mezzanine

I wish I was able to find the post where The Zigmeister talked about the effect of the transfer gears with the HBB...can't find it anywhere. I had always assumed that it wasn't that big an issue, being that the second hand position was un-altered. It seemed intuitive to me that the biggest problems would be as a result of the stress of moving that primary function. What I can't get over with these watches/prices, is that they aren't serviced. If you're going to charge gen-like prices, then you should pay some cheap Chinese labour to service the asian movement as it is on the production line. I have said that before, and I will keep saying it. I see no reason why they shouldn't be servicing those movements and passing it on to the consumer at cost. I don't think we would see the level of indignation about these prices that we do, if they were serviced watches. We all know that the A7750 is a roll-of-the-dice if it is not serviced. To have that degree of risk associated with a rep of this cost is what is really galling people. It's not the premium on the ceramic bezel or the rose-gold plating (in my judgment). That too is inflated, but I don't think it's at the core of why people are angry about this. Super rep Factory listen up: You need to service these asian 7750 movements while they are being installed, or whenever it is convenient for you. Charge us the $50 that it will cost you in Chinese labour. Pass it onto us. Increase the cost of your watches by $50. People don't get as upset about the price increase as they do about the fact that the you're charging gen prices for watches that may crap out in a year. We'll pay the $$ for the good reps, if we know they're not time-bombs. Look at the premium you're getting on the SFSO's. Don't tell me that the price of the ETA movement is twice as much as the entire asian version of the rep. And yet...people are still willing to buy those in higher %'s because they know they're getting something that will last. The rep factory has failed to bring the finishing and production values of the super-reps in line with the reliability. I was willing to let that go for a while, because I understood that the 'super-reps' are a departure from the old business model of selling reps (basically, you invest in what's on the outside of the watch that will sell it visually). However, I think we should seriously boy-cott this [censored] in a systematic way until what's inside the watch catches up to this new business model. You've had long enough to bring the reliability issue into alignment with your pricing.

I hear ya...I would wear the watch- it's not so much that I view it as bandwagoning...that doesn't bother me, if it's a good watch, it's a good watch. I will say, the overly positive response to the watch HAS had an influence on my potential buying decision. I can't figure out to what degree the excitement about the rep is a result of the lack of super-reps is because of the lack of ETA powered reps. The HBB and Cousteau are asian, and are high priced. The perceived value as a result is probably weaker- even if the watches themselves, I would venture to guess, are more impressive in person. My whole thing with the SFSO is the % it costs in relation to the gen. I'm more into reps where the cost of the gen prohibits the purchase of the gen. Even though I wouldn't pay for the SFSO gen (not because of the watch itself, just out of my budget), the fact that the rep is close to 25% of the price of a used gen of the same model makes me hesitate on principle. Some folks don't regard that in their purchase- which I have no qualm with- but for me, the value (which is why I'm into reps) decreases as that % increases.

You bastards are going to make me have to go and get a SFSO, even though I've sworn that I'm not going to jump on that bandwagon. The white dial and brown leather is something spectacular in a watch whose gen price is so reasonable. I hate the idea of spending $350 bucks on a rep whose second-hand gen is available for quite a reasonable price.

Another point I would make is that the rep business is most like the technology sector, from a business standpoint. New models command a price premium because of their use of more sophisticated manufacturing. Just like the newest CPU on the market, the real price premiums have shifted towards the super-reps that are made using a more exacting standard. Once the factory that makes the super-reps realizes that they can retroactively apply this model to past watches that have come up short , from a gen/rep comparison standpoint, they will move into another phase. The best SMP we have, sucks....Make another good one, and you'll sell lots. Same goes with the Breitling Chrono Avengers, etc... I agree with their rationale of going with newer watches...such as the HBB and Cousteau, etc....as they are playing on the sales figures of the genuines to capitalize on the technology-model that they're mimicking along with the real watch industry. Once they realize that there are some watches that have similar sales "moats" around them (like the vintage rollies), we'll see another "golden era". Another problem is that the movements have to catch up with the finishing on the new reps. The ETA's are too expensive now, and are on their way out. If you're sticking a Fiero engine into a Ferrari, people aren't stupid, and as a seller you're not going to get full profit potential. Yes, for a long time it has been "out of sight, out of mind" in terms of their sales rationale as an industry. But the problem people have with paying the big $$ for the rose gold/ceramic HBB that Angus listed is that we all know it has a 7750 asian that is not serviced. Take advantage of Chinese labour. I've said this before, but the factory itself should be paying guys $50 bucks a pop (absolute max) to service their asian movement super reps while they're in production. They are failing to adapt to the new market that they themselves have created by failing to do so. They are undercutting their own margins and sales figures as a result. If I were a maker of super reps, I would pass on that service at cost to the end user. My HBB, instead of being $400, would be $450 with a serviced movement...and those would be the only ones I'd make. Sometimes it doesn't benefit your bottom line to seek maximum profitability on a per unit basis. Sometimes you increase your profits by selling more volume with a slightly decreased margin, and this is what I believe such a move would result in for the factory.

The statement is a little dramatic...regardless of whatever shifts may be taking place. My perspective is that there have been a few factors that have influenced the shift in perception that a whole lot has changed over the last few months. 1) Rep makers are not seeking the advise of the community for the development of reps. This is the biggest one...and it's also why I feel that what you're describing is a shift in perception, rather than the business itself. If we'd been looking at early sample photos of the new Aquatimer and the new Tag, we wouldn't be having this conversation, as there would've been fodder for our daily visits to RWG etc.... For whatever reason, the makers have deemed it as hurting their bottom line to have that level of participation from our end. Simple as that. 2) There is a law of diminishing returns of watch models that are still left to be repped. Angus mentioned that they're doing a modern 1:1 Seadweller, which represents a re-hashing of an old model. The market for re-hashes is invariably going to be weaker, from a sales standpoint. This is flawed thinking, IMO, on the part of the rep makers. How much money would the factory that has pumped out the HBB/Cousteau/SFSO, etc.. make if they were to do a 1:1 copy of the vintage rolexes- specifically 1680 and 1665. People have been paying huge premiums to get their MBW's, because that's the only game in town. The MBW's are nice, but there is NO REASON why a smart maker should not be all over the idea of applying their perfectionism to the vintages. The dials on the red MBW's suck. The white ones aren't a ton better. This would be the biggest $$ maker possible for a smart rep factory, but I think they don't do it, because of how those parts would find their way into the secondary rolex used part market. Making an acrylic crystal that is on spec with the gen would probably outstrip their total sales of some lesser known watches. Get the case backs right. Make the bezel assembly like gen. Charge huge money for them. You could charge HBB money and not have near the production costs, IMO.

Initially I disagreed with this notion....being that the best gens that are under $1000 aren't all that appealing to me, outside of an SMP or Sinn. But the more I see of the trend in pricing, the more I'm inclined to side with your rationale. It's the re-sale value. You never know what the market is going to be like for reps in a couple of years. I have avoided buying the SFSO because of this exact fact. Even though the rep is fantastic, it's approximately 25% of the gen. I agree with the notion of buying superreps if they're watches you really like, and are over 5000 bucks. Pug, I'd be shocked if it's under 300. I expect it will be around 300, but doubt that it will come out under that mark. If it does, I'll regret my recent Cousteau purchase.

Does the gen have double AR? I hope that the rep does, if the gen has a double AR'd crystal. Agreed that the bracelet is a necessity on this one.

This is one rep that I "should" be pretty hyped on, but for whatever reason I am just not. IWC's have really grown on me, but this one is more on the end of the spectrum of their line that I tend to not be as excited by. They're more traditional and 'classic', but they're also relatively plain. My fave reps are usually the less classic models. More of the Cousteau Divers flavour. AR has become a 'deal-break' issue for me, and it was since I joined the forum. I agree with the post about the uPO. It really isn't comparable to the gen, in terms of AR, and as a result it is a pretty big sign of being fake. It's not even about that for me...I love AR generally. For example, the Patek Nautilus surely doesn't come with AR on the gen, but if I get one, I am going to have it AR'd. I can only imagine how awesome the blue-ish dial would look with a solid double coated crystal. Maybe I'll come around on the 3717, but unless it was a double-AR'd crystal, it will get supplanted by something more modern and 'flashy'. I'm also probably a little younger than the average member (25 y/o), which may factor in...

Even though the gen probably doesn't have AR, when I get mine, I'm going to get it double AR'd. Will be the blue/green dial ala ubi and others....god I want that watch. I would rather pay whatever it costs for the Patek than close to that much for the Breitling SFSO. Even though the Breitling is undoubtedly nice, I think the PP is a better value....

With the seconds @3 (although it hasn't yet been reviewed), as well as the possibility of an updated "slow beat" 7750 (not 'official', but some aesthetic differences compared to the old one), and the fact that the Omega SMP Chrono has improved decorating of the movement on recent models....are there changes going on in the movements of our reps? The new high-beat asian 7750 was a definite improvement over the older generation 7750, and the replica 2824 is supposedly pretty good compared to the ETA standard. Are we seeing another generation of rep movements? I know there is a lot of hypoethesizing going on, and no one other than The Zigmeister and maybe a few others are qualified to be able to say- Here's hoping....especially with the seconds @3 and a slow-beat 7750 that wouldn't require new hands to be swappable to swiss.... What would be even better is if the gap between the swiss and the chinese was reduced to such a degree that it wouldn't be necessary. Unlikely, but there's a need for it with the ETA shortages. Also, it seems that some manufacturers were substituting Selita movements for ETA's and not representing that there was a difference between them in their pricing, etc...

It would be awesome if there was a good slow-beat 7750. The new asian 7750 is not as bad as I think the folklore has suggested, in terms of reliability. There is really no other option for the Chinese manufacturers to pony up and put some effort into their movement construction, etc... with the ETA's becoming overpriced and discontinued. I have an old-school Breitling Chrono Avenger Ti that would be up for a new movement if this was to be true...current one has been fine, but rather than pay 300 bucks for a swiss, 100 would be a good option that would make the replacement economical.

I can understand the concern about the Cousteau and HBB becoming dated, but I don't agree with it. Sometimes watch design truly progresses, and I feel both pieces are more contemporary and reflect a higher level of technical sophistication than some of the classics. I'm not saying that anyone should throw out their sub, but as far as replicas are concerned, they represent a niche market in the watch world that I would otherwise not be able to enter. If I was buying a gen, I would likely go after something more classic. One other thing that hasn't been discussed much- but that I *almost* created a separate thread for...is that the Aquatimer represents the first "super rep" to come from a different factory, does it not? The reason this is significant is that it brings in competition to what had previously been a cornered monopoly market. That should have benefits for all of us, from a future price stand point. There's been a lot of discussion about the escalating costs of the newer reps, and this seems to me to be a positive sign towards a potential movement back towards something more reasonable. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure the factory doing the Aquatimer is looking at it as a means of being able to 'share' in the monopoly (high priced) market...but that won't last for terribly long...

I know this is an abstract debate, as the Aquatimer hasn't yet been released. But assuming that the rep maker does a good job on the watch, and there aren't any major issues (outside of possibly quality control ), which IWC model would you go with? For myself, it's more an issue of size, rather than any design merits of one model over the other. I like big watches- I have a HBB, a Pam, uPO, etc...but for some reason, the Cousteau looks like it sits even bigger on the wrist than these already-large watches. That has me wondering whether it's a better idea to wait for the 42mm Aquatimer Chrono to come out. If anyone who owns both the Cousteau and HBB can comment, that would be excellent. There's another question that I'm not sure of from inspecting pictures of both watches... The Slevin looks as though it's case slopes upward at the point between the bezel and the case. Sort of like the GST....creating the effect of the watch having a large degree of thickness in the bezel. I've heard the profile view described as "the hockey puck effect". I'm sure I've thoroughly screwed up my description of what I'm trying to describe... But I'm trying to determine whether the Cousteau has less of an upward angle effect, or if the increased diameter of the Cousteau (it looks like it tapers after the rotating inner bezel) is basically the same as the design of the Aquatimer, with the extra 'ring' on the outside of the bezel simply adding area to the watch. I think I like the overall look of the Cousteau better, but the size has me a little concerned-

The hands were the most obvious thing I could see that were of poor quality by doing a basic visual on the watch when I received it. That, and the stickers on the rotor...obviously. Believe it or not, if the clasp wasn't so damn uncomfortable, I'd still think that it was a decent watch if bought used. I know that flies in the face of convention. I really do believe it's 'twice as good' as normal $200 reps in appearance.

Totally agree.

I don't like getting too caught up in the 'purpose' of the watch....other than having a dress watch as a separate category. If a noob is reading this and wants four bad-ass reps without having to do the research- 1) Hublot Big Bang 2) IWC Cousteau 3) Rolex "Great White" MBW 'modded' 4) Breitling SFSO or uPO

The Zigmeister is your man for everything but the AR coating. Apparently the AR is sufficient straight out of the box... Of course, that would not be sufficient for me, as I'm addicted to AR and MUCH prefer to have double-sided industrial grade.

I'd love to see if anyone has a chieftang modded version with double AR. Anyone?

Not sure which one I prefer. Does this mean that people who purchase the '06 version will be receiving a 'second generation' Cousteau? There were rumours that there would be a revised version of the first version- dealing with some of the QC issues, etc...

Really nice watch.....I never thought that IWC would really grow on me as a brand, but it indeed is beginning to. I sold my Ingy recently to a fine member here. I loved the regular SS Ingy, but I LOVE titanium watches, so when the AMG Ti came out, I knew that it would displace the SS as my Ingy of choice. Not yet, as the Cousteau is ahead on the list....but it is a tremendous watch. One issue I've got with the AMG Ti, is that I *believe* that it has a *light* AR coating, is that correct? The nice thing about the SS one is that you can get the crystal AR'd, which is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY for this watch..IMO it's MUCH more significant then the datewheel issue. My fear with the titanium version is that the ETA non-chrono has been said to have a light coating which would make doing the crystal right with an AR coating a much more labour intensive prospect. Cheers to a nice watch and nice pics. I'd never thought the strap could really justify taking off the beautiful band that IWC uses....but it really is a nice way to change up the look of the watch.

These are the best wrist shots I think I've seen of the Cousteau... It really is a nice watch. It's also amazing to see it next to the GST and the actual size difference....not small! I would be curious to get your impression of this one vs. the Hublot Big Bang. I've got the Big Bang, and it has changed my rep collecting habit. I am now interested only in watches that can displace the HBB on my wrist for significant periods of time...and other than the IWC CD, there aren't many reps out there that are worthy.

Interestingly enough, one brand I generally wouldn't be comfortable wearing into an AD, and actually have, are Omegas. A couple of people here have listed them. Albeit the uPO is good...and you wouldn't get called out...the lack of double AR or AR in general on the Omega reps is a very obvious thing, if you've seen the gens. In terms of reps you could purchase right now, ready made. I would say the new Breitlings, the Tag Link Chrono, I'm sure the Cousteau would be fine....

actually, now that I go look, you had told me that already- oh this is not good....time to stop working 60+ hours.... I'm losing my memory.. sorry man- she's still yours if you want her Just get Jacques to stay out of my ear for a minute....it's pretty muffled, and sounds like it's got some heavy doppler effect going on coming from that deep below the ocean's surface, but he's calling to me none-the-less "Roberre, tu et l'acheter le montre de IWC"...

I had thought that I might be selling a black 22X20mm rubber Breitling strap to another member, but I haven't heard back from him about it. I'll let mine go for the same price- or trade, depending...