mezzanine

I will regret selling my old school Breitling Chrono Avenger Titanium in my desperate need for the Cousteau.... I flip flop on it daily. I am considering doing an ETA swap. Except I can't do an ETA swap. And I have no money. That's the only reason I'd even consider selling the Breitling in the first place...

My other quick point is this- Is the Hublot Big Bang twice as good as an average $200 rep from one of our dealers? Probably not, from a value standpoint. But that doesn't tell the whole story. There's a 'critical threshold' in replica watches, from the time I've been around, where the watch makes qualitative leaps in believability compared to gens. An example would be the first watch I got, which was from Flav, and was an Omega SMP 007. It was super nice, but it was a couple of years old. I then got an ultimate Planet Ocean. It was on another level. These new ones are another 'leap'. Quite simply, they're closer to genuine in appearance. I would say the difference from the average rep of about a year to two years ago, which probably represents a standard for mos of us (or at least me?) in reference to some of these newer ones, can be subjectively stated as follows: the old ones are 80% of the overall feel and quality and appearance/complexity of a uPO/TagLinkCh/Ingy....or the 'first tier' super reps. The 'first tier' super reps are about 80% of the quality of the current top tier super reps- the HBB and Cousteau. Between the older reps and the current high priced super reps, there is a very significant difference. However, like technology, it is an incremental difference. Part of it is a function of being able to replicate more elaborate, and therefore more striking watches. This measure reflects the actual complexity of the watch 'capable' of being repped, which accounts for the 'technology' dimension of the criteria I laid out before.

Being argumentative is the only way this board is going to get back on track.. In terms of the question about the difference between the super reps and previous generations of reps: -I don't think the cost of super reps are that far out of line with conventional new-model prices. Examples like the Ferrari Chrono, the BCE, uPO, even the Steelfish. These are not much different then the Ingy, Tag Link Chrono, new Pams, etc... So in that sense, I do agree with the point that there is a 'spectrum' of watches. What I'm really referring to, when I refer to a super rep, and I should have clarified this further, initially- are the highly detailed watches that are developed in conjunction with the forum's input that are based on highly complex designs. The intricacy of the Big Bang is really something else, when you see it in person. My honest to god reaction when I first got it was to sell all of my reps. That's not so much the amazingness of the replica, so much as it is the HBB. That watch would stand out and be a personal favourite of mine if I was to randomly walk into a watch store not knowing anything. It's construction is on another level- but that's true of the real HBB vs. the Planet Ocean, etc... Then you look at the Cousteau. Again, you have a next-level of complexity design, with the inner rotating bezel. That is new technology, like the newest intel processor. It has not been done before. While the Cousteau is not as complex from a construction standpoint as the Hublot, it makes up for it with a high level of detail. 'Fit & Finish' in the rep world I'd imagine means exactly the type of things you suggested. In the case of the Cousteau, there are a myriad of fonts, prints, complex lume applications, an actual piece of wood sealed on the back, a molded rubber strap, etc... that are extremely accurate on this rep. In a sense it's 'super' because they factory makes them 1:1, and because of Angus' input from the forum to the maker. There are so many details on watches like this, that to compare their construction or the obvious work that goes into them to the previous generation is not realistic, IMO. That being said, I can understand the pricing problem. Believe me. I don't like it any more than you do.

I disagree with some of the comments. First, I do not think that the previous generation of very good replicas is on the same level as the HBB or Cousteau. I own or have owned, most of the reps that are talked about as being 'super' reps of the last generation- Tag Link Chrono, Ingy, Breitling Chrono Av. Titanium, portugese, uPO, etc.. Each of these are nice, but none of them really compare to a piece like the HBB or some of the other watches mentioned. I would say there are three major reasons: 1) AR crystals- this is one of the major differences that makes a significant improvement. Also adds cost to the value of the rep. 2) Fit and Finish- this is hard to quantify, and probably the biggest thing that is missing from the perspective of someone who hasn't owned one of the more recent super reps. 3) Technical improvement- any time you're doing something like creating accurate replicas, if that's your goal, you're going to get better at it as time goes on. An interesting observation: I haven't heard very many complaints from people who have actually shelled out the cash for the HBB. Most of the people that I've heard complain about the HBB have either never purchased it or held one in reality. How does that work? What it suggests is that there is something that those that have actually purchased the rep know, that others do not. Interestingly, if I'm talking with a member on this board, and they're a long time member and we're chatting reps through PM, usually I'll suggest to them that they get their HBB if they don't have one yet. I think the effect would be similar to if we had taken an Ultimate Planet Ocean back in time and gave it to forum members when the best thing they'd seen was the perfect sub or something. All those that had not owned a uPO would probably be up in arms about the extra cost of the Omega. No one is arguing that there is not a point of absurdity that can be reached with reps. I think there is no real debate on this point. That being said, there are some reps that show no actual difference for being more expensive. My point is that there IS a difference to why the super reps are more costly, even if you don't think they offer good value.

All that is needed for dealers to be able to do the bracelet is an endlink, I believe. Then you could use the GST SS bracelet...at least I believe with the gen, that would work. The case sizes mess me up a bit, and I believe you'd have to 're-brush' the bracelet?

Sweet ass. Now this shall never leave my wrist. Seriously!!!

Me neither, but then I started to wonder about the whole idea of trying to find a way to exploit the cheaper Chinese labor, and the less-than-enthusiastic response, which is probably justifiably for some other legit reasons...but my intention had been to try to get real cheap servicing (not the dip and swish or whatever) on *only* these super rep chronos. I also DO still want to hopefully use your service, and see the additional value you offer vs. some guy in a stall in Ghangzhou...no doubt. Dealers like Josh, and I believe Puretime, already offer pre-servicing (I believe) and both are what I would consider trustworthy. I just think they should offer it for WAY cheaper on the super reps, where the values of these beautiful watches like the HBB or the Cousteau or the TT EVO's, etc... are compensated for, in terms of the gap between the quality of the case, materials, finish, vs. the poor QC asian 7750 movements. r11co, I hear where you're coming from, and I went back to check Neil's points, and for me, the best point was the one about the volume of watches these dealers do, and how much of an inconvenience it would be to actually have to start organizing something like that. This isn't unprecedented, by the way. Belial2k was a dealer on the darkside that specialized in this type of thing, although from the states, I believe. I still feel that this is largely negated by doing specific orders only for those customers that are ordering an asian 7750 super rep. I believe this would still represent a smaller portion of the average dealers business at this point, but I could be mistaken. It's interesting that we, as customers, are helping to find ways to figure out reasons why this 'couldn't' work, as opposed to how it possibly could, or what type of decent alternatives there are. One of the decent alternatives, I guess, is to to do a swap for a swiss movement. Then there is the issue of the hands, though- which I'm still not clear on. Another is a straight swap of another asian if it breaks down for a 100 bucks. Thats just stupid, IMO. But servicing that asian initially for slightly less than that would seem to be "the next step" IMO. I believe the dealers would increase their sales volume on watches like the ceramic HBB by throwing in that type of service. They may not have control of the pricing from the factories, but I fear for THEIR business, if they're on the hook for those prices with the asian 7750 movement. Ultimately, you want everyone to do well. I think the whole AR push did that. It brought about one of the major 'finishing' touches I think we needed.

I disagree. I would challenge anyone that has held a HBB rep to say it is not one of the most impressive replicas to date. The only high quality reps I'm aware of that are from Taiwan are the MBW vintage rolexes. Is that correct? There were some initial quality control issues with some of the Big Bangs, but mine sure has none- and it possesses a level of finish I have not yet seen in a rep. I own or have owned a lot of what are considered to be very good reps. Tag Link Chrono, IWC Ingy, uPO, 'perfect' sub, Breitling Chrono Avenger Ti, etc... To be honest, even though some of them are closer to me, like the Breitling, none of them are close in terms of quality. I don't imagine if you polled owners that you would find that much dissent. I haven't got either of the ultimate Breitlings, but both seem an obvious step up from the previous generation of reps. I don't think either are likely to be *quite* in the territory of either the HBB or the IWC Cousteau...but we'll have to see. Basically, I'm saying that I perceive there to be THREE tiers now in reps, at least at the top. Everything before the super reps were of a 'relatively' similar quality. Now I think there is a level above that, currently occupied by watches like the two ultimate Breitlings, probably even the uPO on the fringes, and some of the other ones like the Pam 092, the Chopard, etc... However, I think there is a level beyond that, even. This rarefied air is occupied by the HBB and now this IWC. The MBW ROO I'm sure belongs, but is disqualified because it is so grossly overpriced, IMO. Although that would fit with your Taiwanese theory, in terms of quality.

SMP would be my vote, as well. I would send it in for AR treatment, though. I don't care if it has single side on the gen, I would get it double-sided. It makes Omegas.

Also, I don't buy the argument that since it only costs 100 bucks for the movement, that replacing it when it breaks down is a better option than having it serviced for around that, or slightly less than that price. I don't mind if the arguments are sound, but I see a lot of vacuous stuff going on here in terms of actual reasoning.

You know, I've been thinking about this some more, and while I'd almost been a convert to the pre-dominant opinion that it wouldn't work and is ill-conceived, I still think it's a cop out. Are we going to undue to the binding ties of society for the watchsmith? Come on. Don't over complicate this. I'm talking about shopping out a watchsmith that you're going to develop a relationship with- you're going to be a huge provider of work for him, providing sustenance for his family. Does the fact that there are crooked mechanics mean that we should stop taking our cars in for oil changes? I would think that this mentality would be absurd for anyone who has seen the benefit in sending their asian chrono into The Zigmeister for servicing. Honestly, I don't even care if my HBB has been serviced, being that I paid the same as I would have for it because it was slightly used, than if it was new and unserviced. But I do feel WAY better about it. Explain that one to me. If I've been frauded, so be it. Allow me the chance to feel as though this watch has been serviced for an additional 'cost sensitive' fee that is designed to bring congruency to the fit and finish of these asian chrono Super Reps. If we can't establish some degree of trust with the long time dealers here by now, that they would ensure that the service was being done...that would be an insult to the dealers that obviously pride themselves on their reputation. Most of our dealers 'seem' honest enough to me that they would not set this up as an elaborate ruse. Not only that, but being that they're trustworthy, they would only deal with people that they trust- when such significant work-orders under THEIR name are to be involved. Guess what guys, the market has changed towards expensive super reps, and most of the time the more expensive ones are going to be chronographs. ETA's are on the way out, and a well serviced asian, unless our resident expert is incorrect (highly doubtful), is not a bad second option. Chinese labour is cheap. There are people at the 'marketplace' that will do it for you on the spot- are there not? I don't think this should be as easily dismissed as it has been. *edit: mods, I just had a bad thought...and it totally wasn't my intention with this thing to undercut any of The Zigmeister's business, seriously- if this would do that, then please remove this thread. Or at least this post. losing The Zigmeister for this type of service would be a bad trade for everyone here.

I like the Nautilus, personally- but a fine watch none the less.

This will be mine. Oh yes. This will be mine. This is the first shot that I've personally seen that illustrates the significant subdial texture difference (?), vs. the dial of the watch. I hope that the rep gets that right- because subdial texture is an absolute must for any chronograph design. I said that only because I felt guilty for my wayne's world greedy guitar comments. Not that humour should be considered a value-less contribution...it's the guilty capitalist.

I don't think this type of anecdotal reporting is at all accurate. My suggestion is to talk to the dealers about how often they get customers emailing them about problem movements. They're the ones that see the volume, and probably have a pretty good quantitative idea. I saw a portugese go for so low that I couldn't believe it the other day, because of the seconds at six thing. River's got one for sale that is a wicked deal- Ingy chrono, though. I'm not recommending the movement...but there are some deals to be had. Freeze the bloody seconds at 6 with the money you save.

kruzer, isn't your price estimate on the swiss movement and swap a little low? Maybe you're doing the swap yourself? Apparently there is no need to use different hands? That was something that came up recently that defied what I had previously read. I'm probably going to go asian, it's just a matter of whether I'm going to have it serviced. Probably not...although I hate the sound of unserviced asian 7750's. When I say I hate the sound, I'm not speaking metaphorically...I think the asian 7750 often sounds loose (rotor?) and cheap. My serviced HBB does not seem to be as bad.

Sometimes it takes a new watch coming out to make you realize that your watch habit has got worse. Not biting on that Cousteau is taking every bit of willpower right now.

Ever since the super reps started to arrive, I think I've been going through a change in my rep collecting habits. Yes, not unlike the junkie who is craving their latest fix, this newer, more potent (but more expensive) "product" has changed the way I'm approaching my collection. Whereas pre-SR I would choose watches that I *liked* as my primary guide for selection, the quality of the rep itself didn't enter as much into the question. Obviously each rep has it's own flaws, but as long as you're ordering from one of our dealers, I felt it was better to go after the stuff you liked, rather than some marginally more 'advanced' rep. I feel things are different now. There is a major difference in the quality of the super reps and the more traditional reps that served as the foundational pattern for most of our collecting habits. Now, I want to have two or three super reps, and maybe one modded rep, and that might be it. I'm now find it more rewarding to get the latest super rep, regardless of brand or even design. Most of the watches that are chosen for the 1:1 treatment are pretty popular and carefully selected, anyways. I'm almost starting to think that my future rep buying pattern is going to be more like a two-watch rotation, where one of the watches is rotated out every six months for a new one. My plan is to rotate my HBB with an IWC Cousteau....and when I think what other watches I really want taking wrist time from those two...there really aren't many. If I can get the crystal on my Ingy AR'd, that one is done and enters 'super' territory. I never would have believed I would not want to wear my Tag Link Chrono any more...that was the watch that got me started. I'm going to keep a Cartier for a dress watch, but other than that, I think the sales board is going to be seeing some activity soon. Time to upgrade my membership. I want to have $1000 worth of reps at any given time. I'm happy to make that two super reps, and just rotate those. So who is looking for an old model Breitling Chrono Avenger Ti in near-mint condition? Wait a minute, that one might count as a super rep.....

I *believe* that Angus might be offering movement servicing for $150, and I also seem to remember Josh having servicing as an available option...but I'm talking about something different. I'm talking about offering customers servicing for like $75 on these specific 7750 super-rep watches. If it's a $200 asian chrono, like an SMP chrono or a Tag Link Chrono, fine...I don't care about the servicing. Even a BCE ultimate I would let go. But not a HBB or an IWC Cousteau, or an AP ROO, if the good version of that ever comes out. I really believe this is something that should have already happened.

With the new, very expensive "super reps", we need a more reliable option than the standard 7750. You've tried to address this by offering a swiss option at cost- but really, that's starting to enter a grey-area as far as value in a rep. I think you understand this. Everything I've been led to believe suggests that the pricing on these is, to a significant degree, determined by the factory. I accept this. What we need from you, is to find a way to build some value/reliability into these 7750 using the resources you already have. The challenge: Start offering cheap servicing of the 7750 super-reps for as low a price as you can find. I KNOW that Chinese labour is cheap, so I don't believe that the guy in Ghangzhou will offer his services for only slightly less than the most-excellent The Zigmeisterzumba...who is a fellow canadian citizen. I know The Zigmeister is overwhelmed to even keep up at his exceptional rate. The dealer to source out cheap servicing of these movements will corner the market for 7750 super reps. It's that simple. You may not be able to negotiate with the factory/maker, but I know that you could build value in for your loyal customers in other ways.

I have a gen one I don't think I'm going to use. Brand new. Nice quality feel to the rubber.

Mine has been totally fine...it will be for sale soon.

I think this rep will end up being available for around $300 US within the next two months....which is something that I don't think I ever anticipated happening with the HBB, even when it was pretty much assumed that there would be an eventual price drop.

Here's the thing: I have actually defended the pricing of the Hublot Big Bang- at least the SS model. My rationale is that the watch is truly 'twice' as good as the average rep. With this watch, I don't believe that the price/desirability are consistent. I don't think it's $200 better than a BCE ultimate. Do I believe that it's truly an awesome rep? I don't doubt it. I am more than willing to wait six months for one of these. I appreciate the communication process Angus has forged with the creation of new reps. It's unfortunate that their suppliers are making this difficult for them- as I've come to understand (?) that they're largely subject to the pricing set by the maker/factory.

Hmmm... I like bolder watches...but I'm not sure about the white sub-dials. I like the orange...I wish the the Cousteau was available a *little* more orange...but I like the story of the Cousteau, and without that, the minor aesthetic difference is negligible. If the lume on the rep was going to be really good, then the '06 version holds more appeal to me. Without the lume being really good, the orange sort of compensates. One tangent issue. In the future, when these guys are taking suggestions for a new rep that so obviously needs superluminova, but the cost of which is going to be prohibitive...we should make the suggestion that we use an lower cost alternative to superluminova that is 80% of the result for 30% of the cost- something that the guy in the factory can actually be rationally persuaded will sell him more watches, as an investment on his end. /endrant

I'm shocked one hasn't. If I hadn't purchased one that had been serviced, it would've been immediately off to you. Can't believe that smart members (probably more likely to be willing to pay for the HBB due to cost/interest ratio), wouldn't have their watches sent in for servicing. I worked at the Brantford casino through university, so I don't gamble.