By-Tor

Tribal my friend...you're OBSESSED with 16610. Great work as usual mate, looks really nice. But that goes without saying.

I think it's a close call with the TAG Link Chrono. Very, very close. SMP Chronograph isn't far behind, either. I'm really looking forward to the upcoming Chronomat Evolution and Steelfish SuperOcean too. Let's hope they're the new challengers.

You may be right... it's probably the best rep ever. But it doesn't make the 4th Gen look bad at all (imho). Only the bracelet and clasp on the 4th Gen are slightly inferior. Yeah, hands and pearl aren't as good either... but those are minutiae. Put the 4th Gen on a rubber strap... there, problem solved. This you have probably seen already. Another comparison shot (same theme). This is probably one of the favourite PO shots of mine. I got lucky with this one.

Thanks mate!!! Nice pic. Sub is such a nice and easy watch to photograph since it's all black and white... and matte surfaces.

@corgi: Sure the Rolex reps sell. First: I'm sure the overall sales of Perfect Clones and Trustytime doesn't come from this forum entirely. Second... we get lots of newbies who aren't really interested in watches in a larger scale. They're just looking to buy their quick "status symbol" rep Sub to impress their workmates with... and disappear. But Rolex reps aren't very accurate reps... and they're not selling that much among the seasoned members anymore... or generate much interest. Only about a year ago almost half of the traffic was about Rolex. That was the point of the initial post, not questioning the popularity of Rolex generally. Even the crap rep Rolexes sell quite well... and that might be one the exact reasons why they don't improve.

How is that "thread crapping"? I love your Tudor. I have already traded this watch too (yeah I'm young and restless). I want to buy a gen like yours eventually. They're not that expensive, really (although the prices have increased lately).

Take your time Thomas. We really don't need these changes now... or tomorrow... or even next week. Just when the time is right for you. No stress. And thanks again for all your efforts.

The sports Oyster line hasn't lost its appeal for me at all, these watches are just as great as ever. But like docblackrock stated the new "supreme bling" approach they have chosen (that was clearly visible in Basel) was utterly embarrassing. Instead of improving their great Oyster line (which is Rolex for most WIS) they only concentrate on making laughable pimp watches for tasteless, superrich transvestites. Leopard Daytona was the final testament to that. They also put a lot of effort to design the new, unattractive Cellini line. Many of those watches have cheap quartz movements inside. Meanwhile their most faithful customers have begged for a clasp that doesn't feel like it's from a $30 watch for $5K Submariner and GMT Master... for decades. If we again take a comparison from the car world... would Mercedes bring a pink 600SL with chicken yellow wheels and golden steering wheel & pedals to the annual Frankfurt car show... and present it as their flagship model? Yes... there are some tasteless "specially tuned" Mercedes cars... customers can ruin their cars just as they want of course... but the factory would never ruin their prestige, style, legacy and reputation by doing something like that "officially". True, Rolex movements are proven to be reliable and sturdy. But then again so are Miyotas for 1/100 of the price. There are automatic Seikos that are decades old. Horologically they're good, approved and many times proven inhouse movements, but nothing that impressive, really. But in the end of the day I don't think any of this stuff affects their sales. It can affect negatively in their image inside the WIS circles though. But I guess WIS make about 0,5 percent of their total sales anyway. My father buys Rolex (and only Rolex) because for him it's the only real luxury watch brand in the world. So they're definitely doing something right. "It takes a year to build Rolex" etc.

Yes. It would make things logical, searching for information easier... and also make these sections visually attractive for casual browsers. I'd say those "photo gallery" subforums are the most important sections of the RWG already. And they have never been just "photo galleries", either. Still... for the average readers they're almost invisible in the forum layout (although they contain TONS of information). Same as "Ziggy Zone" actually. All the regulars know who Ziggy is, but how do the newbies relate "Ziggy Zone" to valuable information of watch movements?

Yes, I completely understand what you mean. But "general discussion" is still not the place to post watch reviews and any brand-specific questions (when these brands have their own section). But currently it's the only proper place if you want to create any discussion. I started THIS Rolex thread in the general discussion yesterday. But only because we don't have a Rolex subforum. It would have been strange to post it to the "photo gallery", don't you think? Perhaps the forum title should be "general replica discussion", since we already have "off topic"? Then it would be logical to post questions and stuff about smaller brands there as well. Perhaps the best solution is to have a read-only "Reviews" section with the brand subforums where all the detailed and helpful watch reviews could be double posted. You know... an archive-type of thing. Perhaps we could merge this with the "knowledge base"? But we definitely need the brand subforums, imho. Nothing wrong with just changing the "Photo gallery" subforum titles like I suggested. So there would be no need to move threads and rearrange anything. Just change the font and titles.

I disagree. Creating more and more subforums will only make it more complicated. Look what happened to Ziggy's reviews and breakdowns: there's perfect archive of fantastic information available, but very few newbies ever find them from Expert Area -> Ziggy zone (you only have to look at the number of views which are very low). It's sad but most members don't bother to search for anything. If they want IWC information they are going to look it from the IWC section, not from "reviews -> brand subgallery ->". Important reviews like Breitling Guide and Puggy's upcoming IWC guide should be pinned at this brand specific subforum... just like they're now (in the photo gallery). I agree smaller brands getting less attention is a problem, but it's not necessarily only because of the subforum arrangement. They just don't interest masses and "who has the best Sub and PO newbies", even if the review is good. I think keeping it as simple as possible is still the best option. Dividing and separating things is a problem. Or perhaps we should still consider keeping the general "Reviews" section available... if people feel uncomfortable posting reviews of smaller brands to "other brands". That could be a solution.

Why do you think "Other watch brands" subforum wouldn't draw any traffic and attention? And if people used the "view new posts" option this wouldn't be any kind of problem at all. Using "Other brands" subforums works in the gen forums as well (and in the RWI too). And if some brands starts to get more attention we could always add another brand subforum. That's what Thomas has been doing at TRC (he added Breitling and Omega when the demand grew big... and the rep catalog grew big and impressive enough).

I think it's a beautiful watch. But that you knew already. I have the white one... but it's the rep of the older no-date Speedy.

Hmm... didn't happen with the forum upgrade... but I guess transferring the "photo gallery" to proper subforums would be still fairly easy to do? I don't want to pester Thomas any more or I'll get banned.

You gotta listen to the "Golden Gate Park" version of the DMB cover. With Carlos Santana on electric guitar. That's one of the most impressive live performances I've heard. And believe me... I have thousands of concert bootlegs. The album is "Listener Supported". (Sorry for taking this offtopic).

Congrats. GMT is the only gen Rolex I'd consider buying... ever. And the only Rolex that haven't lost its appeal for me during the years. It's a magnificient watch. Wear it well!!!

Yes, it's the same watch on the pictures. But look what Space received from Andrew HERE. You should ask Andrew to verify if he actually ships out this rep with WHITE datewheel, despite using sales pictures of the correct black.

I agree. But for me rep collecting isn't about what other people think about my watches. Getting more accurate reps is just fun... and part of what's so great about this hobby. I don't even mind wearing complete fantasy watches from obscure brands... but Rolex is different. Probably because the flaws and problems with the reps are so widely discussed... and I find the whole Rolex subject fascinating. Perhaps one factory has a monopoly to Rolex reps (just like Puggy suggested) and the other creators don't want to step on their toes? It'a amazing how little we know about the creators of these watches. I know we can help them to improve the reps, but there has been very little straight interaction with the makers... until now. Thanks all for your thoughts. Yeah, this is like beating a dead horse (which is already in the glue factory). But it has to be asked every now and then. PS Randy: Those are amazing...but they're not reps.

Ahh...sounds melodramatic but at least that'd make sense. First time I heard this, actually.

Hmm... but if obscure, complicated and non-mainstream watch like HBB can sell enough to make profit... don't you think replicating a 1:1 Submariner / SeaDweller (they should be very simple watches to replicate) wouldn't be profitable for the factory? Or at least to the factory that takes such project?

Hey guys... if we think about the magnificient reps from the last 12 months what did we get? Omegas, IWC, Breitlings, TAG Link, Bell & Ross, Hublot, AP, PAMs (I guess) etc. But not even one single magnificient Rolex replica. Noobmariner is great and perhaps one of the best bargains ever in the rep world, but it's not playing in the same level with the new "super reps"... like the Ultimate PO, TAG Link, some IWC models or the upcoming Breitling Chronomat. The popularity of Rolex has also dramatically decreased here. If you forget our "modding masters" Ubi, Sherrington, Repaustria, etc. you don't see many members (save the newbies of course) buying or even talking about Rolex anymore. Wonder if the Rolex (as a brand) has lost appeal among the members, or is it just that the Rolex reps are generally quite pathetic? I'm not sure... what do you think? I mean... If you think about ExpII, Sub date, GMT Master II, etc. they're fairly close visually, but they still have some fundamental flaws. For example... how can the factories make the white dial Explorer II hour marker boxes grey instead of correct black? There are thousands and thousands of reference pictures of this dial all over the Google. And remember that HORRENDOUS dial and bezel insert print on the new model of GMT II replica? All Rolex Oyster reps have more or less inaccurate crown guards. Even the "fixed" ones usually look downright horrible. And the pearl usually looks like a pimple that's about to burst... even on the MBW's (I got utterly superior pearl from a $1 replacement insert), that endless crystal/rehaut issue... it's always wrong, etc. etc. To be honest Submariner has dramatically improved from the POS it used to be, but it's still not very close (compared to many other less popular reps). The best rep Submariner case is the TW best which is probably 4 years old!!! All new attempts have been counterproductive. You gotta admit it's pretty pathetic. And don't even get me started with the MBW's. I know it's bit of a "taboo" here due to their large fan base (I'm a fan too)... but let's be straight here: You need to buy grossly overpriced rep which is very inaccurate in "out of the box" condition. Then you need to invest significant amount of extra money to buy genuine parts (change almost everything) and on top of that find a skillful modder to make this very simple and basic diver watch to look even remotely right. And yet the MBW's are completely superior to the new models. Some of the new rep attempts of vintage Oysters are so pathetic that I don't know whether I should laugh or cry. And why do the factories refuse to forge the SeaDweller properly, despite all those thousands of requests. Our members won't buy the cheap-ass versions with Submariner case and bezel. Period. I completely understand the limitations that the factories have with the Daytona. By now most veteran members know to stay away from the "seconds at 6" Daytona... and the El Primero subdial spacing of the old Daytona is impossible to mimic with the 7750. DW Daytonas are supposedly great, but they're hard to source, very expensive and have shitty movements. I also understand the limitations of repping the TT models perfectly. So... what do we have left? Bunch of completely outdated reps that only uninformed noobs buy anymore. Perhaps the factories haven't paid attention to Rolex lately, and the "big bang" (no pun) is just waiting around the corner? I'm still a fan of the whole Rolex sports line and would like to buy some new Rolly reps. Right now the only Rolex I think it's worth keeping is the "old batch" GMT II (which at least visually is quite good, despite the wrong hand stack). ExpI is of course excellent too, but I don't quite enjoy wearing gents' watches in ladies' size. So come on factories... a nice glossy pearl, good rehaut and correct crown guards on a basic Sub can't be that hard to produce if you can replicate extremely difficult stuff like the "electric middlesection" on the TAG Link Chronograph dial perfectly. How about making the factory communicate with us through a dealer... like Angus did with the Hublot and Chronomat? PS: I could also be wrong about this whole thing. Because in most people's minds Rolex is synonymous to FAKE (or at least a potential fake) ...so perhaps we're much more anal and provincial about the flaws in Rolexes.. and more "liberal" with the other brands? Post your thoughts!!

It's genuine.

The no-date Sub has different crown guards too. Straighter and less curvature on the tops. Actually it's my favourite Sub... I prefer the dateless Subs for some reason. But all the reps of the 14060 (that I've seen) have been very inaccurate. Case, the OYSTER PERPETUAL font, pearl, crown guards, etc. all wrong. My father has a gen.

Who was that Lindsey again? These "stars" come and go... Not the most attractive woman, either (just mho).

Most of these heavy duty diver watches never go deeper than a swimming pool. Who really needs the 600m water resistance on the PO, SeaDweller or SuperOcean anyway? I've hear the real deepsea divers use Suunto diving computers and such.