DG4813 - 6 or 8 ticks per second?

[Dudemeister]

I know that the DG4813 is listed as a 28,800 BPH movement, but is it? Has anyone actually put one on a timer to see what it vibrates at?

I recently purchased 2 DG4813 movements from Otto Frei. I know that the stem/cannon are too short for most uses, but I wanted to see if I can make one work in my submariner anyway. Before taking the sub apart, I wanted to check the sweep on the new movement, so I attached a dial and a seconds hand I had around from a donor watch.

To my surprise, the sweep is no different than the existing Asian 21J (which I assume is a DG2813). I looked at it from every angle , compared it to other watches, and I could see it's not as smooth as the other watches that have a 28,800 movement like and A7750. I then decided on a test to make sure my eyes don't deceive me.

I video taped the movement, then opened the video in a editor (Adobe Premiere). Using the frame advance I moved through the video one frame at the time while counting the second hand ticks. I first counted the ticks over a period of 5 seconds, then 15 seconds. I got 30 and 90 ticks respectively. That is exactly 6 ticks per second, NOT 8 like a 28,800 BPH movement is supposed to do.

The question is does a 28,800 BPH movement ALWAYS tick 8 times per second, or can you have one that only has 6 ticks/second?

Needless to say I'm very disappointed, and I don't plan to bother opening the Submariner until I get a real ETA.

Comments from the watch Gurus please ?!

[db1]

hey,

i'm not at all a guru in anything related to the inner works of movements, but as much as i know, if it's really a high-beat 28,800 movement, it should tick 8 times per sec, and 21,600 ticks 6 times per second.

and i have reps with both 28,800bph movements and 21,600bph movements, and i always can tell a diff. as the 28,800 movement sweeps slightly smoother.

last note: be aware that the smoothness of the sweeping doesn't always only has to do with the amount of BPH, i have a few asian made movement that are beating at 21,600 and are somehow sweeping smoother than other asian 21,600 watches i have, go figure probably something with the gearing..

as i heard that on a watch with a sub-secs the sweep is always smoother because it is not sweeping "directly" with the main sweeping part of the movement, or something like that.

are you sure you've got the high-beat version?

[Ronin]

Listen to it. Personally, there is a noticeable audible difference. At least to my ears.

[OmegaPOFL]

the DG 4813 should be high-beat... at 28.8k. yes listening to it is a way

if you have a watch with a gen eta 2824 or even a clone... those are 28.8k beat. so compare it to them

i dunno if offrei sells a different one... but Eurotimez definitely sells the high hand stack DG 4813...

[Dudemeister]

Listen to it. Personally, there is a noticeable audible difference. At least to my ears.

Well guys, your hearing must be real good. Me on the other hand after 50 years or so of auditory abuse (loud rock concerts, swimmers ear and so on), I can't hear a damn thing. Much as I tried I cannot hear the movement at all. I have a pocket watch that I can hear just fine, but not these watch movements.

But that is why I did the video test I talked about. That shows the second hand clearly ticking only 6 times per second. I'm trying to figure out how to post that video, so that you can see what I'm talking about.

[OmegaPOFL]

upload it on photobucket!

we should be able to see it then...

that sucks you got the low beat... dg 4813... might as well bought a 21j

if you are in need of the high beat one... email chris.@ eztimes i emailed him about 2 weeks ago and was going to buy it to swap out the movt in the milgauss...but decided to go for an eta. the price was $25 + 15 for shipping.. There's a chance, if you buy 2, he'll give you a discount on the shipping... IF YOU ASK.

good luck

[Dudemeister]

I don't have a Photobucket account, I usually host my own stuff. Anyway, after talking to the tech at Ofrei, and seeing the catalog of chinese movements, there doesn't appear to be a different 4813, just one. The version with taller stems and cannon are just modes made to accommodate the use of this movement on more than one watch type, but ultimately, that doesn't change the movement's beat.

So I somehow doubt that the movement I'd get from ETZ would have a different sweep than the one I have. Perhaps there are movements which vibrate at 28,800, but do not sweep smoothly, just the same that there are 21,600 movements that look much smoother than the regular asian 21J.

Here are some pics of the movement, as well as the video. The video is in Quicktime format, and was slowed down to about 20% the original speed (about 4fps).

DG4813 Movie

I fthe video doesn't stream properly, just right click on the link and save it.

Edited September 27, 2009 by Dudemeister

[Ronin]

Tip for listening for abused ears. Stethoscope. Your local auto parts store probably sells the car version.... A stethoscope with a solid metal rod attached to the end.

[sam1174]

I'm in the same boat. I just bought a 4813 from Ofrei assuming it was going to have a 28,800 beat. After getting it installed, it seemed as jerky as the old 21 jewel movement that was in the watch previously. I took several pics at different shutter speeds. At 1.0 sec shutter speed you can clearly see 6 tics of the second hand. The picture below is actually at a 1.3 second shutter speed, so it shows 8 tics, but ignore the first two. The third tic is right on top of the second marker, followed by 5 more tics. The next tic would have been right on top of the next second marker, so this is definitely a 21,600 movement, not a 28,800. I was a little unhappy. Additionally, the hand stack is much shorter on this movement than on the 21J I removed, so the hands are all smushed against the dial. I'm going to put the other movement back in because it was actually a better movement.

Edited September 27, 2009 by sam1174

[Dudemeister]

So are we the only ones that are recognizing this problem? Is everyone else under the false impression their 4813 movements are better than their 2813 (21,600), when in fact it's probably the same thing? Has anyone actually put one on an electronic timer to verify the beat?

Here are the possibilities as I see them:

• 
  
  
• DG4813 is a 21,600 BPH movement which could account for the 6 tick per second.
  
• DG4813 is a 28,800 BPH movement but what we got is not a DG4813, in which case Ofrei needs to fix the problem
  
• DG4813 is indeed a 28,800 BPH, but due to different gearing it only ticks 6 times per sec. instead of 8. In which case, what's the point of using it, considering all the other "shortcomings".
  
• There really are more than one version of the DG4813, and we have the wrong one.
  

I plan on going back to Ofrei one of these days and asking them to test the movement. The problem is that they're only open 'till 5:00PM, so I have to take time off work to go there. I'll keep everyone posted once I find out more info.

[P4GTR]

maybe we can purchase Asian ETA's separately from a dealer. This could be a fantastic option. First we'd need:

-confirm they are direct swaps for the Asian 2813 21j's.

-Find a dealer that can supply at a reasonable price.

[shultz]

As I want to upgrade my DSSD with asian DG movement: Does anybody know if an ETA 2836 will fit? I have no clue what measurements the DG mvts. come with and what stem will be needed.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

[kbh]

Here's a picture of a DG4813 sourced from AJoeSmith. Definitely 8 beats per second.

For comparison, here's A21j movement.

[FxrAndy]

So are we the only ones that are recognizing this problem? Is everyone else under the false impression their 4813 movements are better than their 2813 (21,600), when in fact it's probably the same thing? Has anyone actually put one on an electronic timer to verify the beat?

Here are the possibilities as I see them:

• DG4813 is a 21,600 BPH movement which could account for the 6 tick per second.
  
• DG4813 is a 28,800 BPH movement but what we got is not a DG4813, in which case Ofrei needs to fix the problem
  
• DG4813 is indeed a 28,800 BPH, but due to different gearing it only ticks 6 times per sec. instead of 8. In which case, what's the point of using it, considering all the other "shortcomings".
  
• There really are more than one version of the DG4813, and we have the wrong one.
  

I plan on going back to Ofrei one of these days and asking them to test the movement. The problem is that they're only open 'till 5:00PM, so I have to take time off work to go there. I'll keep everyone posted once I find out more info.

If it is a 28800 bph movement it ticks 8 times a second, the 4813 is to the best of my knoledge a 28800 movement therefore it ticks 8 times a second, if yours does not then i would question what you have bought

maybe we can purchase Asian ETA's separately from a dealer. This could be a fantastic option. First we'd need:

-confirm they are direct swaps for the Asian 2813 21j's.

-Find a dealer that can supply at a reasonable price.

As I want to upgrade my DSSD with asian DG movement: Does anybody know if an ETA 2836 will fit? I have no clue what measurements the DG mvts. come with and what stem will be needed.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

An ETA movement copy or not is not a direct replacement as the hand sizes are different, the dial feet are in different places and you will have to change the stem as well, you will get the stem when you buy the new movement though.

So you will need to remove the dial feet, and use dial dots or some thing similar to secure the dial

source a set of hands that fit the ETA

trim the stem and fit it to the crown

I belive i gave the same information in the other thread yesterday as well

[OmegaPOFL]

im thinking ofrei send you 21j movements...

you should start asking them dude.

[Dudemeister]

First let me say that I love the idea of the long time exposure to capture the ticks, I don't know why I didn't thin of that. I don't have a high end SLR digital camera, but I tried different settings with my little Kodak and I think I managed to get the proof.

I'm not convinced that the movement I got is not a DG4813, it sure looks like it, and I doubt that Ofrei would pull off a switch, they are far too reputable a company to stoop to this kind of thing. But I also know this watch only ticks 6 times per second which would indicate it's not a 28,800 bph movement.

I also took pics of my "cheap" SOSF, which is supposed to have a Asian 21J in it. This always looked to my untrained eye as a very smooth sweep. The pictures show a nice continuous blur, I can't make out any individual ticks, so I assume that it's because it has more ticks per second (8 perhaps ?? )

I will definitely go back to Ofrei and have them test the movements right there. On the other hand, I'm not sure I'll be able to convince them to take it back. They never claim the DG4813 is a 28,800 movement. In fact I didn't see one single claim about the beat of this movement anywhere on any vendor's web site. The only specifications given are the diameter, the height, the hands size, and the number of jewels (22). All the talk about it being 28,800 has come from various postings on this and other forums.

Anyway, that's about it for me, I'm done with this movement. If I ever decide to improve on something I bought, I'll go for a real ETA movement.

[jmb]

My first attempt with 4813 was from Cousins. I bought a 2813 and 4813, the 4813 was gold in color and the 2813 was silver. I then ordered a 4813 and 2813 from ofrei and both were gold in color. I e-mailed eurotimez and they have the high cannon 4813 and are supposed to be sending me an invoice for a couple. Once this fiasco is finished I will have spent more money experimenting with movements than the freakin' watch cost! Don't reckon I'll ever buy another watch with 12 hour warranty no matter how good the price...

[jmb]

An e-mail response from eurotimez claims the 4813 to be a 28,800 movement...

[Dudemeister]

An e-mail response from eurotimez claims the 4813 to be a 28,800 movement...

That's fine, but I for one I'm not going to throw good money after bad. I have no faith in this movement.

Let us know when you get it what you think of it.

[jmb]

I have ordered them but not sure how long it will take to receive them - couple weeks I s'pose. Right now I have the Noob put back together with a 2813 movement, which I suppose is still an "upgrade" to the cheap-a$$ movement that comes in Noobs...