RWG Technical

Mysterious Rolex Crown – is it real or a rep or something else… I have never claimed to know much about Rolex (or any other brand for that matter) when it comes to parts, styles, what is correct for what vintage etc… It’s not my thing, I feel I can hold my own when it comes to movement questions and repair, but beyond that, I am basically not in the know… I buy used Genuine Rolex crowns on ebay, and most of them are fine… I got these two in a while back, and when I tried to thread them onto a 7mm tube, they fit fine, but would not screw all the way in, and were getting hung up on the o’ring grove on the crown tube. Looking closer, I noticed that the threads on these were filling the complete inner area of the crown, so when the tube was screwed down, the threads were jamming up against the o’ring grove. On the other 7mm crowns I have, they are only threaded from about half way in, the rest is smooth, to allow the oring to seat in the crown… Specifications: 7mm diameter Rolex symbol, with crown and 3 dots Fits the 7mm crown tube Threaded all the way on the inner surface. Then as I looked closer, it “appeared” that the crown was covered in a “foil” or some type of metal…that’s weird, as the other crowns were one piece stainless…what is going on here… While speaking with ubiquitous the other day, I mentioned this to him, and he had never heard of this type of crown, and he suggested I try and remove the metal foil, and see what was underneath… So that is what I did… Now, the way I see it, I have either one of two things here: 1. Genuine – extremely rare crowns…(one which is not so valuable anymore…as you will see…) 2. Replica or aftermarket crowns, not worth anything… If indeed these are genuine, what type of crown tube fits them…anyone know?? Here is what I have, looks good in this view, nothing too unusual… Now, have a look at this view, note the threads on the inside right to the outer edge, and also the metal foil covering the crown… Now if these turn out to be valuable, I will blame Randy for telling me to remove the metal and see what was underneath… he figured the could be 2 dot crowns and worth a lot of money…or not… Here is the metal foil removed… If they do turn out to be valuable, I am hoping that I can put this part back on, and no one will be able to tell the difference…what do you think?? And here is what was under the metal foil, looks green due to rusting, but I think it’s actually stainless…will try and polish it up… So there you have it, I either ruined a historic piece, or not…I find it strange that under the foil is the same crown and dots printed as on the foil…how come for that??? Anyone have any idea on this one??? Thanks for the responses. RG

The ETA 7750 series (all of them) have running seconds at 9 - period... The modification that moves the running seconds from 9 to 6 is an Asian modification, with Asian parts (even an ETA Swiss Powered model uses Asian parts for the transfer gears) ..there is nothing to transfer from a Swiss 7750 - because the Swiss know the limits of the movement and dont' add these extra 5 gears... You can't get a Swiss 7750 with anything but running seconds at 9. If having running seconds at 6 was a feasable modification to this movement, would you not think the Swiss would have done it a long time ago??? I think there is a valid reason they have not done it, and you can see here why... Have a look at this post, it should (maybe) clear up this modifications...Daytona running seconds at 6 - Modifications On a brighter note, I removed the transfer gears for the running seconds, and the movement has been working for 24+ hours without a problem... so I think I know the fix for this one... RG

All the best Admin... RG

Just to clarify, as I did in the MBW modification post... I do NOT offer CG mod work, or case drilling etc...it's not my thing, actually I rather poke my eye out with a rusty fork, than do this type of work...what is on my www.ziggyinfo.com pdf file is what I do, no more... I have no interest, and enough to keep me busy with servicing and repairs etc, to not get into metal bashing... I have no idea where the watch was bought, and I dont' think it's fair to name names, as it could be a one-off...but it was a well made model, with the standard ETA etc...nothing that would indicate that it was made of softer metal...that is until you drill it... RG

All the best on all saints day (I think that's what today is...) RG

That was on my own one, can't remember how many I broke off on yours... RG

UPDATE I normally test and re-test watches following servicing... The one blue dial Portugese model has now also quit running ( I did get the silver dial one to finally work right...only to have the blue one quit on me...). I took it apart and it appears that the problem is the 5 extra gears for the running seconds...I'll know for sure tonight... These movements are taxed to the limits trying to drive these extra gears...and unfortunatly it's just to much... If there is any bright side to this, the watch has not left the shop yet, so I can get it fixed. Of the dozens and dozens of standard Asian 7750's I have serviced (and even the ones that mimic a 7753) I have never ever had a warranty return. In other words, they work fine after servicing and continue to work...yet these modified ones, in the Daytona and now in this model, are so troublesome... Frustrating as the repair person, and also frustrating as the owner of the watch... Will update when I get it running again. Thanks for reading, RG

Rollie Submariner with “problems” Got a newer version of the Rolex Submariner, and noted some concerns on this latest model. Pictures take up so much time to get done, that all I can offer is my comments. I am not sure exactly what model this one is or who it was from, but here is some of the stuff I noted… It looks like a standard Sub, and has an ETA 2836-2 inside. · Crystal is a one off special design, and if it ever breaks, your most likely not going to find a replacement. Instead of flush sides where the crystal fits into the case and compression ring, the crystal is stepped down where it goes into the case. In other words, the outer dimension you see when you look at the watch is not the size once the crystal is removed. There is actually a stepped notch cut into the outer circumference of the edge… the problem is, this is a unique design, and finding a replacement crystal is going to be difficult or impossible… it gets really scary when you have to remove the crystal, if it breaks...your FUBAR · Bezel removal. On most models, the bezel does not stick out past the case where the crown guard inner edge is located. So if you wanted to touch up the inner CG edges, you would only have to remove the crown tube and nothing else… On this newest model, the bezel sticks out farther than the inner CG edge and has to be removed for access to the inner CG’s. Problem is that the bezel is secured so tightly that removal is not only extremely difficult, but it always results in the actual bezel assembly getting bent during removal, and damage to the inner edge where the spring seats and the click notched area…this damage requires a lot of time to correct and get straight. What should be an easy job, pop the bezel off, and pop it back on, now turns into a major job trying to fix the parts back to normal after removal… Metal is not always what you think it is…in other words, there are variations in the quality of the Stainless Steel I have also noted some huge variances in the types of metal used on these watches…how I noted this was when I drilled the case hole for the new crown tube installation and tapping on the latest submariner. It was like drilling lead…1 minute and one drill bit to drill all 4 lugholes… easy stuff… The MBW models on the other hand, have whatever type of Stainless Steel that is extremely hard to drill, even with Gold Cobalt drills… Drilling the case lug holes is almost impossible on many MBW’s, in one instance, I broke 7 drill bits off and took 2 hours to drill the 4 holes… (In case you thinking I don’t know how to work with metal, consider that my cousin and I spend many hours in his father’s machine shop (professional machinist) using lathes, milling machines, welding etc, and I have over 25 years working on aircraft and helping with sheet metal repairs… I may not be a machinist but I think I know how to use a drill and cut holes, and buck rivets etc…) One watch breaks 7 bits and takes 2 hours to drill, the other one takes one bit and less than a minute??? Can you say…“One of these things is NOT like the other…” Although the drilling is fun and easy when the metal is just above the hardness of lead, the problem lies with the actual finish on the watch, soft metal = metal prone to scratches… A MBW on the other hand, once modified and polished holds it’s polish very well, these other ones with the soft metal, get scratches just from handling with fingers… Based on this, and not being a metallurgist, it’s not hard to figure out that there are variances in the type of Stainless being used… Seems as if we have taken some steps back with certain models and the quality of the parts in general…whereas the standard run of the mill Submariner a few months ago had a bezel that was easy to snap off, a crystal that could be replaced with an aftermarket one, and hard case metal, what I see now makes me wonder what is going on…why the changes… Just some thoughts from the workbench… Anyone else note this type of stuff? RG

As already stated, diameter and thickness are the deciding factors, you should measure the crystal with digital calipers and make sure that the replacement one is the same... You need to be within 0.10 mm tolerance on this measurement, a ruler is not going to work... RG

The only way to reset the hand, is to remove it and re-install it in the right location. Make sure you have the chrono in the stopped reset position when you install the hand. RG

Remove the caseback, and then remove the 4 screws that hold the bezel in place... Getting the crystal out of the bezel, is going to be challenging at best... If you want to replace the movement you need another modified one with seconds at 6, a 7750 and 7753 has running seconds at 9 not 6... RG

Thanks for the comments, with so many parts and pieces, I have to keep things organized, otherwise I can't do the work...or I end up buying parts that I already have in stock... My next goal, is to have a custom made watchmaker workbench at 39 inches high, with nice drawers so I can store most of my stuff close at hand...having it higher will also save my back and shoulders from hunching over all the time... Guess you looked closely at the workbench and saw something familiar...it will be done for the weekend... RG

...

I totally agree, there is no right or wrong answer, to each his own if they want to service a watch or not... I know many people that prefer to wear them as they are delivered, if and when the movement dies, they spend the servicing money on a newer version, and hopefully a better one as well... Our problem is that we are paying so little for the quality of the watches we have...even a ETA 7753 powered replica, at $600 or whatever is a steal, as my wholesale price for that movement is $600 alone...makes you wonder... If and when any of yours stops working, keep me in mind for the trash heap, I can use the spares... RG

The problem with that comparison is that your not taking into consideration the cost of the servicing of a movement. It does not matter how much you paid for the watch, it's heritage (rep or genuine) the cost and time and effort and tooling to service a "Fake" watch, is the same as servicing a "Real" watch. Actually most times it's 50% more effort to service a rep, as the parts quality and tolearnces is not there. It's the same as saying I bought a replica Ferrari for $1000, and then I find out the damm garage wants $1000 to change the oil and adjust the timing, I'll be dammed if I am going to pay $1000 to service my $1000 Ferrari... Comparing the cost of the replica to the cost of having the watch serviced is not a valid comparison, as just because you got the watch for $200, doesnt' mean you should expect to only spend $25 for getting it serviced...your better off throwing them out that having them maintained. In the end it's a choice, keep in mind that ETA has stated that the 7753 is NOT a current movement anymore, meaning no parts...and in 2009 ETA stops selling movements to anyone outside of the Swatch group...sure there will always be Asian powered watches, but try and get replacement parts - impossible... I am going to take some pics of my shop and the tooling I have and need to service a watch, and then you can see the level of $$$ needed to have a shop set up...then add to that the fact that there are fewer and fewer watchmakers around, the skills needed to do the work, etc... Just for fun, google "Watch repair prices..." and you will be shocked at what you will pay for mechanical watch servicing...It's the actual servicing your paying for, not how much you paid for the watch...if you paid $5000 for the watch, $200 would seem like a bargain... For me, as biased as I am towards servicing, I'll gladly keep mine clean and oiled, and expect them to last a lifetime, I don't have a Swiffer Sweeper, but use a old mop that I have to wring out, I prefer to not throw things out if I have to, but keep what I have...I think we are at the pinacle of replica's in terms of availablility and quality...it can't last forever...but I hope it will be the same in 5 years. 7753's are gone, the 2893-2 GMT's are gone, etc...there are only so many movements out there, once they are gone, that's the end of them... I'll gladly keep mine clean and oiled, as I know how hard it's going to be to get replacement ones in a few years time... RG

The key is not so much starting and stopping, as it is is the movement clean and oiled. If correctly oiled, and maintained at regular intervals, I dont' think starting and stopping it will make any difference... There is little to no inertia in a watch (compared to say a car motor), and unlike a car motor where the oil seeps and pulls away from the parts the longer it sits, the oil in a watch does not move, the quantities are so small, and if serviced correctly, the oil is held in place between the pivot and the jewel with capillary action...it does not move or seep out of the jewel - even if the watch is not used for a long time... Servicing at regular intervals is the key, if you want it to last... RG

It's not a big problem, if you follow a couple of suggestions, wind slowly (to prevent damage to the click wheels in the autowinder), and only wind enough to get the watch running... RG

What he said...the crown is slipping...no fix other than installing a new crown. Since it's an auto, best to keep handwinding to a minimum, as it hard on the crown. RG

Ok on the follow on. Unlikely to be magnetized, as modern movements contain Non-Magnetic balance hairsprings...this was an issue in the old days, but not really a problem anymore... Servicing it will take care of the fast running... RG

Ok on the oiling... My only comment would be that oiling a watch requires that it be totally taken apart, cleaned completely until there is no trace of oil anywhere, and then assembling it and oiling it with not only the correct qualtity, but the correct viscosity oil(s) i.e. it takes 5 types of oils and greases on this particular movement...I am not clear if you took the movement completely apart...if you did, congrats because this is one of the most difficult movements to work on, bar none... Based on the comment that you used one type of oil (I am not familiar with that particular oil) and the watch is running fast, I would say the reason is that it's running fast is due to over-oiling...with too thick an oil... This is an extremely small movement, and requires minute amounts of oil in each pivot...anything more than the amount in between these parantheses (.) especially in the escape and 2nd wheel pivots, and the movement is over-oiled... Running fast with that spacing between the arms, would indicate to me to have it either serviced by a watchsmith, or at least adjusted on a watch timer... RG

If you sent the watch out for a "lube Job" and it's running almost as fast as it was before you sent it out, then whoever did the work most likely didn't do anything... After servicing it's normal for the watch to run slower or faster than it was before servicing...and normally a watchmaker would adjust the beat and rate to specifications... Strange that after servicing you still have a fast running watch, and not only that, but it's as fast as it was before it went out...weird... In any event, comparing the 2671 to a 2836 is meaningless, as they are not the same movement... To adjust the rate without a timing machine is a long process, and because you have to move the regulator arm, very risky for damage to the hairspring.. If you look at your first picture, it tells me that there is a problem, because the two levers are so close together, and the watch is still running fast (fast watch is either out in beat or dirty or dry...). To adjust the watch, move LEVER A towards lever B, and this will make it run slower...how much to move I can't tell you, you will have to move it a little bit, and then time it and see how it does... If you end up with the two levers almost touching, then the chances that you had a "lube job" are next to nil, as normally these levers are quite far apart on a correctly serviced and oiled watch...maybe you got a "snow job" instead... RG

Excellent job, glad you did it yourself...next thing you know you'll get the hankering to tear down a movement... Looks fantastic. RG

I think this covers about all of it... How-To...crown installation... RG

Yes indeed the GMT gear is missing... I have new ones of these in my parts bin, bought them for the short models with the Tuxedo dials...let me know if you need one. RG

I feel for you Arthur, what a terrible situation to be in, from the start to actually getting the watch... What really bothers me is that I almost did work for this fellow...on a MBW no less... We need to keep ourselves informed of bad deals and dubious members. I do keep a detailed list of members who I would never do any work for, either based on my own experiences, or the comments from members I have known since the old RWG days...another name has been added to the list today... If this stuff stays behind doors and not out in the open, then we are setting up others to get taken by the same members over and over... To the MODS> Is there a way we can help everyone here by ensuring that everyone knows about the bad dealings of members, the same we do with the dealers...the main purpose of the forum is to help avoid being scammed, unfortunatly the shady dealers are not the only worries we have, some of our members are out to screw others... Hope it works out for you Arthur, RG