It makes you wonder what we're paying for.

It drives me nuts, the price gap between the asian SFSO without AR and the ETA version that has it. I keep asking myself- is it worth it to pay $200 for an AR coated crystal? I realize that the bulk of the cost is contained in the ETA, but there's still a significant margin difference, irrespective of the cost of the movement and AR. The premium is what bugs me, not the additional cost of the swiss movement and AR coating. When the swiss comes down to $300 shipped with the bracelet and leather strap, I might bite. Problem is, it might not ever come down that far.... The idea of spending near $400 for that watch is out of my range of acceptable value, being that the gen is worth $1300 used. I really think that the rep community is in trouble. I'm not saying that reps are in trouble...I'm saying that the community is in trouble. It's becoming increasingly difficult to moderate the acceptability of pricing on these watches. I think the market is going to get bigger, and I think that the relevance of these communities is going to suffer....

Phoband, what's the shipping cost from silix? Cause my first reaction to his pricing was really positive, but then when I factored in the cost of shipping, it ended up where he's pretty much in line with a lot of the other dealers. If that's a shipped price, then I might have to do some shopping... I know you're a stickler for AR, just as I am, but I haven't seen any prices or listing for the ETA version on his site. I'd be in the market for a Chopard MM GTXL and a Steelfish, if I could do it for under $400 shipped.

There are a few reasons that I would say contribute to it. The 'super reps' have made a lot of the nice older reps obsolete for me. Watches I may have had some interest in six months ago, are now supplanted by newer watches, and these are less likely to show up on the 'for sale' section. Personally, I'm not as into modded watches as some. This makes me less interested in watching the sales section. I have to say it...I'm sure I'll get ripped on for it, but there's a weird culture around here. For the most part, it's a great group of people. But just the nature of reps, the 'grey-area' elements that we're all necessarily tied to, makes the valuations inherently subjective and prone to being exploited. I'm not a VIP member here yet...if I ever choose to sell any of my watches, I probably will be. Apparently there is a stigma associated with being around the board for a length of time without upgrading your membership. I find myself asking: what exactly would I be paying for? Am I paying for protection from the larger internet replica industry, whereby I'm protected from things like price-fixing? Well, the super-reps are price-fixed. I know that we all have collectively accepted that, in the desire to get the best watches, but that doesn't excuse it. Same thing goes for the issues raised in the "little white lies" thread. The very thing that the forum is supposed to guard against, it endorses. I realize that there is a scale of gradations and of concessions that are necessarily involved, but if I'm paying for the notion that I'm somehow protected from that by being a member, that criteria doesn't hold up to my own personal evaluation. There's the whole issue of 'modders' who are charging big dollars for their watches, who are essentially dealers, but because of their senior status, they're given a level of lee-way. There was an issue regarding that which came up in the sales forum very recently. The last thing I would want to do is negate the hard work that the admins and mods do here. I recognize that there's a lot of work that goes into it. The cost of maintaining a forum 'should' be able to be covered by advertising. I'm a mod on a much larger forum that is able to cover their maintenance costs by advertising on the site. Maybe I just don't understand some of the elements of expense that go on here. Quite possible. But it's not clear to me where the 'value' of a VIP membership lies.

I'm interested in learning how the color of the dial on a watch influences the visibility of AR on it's crystal...or more precisely, how the dial color influences the invisibility of crystals that are AR'd. For example, I am interested in purchasing a Breitling Steelfish SuperOcean, which is available in three colors. I've read that the white-dialed version does not 'require' or 'show' the AR on it's crystal to the same degree that the solid-colored dials do (black and blue). I figure that the same might be true of the white-dialed VCO vs. the black-dialed version or an Ingy. Is it worth it to buy a white-dialed watch with AR, if there is a cheaper version that doesn't have it? I've heard a couple of people who have the white-dialed asian SFSO say that they don't really miss having the ETA version with the coated crystal. I'm guessing that crystal shape may be a factor...where a flat crystal like the one on the VCO may benefit more from AR than a domed crystal, like the one on the Steelfish. Any feedback from those who have the experience or watches to be able to make an informed comment would be appreciated...

First of all, thanks for the awesome review!! I have a question: You mentioned you took it to a watchmaker to get it checked out, etc... And I noticed that you said that it arrived clean and oiled. Was this something you had confirmed? I ask, because if the rep factories are doing a better job of sending the watches out with oiled/clean movements, I might wait a while before sending 'er off to The Zigmeister for a service. The Zigmeister had mentioned that most of the asian 7750's he gets in are not clean or oiled very well....and since we've been hearing less complaints about the A7750's, I wondered if maybe they're doing a better job of getting it right from the beginning...

I've got a Cousteau en route that I'm wanting to have for a long time, so I'm not sure whether I should have it serviced right away, or try to get a month or two out of it before it goes off to The Zigmeister... Is there any problem with waiting to have it serviced? I don't think The Zigmeister is even accepting new service requests right now....

This is a very relevant issue for me, as I'm close to purchasing the ETA version *exclusively* for the AR on the crystal. I am one who believes that it makes a huge difference- but it's not worth three times the price or two hundred dollars more. I would gladly get it done aftermarket, but chieftang has said that the AR service is likely to be no longer available...if not temporarily, then forever. By the way, this is what I perceive to be the answer to the super-rep price gouging. They're capitalizing on the AR as much as the ETA, in my opinion- as far as being able to 'sell' the higher priced model over the cheaper one. I think that, as a community, the best thing we could do to honour the spirit of what this collection of buyers is supposed to repesent, would be to organize a way to maximize the value of rep purchases by offering ways to circumvent the price-gouging. How would we do it? Well, if we could systematize a way of doing the aftermarket AR...taking what chieftang organized in principle, and applying the full support of the community to make it an option for anyone who is looking for more value-oriented solutions. Think: If we could do full crystal removal and AR coating, we could have functionally equivalent watches to the ETA SFSO's that are $350 shipped for $150. I bet you that the AR on the aftermarket watches would be superior in quality. Problem is it would have to be easy. Something like having Silix ship the watches directly to the liason for crystal removal and AR, then forwarded to their buyer.

I'd heard he was offering them, but couldn't find them on his website(s) or on his collector forum. I'd be relatively confident that it would be the same watch as the cartel, but I will leave that for more educated posters to comment on. *edit: K, I'm dumb...I went and checked again, and he does have them on the site, but the asian version only, as far as I could see. Nothing to add on the issue of the concentric circles, other than that I would be reasonably assured that it's the same watch as the others have access to.

I don't think it's the cartel so much as it's the factory. We've seen other dealers gain access to the super-reps, but the prices haven't been significantly better- which suggests to me that the factory is price-fixing. The only way that it will be rectified is if other factories start seeing the monopoly, and begin to try to do something similar. There is some cause for hope that this is happening. The IWC Aquatimer and the Tag are coming from a different factory- but are supposedly 1:1.....

Yup, we're of the same mind on this issue...and also in terms of rep preferences... Sometimes I wonder whether part of the reason I'm such a stickler for AR, is that I've had the dual reinforcement of associating it with the really high quality watches that it's come on (cousteau/HBB). The truth is, though, that I like it independently of any of that. I would AR any watch I would want to keep...with the obvious exceptions of the Rollies and some of the Pams- but ironically, and perhaps not co-incidentally, I'm not a huge fan of either of those brands. I know that when I go for my requisite Pam, I'm going for one that has double-sided AR. I'll make buying decisions on the basis of the presence of AR. I know it's a little extreme and ridiculous, but so much time went by in our hobby without this obviously needed mod, that it began to spiral into a neurotic obsession for me...whereby I started fixating on it. That's what has me irritated with some of the pricing on the new models. If I want AR, I have to pony up for the prices on the new models. For example, I would be *totally* happy with the asian SFSO, if it came with AR....and was $175 instead of $140. The uPO offers this possibility, but quite purposely I imagine, the super-reps don't. I know that the super-reps have more going for them than AR...but I think that the makers realized they could capitalize on our desire for AR, and are milking it now for way more than it's actual value. I'm their perfect victim, in that sense... Getting it done after-market is costly when you consider the cost of removing and replacing the crystal.... I would be going hard after a MBW PP Nautilus if it had double AR, and the absurd thing is that the gen doesn't have it....but damn would it look stunning with that blue-ish dial. My bottom-line is that watches look better with it...universally. I think the whole issue of possible scratching is way overblown...and this is coming from someone who only yesterday spotted the first scratch of the coating on their HBB.

Someone ban this guy already. Please.

Phoband, you're crazy for not biting on that offer....what was the deal? Cause you could've flipped it for a nice profit, worst case scenario. I thought that it was hard to even get the gens at full retail, with the way the supply is being tightly controlled... Chronus, the 7753 Cartier is a watch that has slipped under my radar for a while, even though I've always liked it... I ended going with a Pasha Seatimer for my Cartier fix, but that's going to be going up for sale soon- I like the idea of replacing it with the Santos. It's expensive, but as you said, the styling is really nice, and I need a more formal watch... Hmm...Cartier or PP Nautilus...that's a tough one. I love Chronos, which is probably a bad preference to have if you're into reps....

Sadly, I'm one of those that need to have double AR to be really happy. That being said, I noticed a tiny scratch of the AR on my HBB today, and suffice to say I was not pleased. Still worth it for me, though. I do question whether the AR used on our reps is anywhere near the quality that the chieftang AR achieves...I don't know whether it's all the same thing, but I suspect not. I personally would go as far as to get models that have no AR on the gen, AR'd aftermarket just because I like what it does for the finish of the watch to such a degree. If I were to get an MBW PP Nautilus, I'd probably have it AR'd, even though the gen I'm sure doesn't have it. And By-Tor, it's funny you bring up the Tag Link Chrono and how much it could improve with good AR, because until I ran into some unforseen expenses, I'd planned on doing exactly that.... I wish I'd been able to get it done, just to have been able to see how it would've changed the look of the watch...

That's the key, I think. I've been on a pretty steady run since I first got involved in the forum- and I haven't really cycled into a less active buying phase where I just enjoy what I have. I've been chasing that enigmatic notion of getting "an even better rep" the next time. I think I'm frustrated by the fact I know I'm 'caught', with the new super-reps...and this goes back to our earlier discussion in this thread. I only want the super-reps, because I really like the models that have been introduced, and obviously the high quality finishing, etc... And at the same time I'm frustrated with what I'm seeing with the pricing. It's not the same as when I started an got my Tag Link Chrono or SMP, and could afford to buy a few watches without it being a major financial consideration. That was the whole initial appeal for me. This latest thing with the new Big Bang for some reason is really bugging me. Maybe it's that I can't keep on chasing now, being that they're moving out of my price range, and it's like some heroin junkie who is [censored] that they can't afford the China White or whatever it was that Travolta was sold on in Pulp Fiction. The funny thing is that, when I look at the reps I've got (the cousteau should be here by next week), I'm totally content, and still find myself enjoying the watches I've had for six months or longer. So that tells me that I should take a break and enjoy what I've already got, and re-evaluate what it is that keeps me excited about the hobby...

Believe it or not, the HBB at $400 for the SS version, I actually don't feel is a huge rip-off....if you look at it in the context of the SFSO and Cousteau. That's the big qualifier. The ceramic/rose-gold for twice as much money? That's a straight up rip job. I'm thinking of taking a break from collecting for a while. The new Aquatimer and the new Tag don't really appeal to me a whole lot. The MBW PP Nautilus is awesome, but I've heard that the Chinese makers are planning on doing the range of Nautilus' in the relatively near future. I am going to try to trade my old model, discontinued Breitling Chrono Avenger Ti for a SFSO, and then I think I'm done for probably a year at least. I would have a uPO, a HBB SS, a Cousteau and a SFSO. So basically I'm the biggest hypocrite in the world for rebelling against the new business model of the rep industry, with the over-priced super-reps. But I'm done after I either sell or trade my way into the SFSO. I'm not enjoying it as much, and I don't like where things are heading.....

I would say MBW Patek Nautilus. I'm not even sure it's close...I guess the MBW AP RO Jumbo, or the Vacheron Overseas, but that new Patek is breath-taking in pics.

I've got a HBB that I bought used that was serviced (I'm not sure if it actually was...I have my doubts after The Zigmeister said it was such a [censored] to work with the hands, etc...)...but it cost me $450 shipped. The idea of paying $800 for basically the same watch...with a ceramic bezel and rose-gold plating- it's ridiculous, IMO. Hey, if I was loaded, maybe I wouldn't care. But any way you cut it, it strikes me as very poor value. I can pretty much guarantee you that it's not 'twice' as good as the stainless steel version. I've actually recommended the SS HBB...and if you could get a good deal on a used ceramic SS version, then by all means. But honestly, I've been around for close to a year now, and this is the worst deal in reps that I've seen yet....and there have been some bad deals.

I don't think it's a question of not being able to afford it... If your watch craps out on you within a year, I'll be curious to see whether you have the same opinion as you're voicing now... At least in terms of my own perception, it was never an issue of the price from the stand point of complaining about the premium for the rose-gold and the bezel...it was an issue of the lack of reliability of the movement, as it relates to the price. People will pay what they're willing to pay. I have no problem with a free market...people like yourself make people like myself rich via the stockmarket by purchasing tech stocks in '00 at bubble prices that are totally disconnected to the intrinsic value of the stock. When the stock crashes, or when the $800 HBB craps out, I wonder whose judgment of value will ultimately prevail? And you might even say that those who are smart enough to save their money in the face of poor value are more likely to have the $$ to buy one, should they want one....because that same value-intelligence that keeps them safe and away from such moves, likely correlates with the other financial areas of their life.....but I digress...

When I brought up the idea before, that was the general response- and while I have no doubt that they wouldn't be as skilled as The Zigmeister, I don't think it invalidates the potential value it would have. Even if it was a slightly less professional job, as long as it involved a full disassembly, and used a variety of oils, etc... I can't imagine that the difference would be so signfiicant as to make it a worthless process. Others suggested that there's no way of verifying it was getting done...but if you're a factory owner, and you're specifying what you want done, and eat the cost of the materials and are willing to pay more than 35cents an hour for the labour, then my guess is that we're incorrect to suggest that their system of accountability is any different than our own. We all know there are shady automechanics that charge for parts that aren't needed, etc.... but unless we're going to unravel the social fabric, we've got to believe that it's reasonable to assume that it's possible that work unseen may still be done, even if difficult to verify ourselves. No one has been able to come up with a reason why this wouldn't work that I felt was satisfactory. I'm still waiting.

The more I think about the Rolex situation, the more I think that the reason we haven't seen the same exacting standards is because the average rep buyer wants their rolex, and isn't going to be highly discriminating about the details due to their lower level of knowledge and interest in reps generally. That allows the rep makers to get away with taking a less nuanced approach to production, because their biggest factor on rolex's is volume. The relatively smaller % that are concerned with minute accuracy are the minority, and aren't as big a consideration to the big picture. Now, if you look at the specialty watches like the Cousteau or HBB, they better be exact, because the market that is going to represent the majority of the sales are, by definition, watch enthusiasts. Their willingness to pay the premiums for the exact copies are a function of the accuracy of the reps. Rolex has enough market appeal to the average Joe, that the level of consideration for perfecting what is already available and cheap to make is not signficant enough to justify the outlay of cost.

By-Tor, you made a solid point on the fact that this is a two-way relationship, in terms of the impact that we have on the market itself. That's why I'm always feeling pulled in two directions at once, whenever I find myself getting annoyed with some of the 'new realities' of the changed market place. I don't blame the dealers for the new market dynamics...and as a result, I try to guard against mis-placed aggression, in terms of voicing some of the frustration. There's no question that there are WAY more "research and development" costs associated with the newer models. As a result of that, there's going to be costs that are passed onto us that are less tangible, in terms of trying to rationalize them within the old framework of how value used to be evaluated. Where I find I still end up getting irritated, is when I see the SFSO asian offered for $139 shipped, and I hear the explanation for the difference in cost between the asian and swiss as "the cost of ETA's have skyrocketted" and the AR is so much more money, etc... It's the fact that the logic is inconsistent that ends up causing me to think that the very legit reasons for the increase in price is NOT based on the added R&D costs or the increased accuracy, etc... and are attempts to create a marketing strategy akin to the introduction of new watches in the gen world. Is the "new" gen SMP worth more than the older one? Nope....but it is "new", and carries a price premium as a result. It's funny, cause I used to argue the exact opposite of what I'm arguing now. I used to say that "the new super-reps are categorically different than anything that's been released, and has higher production costs". But if I look back, like what you're saying you were doing by looking at some of your old reviews, and how they would be perceived now...is that the improvements that were made to those models- let's take the Tag Link Chrono, for example, or even the uPO, were just as "new" in terms of requiring additional manufacturing costs and all that...and represented a similar degree of departure from the previous generations, in terms of added costs to make them. Now, just as with technology, there is a higher base platform for reference. I remember when my 486 computer was a huge leap over the 386's....but guess what? The pentium's were no more an exception to the rule, when they were getting their price premium in the new marketplace than the 486's were. I'm suggesting that it's a cognitive issue, whereby we're more inclined to believe that the super-reps are really a departure from the previous industry of replica watches. I'm suggesting that it is a departure, but more in terms of the price dynamic and the expansion of the 'industry' with increased popularity and technology. The difference in the rep world, is that uPO's, or the Tag Link Chronos, commanded a % increase over the previous generation that was (for the sake of argument) 25%. Now, the super reps have closer to a 100% mark up over the previous generation of watches...and I would argue that the asian SFSO is case and point. Maybe 50%. If you start looking at this in terms of percentages, I think the reality hits home more dramatically. In terms of 'x' amount of dollars, the difference for most of us between $250 and $350 doesn't jump out as significantly. But when you look at the fact that there is also a qualitative jump, when you get beyond a certain 'threshold', I think that's the best evidence for a real sign that there has been a change in pricing, regardless of quality. The threshold has been raised. What was previously a baseline, is no longer, and I'm not convinced it is related to production costs. Then again, the BCE is a good value, and is in line with releases from the past, and the premiums they commanded. Same with the uPO, etc..so you might be right about this after all. My bias would've been to agree with you, and was for a time, but the internal logic breaks down, if you put it under the magnifying glass. If they can sell the BCE's, with AR, and 1:1 status, for under three hundred....then the ridiculous premiums on the HBB's, etc.... stop following the logic they put forward themselves for their increased prices. It's completely market driven...the pricing. I honest-to-god believe that if we didn't buy them at these prices, that they would come down to reasonable margins. The Chinese realized that they could get North American consumers to pay North American prices for watches that they could make using Chinese costs...and simply increase their margins. What I've posed as a challenge to the Chinese makers is this: Let us take advantage of Chinese labour and costs in a manner that will ultimately benefit their bottom lines. Get the asian 7750's serviced in the factory and pass the additional cost onto us at cost. The SFSO is case and point. We'll pay twice the price for the ETA version because we know it will last. Ultimately their industry is going to have to move away from the ETA's. Segway out of it by servicing the asian movements as part of the production, and people won't scream bloody murder when you charge $800 for the new HBB. I think the anger is about the potential to end up with a paper weight at the cost of a gen....more than the irritation about getting price gouged for the ceramic/rose-gold. In terms of the Rolex's....I got no explanation for it. There's nothing about the machining of those watches that strikes me as hard to replicate...although perhaps they're SO highly scrutinized because of their legendary status that the minor discrepancies are magnified in our perceptions. Even the SFSO has differences that are probably similar in magnitude to those of the rolex's, it's just that they're more 'tolerable' since the model is less popular and cannonized. Get out the CAD programs, and get the gen dimensions into the machining computers....that's one way around it. I mean, the MBW's are fine on that level, and I'm certain that they are not done using CAD, etc....

Well, if they haven't done it yet, then I am forced to agree that the probability of it ever happening is not great. However, the reality that there's a 1:1 Seadweller in the works suggests to me that there isn't a prohibition on the selection of Rolex's for super-rep production. At least the modern ones. And I would argue that the modern subs are replicated well enough...if not to the same exact standards as some of the best ones. Then there's the fact that the MBW's seem to have seen an increase in their availability- with Neil being able to offer them in limited quantities...and the folklore of sourcing them no longer is a good front for their 'exclusivity' and therefore their prices. I don't buy any conspiracy theories...I think that any factory would love to have the market that would be available to whomever replicates 1:1 the vintages. The only conspiracy theory I *might* buy, would be that Rolex has told the factories that they'll come in and shut down any such attempt, ala the "old factory" 007's.

Bytor, I just skimmed through the thread from last January, and you were right to have brought attention to the realities of the MBW's...in fact, I may have even gone for one if I hadn't read your 'realistic' review of the red 1680 MBW that you did so long ago. So in that sense, I owe you a personal thank-you for not getting caught up in the culture of the MBW's, and the psychological process of having to alter your valuations based on your level of investment...which we're all guilty of in one form or another. I think what's happening, and this DOES relate to the original posters comment, is that the "romance" is over, in terms of the reverance that the rep community is willing to give to the dealers and makers. In the pre-super rep dayz, when this was far less an 'industry' and more of a hobby, customers (and our members) were willing to grant certain leniencies on certain aspects of full-disclosure (little white lies...) and with pricing of certain models. Well, the makers and dealers have changed the dynamic...and not necessarily through their own fault, but also in an effort to give us more of what we crave (accuracy, quality, etc...). We now pay more money for the reps, and as a result, the dynamics of collecting are different. There are more trusted dealers, some even in the US now, and price is the name of the game now. Guess what? It's [censored]-for-tat. You want to charge $800 bucks for an asian movement HBB? don't expect your customer base to give you the same benefit of the doubt when it comes for letting the 'little things' slide. I think part of the problem is that the super-rep factory is too far removed from their customer base. I think we could impact that if we organized some sort of boycott, but they bank on the notion that it would be impossible. Looking at the pre-order for the HBB rose-gold/ceramic would seem to be evidence enough. I'm just personally frustrated. And I don't even blame the dealers. From what I gather, they represent a minority demographic of the factory's production. Not an insignificant minority, mind you, and I still think that there may end up being something of a move away from the price-gouging that some of these models represent. In terms of the comments about the Rolex stuff, there's a logic gap here...you've got to admit. There HAS to be an explanation that we're not picking up on, but that the rep-makers are cognizant of, and is influencing them to avoid putting the same level of care into their Rolex reproductions. Maybe the MBW suppliers bought off someone, somewhere? I dunno... I don't expect them to be able to get all of the models right. But even the most basic of businessmen, and we're assuredly dealing with some folk who are very good business people, as evidenced by their service and ability to select good models for "super reps"- would be able to see the potential market for the vintages. Could it be the potential for the secondary used parts market to get flooded with clones of parts? It's already happened with the superdomes, has it not? Clark's or whatever are aftermarket parts that fit the gens and are 90% there. Maybe we underestimate the Rolex engineers? And they've really been able to built quality into their watches by making the reproductions very difficult? I might buy that if I didn't own a Big Bang and a Cousteau (as well as most of the other best reps at one point or another).